Male Spider Mate

The wife and I are looking into getting a female mate for our male spider around/after July when the reptile show makes its way down here or online. Get them now so we can raise them and breed when time. We don't like the albino or pied morphs.

Woma
Orange Het Ghost
Het Ghost
Mojave

I'm looking at the orange het ghost or het ghost to shoot for the honeybee's. We really liked the honeybee.

The woma we figured we would get woma or spiders or this "Spinner Woma" couldn't find pictures of it. Like woma's.

The Mojave just looked like a cool snake. Liked the dry scale look and pattern of this snake.

These are the only ones so far we have found that we liked and are in need of assistance from you all in choosing the best possible mate with the best looking offspring.

What would you all recommend and what would it make?

27 views not one reply. Man I was sure over night someone had 2 cents on what they would get. Was my question off? Was I being dumb? I want to buy my second and breed my third.

What will make a honeybee the orange het ghost or the het ghost? I figure the orange but all they had said was het ghost.

Hi,

To be honest you would probably be better saving a little longer and getting a visual ghost if honeybees are your plans.

With the het ghosts all the offspring are only poss hets - which means you have no gaurantee that any male spider offspring you get in the first pairing will be actual hets.

Or, if you can stretch to it a codom/ visual ghost combo would be a great investment for the future. A pastel orange ghost for example would have a chance at bumblebees, spiders, normals and pastels all het ghost in the first generation and ghost killer bees, pastel honeybees (no idea on the name of those ), bumblebees, spiders, pastels, super pastels, superpastel ghosts, pastel ghosts,ghosts, normals and honeybees in the second.

And I probably missed some combo's in there.


dr del

Get something dominant or co-dominant to breed to him.

Orange Ghost you will need the time to raise them and then breed them back to each other to get anything visual.
With a Mojave or pinstripe you can get visual morphs in that clutch. BUT recessive hold value more so it's your choice.

Orange Ghost and Pastel are what I plan to get for my male Spider. Or you could get a enchi pastel and go for a stinger bee

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/stinger-bee/

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Get something dominant or co-dominant to breed to him.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

To be honest you would probably be better saving a little longer and getting a visual ghost if honeybees are your plans.

With the het ghosts all the offspring are only poss hets - which means you have no gaurantee that any male spider offspring you get in the first pairing will be actual hets.

Or, if you can stretch to it a codom/ visual ghost combo would be a great investment for the future. A pastel orange ghost for example would have a chance at bumblebees, spiders, normals and pastels all het ghost in the first generation and ghost killer bees, pastel honeybees (no idea on the name of those ), bumblebees, spiders, pastels, super pastels, superpastel ghosts, pastel ghosts,ghosts, normals and honeybees in the second.

And I probably missed some combo's in there.


dr del

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Sorry for any frustration,
2kdime:
What's the difference between dominant and co?

Dr. Del:
After all that I believe I need to just cool my jets research a lot more increase my chances of success in the future. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to explain that. I had read something like this:
http://www.ballpython777.com/honeybee/honeybee.html
Do you interbreed these snakes? Haven't figured that out yet but thats what the article sounded like.

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then raise one of those and breed it back to a ghost

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Originally Posted by MitsuMike

Orange Ghost you will need the time to raise them and then breed them back to each other to get anything visual.

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Thanks everyone for chiming in here. Any thought's on the woma? What's the offspring woma and spiders? Like my spider is pretty dark and i'm thinking a redish brown woma with yellow orange top stripe pattern. If the parents are really dark does that play a part in the offspring or is it kind of random?
Sorry so noobish!

http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics_101.html

The point of what I'm getting at is if you breed your Spider to say a Pastel, you can get Bees.

If you breed him to something recessive such as an albino, you'll get normals and spiders all het for albino.

Im just shooting for something visual, and not hets.

Its up to you which way you want to go with your projects.

I am not a fan of hybrids so I cant comment on the woma

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Originally Posted by -C@jun-

Do you interbreed these snakes? Haven't figured that out yet but thats what the article sounded like.

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There is absolutely no reason, what so ever to interbreed(line-breed). Yes people do it. It is understandable when you are trying to prove out a wild caught morph or a dinker, but there is no reason beyond that. Some people do it because they are in a hurry and or don't want to spend the money on visuals or the proper amount of breeders. No reason what so ever period on a co-dom or dom snake to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics_101.html

The point of what I'm getting at is if you breed your Spider to say a Pastel, you can get Bees.

If you breed him to something recessive such as an albino, you'll get normals and spiders all het for albino.

Im just shooting for something visual, and not hets.

Its up to you which way you want to go with your projects.

I am not a fan of hybrids so I cant comment on the woma

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Very interesting link there I will read over that from time to time until I understand it all. Thanks

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

There is absolutely no reason, what so ever to interbreed(line-breed). Yes people do it. It is understandable when you are trying to prove out a wild caught morph or a dinker, but there is no reason beyond that. Some people do it because they are in a hurry and or don't want to spend the money on visuals or the proper amount of breeders. No reason what so ever period on a co-dom or dom snake to do it.

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Thanks for this. I was starting to see this. I can't get a snake to breed and interbreed it to get what I want. Best thing to do is buy what I want and keep it at that and add some select offspring from the breeders.

Butter pastel is a good combo..lemon blast is another..both will give you quite a few options..pewter is another with out breaking the bank;)

Cajun-

Hers a good couple pages written up by NERD that is pretty easy to understand.

Read the first page, then continue on to learning more about dominant and co-dominant stuff and so on and so forth

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Cajun-

Hers a good couple pages written up by NERD that is pretty easy to understand.

Read the first page, then continue on to learning more about dominant and co-dominant stuff and so on and so forth

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

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Thanks 2kdime I feel like a idiot. A lot better article. Easier for a infant! LOL

Hi,

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

I am not a fan of hybrids so I cant comment on the woma

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I'm pretty sure he meant the woma ball python morph rather than a woma python. ;)

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

There is absolutely no reason, what so ever to interbreed(line-breed). Yes people do it. It is understandable when you are trying to prove out a wild caught morph or a dinker, but there is no reason beyond that. Some people do it because they are in a hurry and or don't want to spend the money on visuals or the proper amount of breeders. No reason what so ever period on a co-dom or dom snake to do it.

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I respectfully disagree. :)

When you are dealing with co-dom/ dom/ recessive three gene combo's the chances of you finding an unrelated one to buy is very low. And zero if you happen to be the first person trying to make the combo.

I don't feel it is realistically within everyones means to produce multiple combo's like that given the investment in individual animals it would require.

I'm all for adding fresh blood whenever possible but I also can see situations where the chances of it happening are low for the financial or space reasons you mention.

And as long as it is not done generation after generation I don't think there is a massive risk to it either.

But hey I've been wrong before. :cool:


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



I'm pretty sure he meant the woma ball python morph rather than a woma python. ;)



I respectfully disagree. :)

When you are dealing with co-dom/ dom/ recessive three gene combo's the chances of you finding an unrelated one to buy is very low. And zero if you happen to be the first person trying to make the combo.

I don't feel it is realistically within everyones means to produce multiple combo's like that given the investment in individual animals it would require.

I'm all for adding fresh blood whenever possible but I also can see situations where the chances of it happening are low for the financial or space reasons you mention.

And as long as it is not done generation after generation I don't think there is a massive risk to it either.

But hey I've been wrong before. :cool:


dr del

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Thanks for your input here del. I figured there must have been interbreeding going on. I kept thinking about it last night:"Well how are these breeders getting all these combos etc." It would be expensive unless they trade but that just refreshes the blood line somewhat with his next.

My vote is for a lemon pastel or butter/pastel. I'm a big fan of bees.

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Originally Posted by Agent73

My vote is for a lemon pastel or butter/pastel. I'm a big fan of bees.

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My lil brother is getting a lemon pastel he to wants a bee. So we can swap snakes to breed.

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Originally Posted by -C@jun-

My lil brother is getting a lemon pastel he to wants a bee. So we can swap snakes to breed.

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Sounds like a good plan, good luck!

You seem pretty stuck on the woma ball python. Have u ever seen a Woma Spider Ball?
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html

IMO they don't look that good.
If you want to get visuals that first season and not HET's then go with
Mojave
Cinny
Fire
Lesser
Pinstripe
Normal

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Originally Posted by -C@jun-

i'm thinking a redish brown woma with yellow orange top stripe pattern

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Sounded like I even had a good idea of the pattern I wanted if I would go with a woma. See I like the spider woma patterns. Heres a NERD thing of the clutches.
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html

What would be the combos for a fire as well as a mojave to the spider?

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Originally Posted by -C@jun-

Sounded like I even had a good idea of the pattern I wanted if I would go with a woma. See I like the spider woma patterns. Heres a NERD thing of the clutches.
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html

What would be the combos for a fire as well as a mojave to the spider?

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http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...er-mojave.html
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html

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Originally Posted by dr del

And as long as it is not done generation after generation I don't think there is a massive risk to it either. dr del

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The only problem, and I think it's one that most people don't think about, is this;
lets say I line breed my co-dom/ dom/ recessive male snake back to his mother, (because I don’t want to purchase/care for a few more snakes to do it without line breeding) I now have inbred offspring. Now I sell these offspring to someone else. This person now has the same dilemma. Do I line breed or do I take the time/effort/money to get what I want? Now they too line breed this already inbred snake. It goes on and on down the line. Generation after generation.
So you see you may not want to line breed generation after generation, but you are setting it up for others to do it.

One of our goals is to produce Dreamsicles. We are getting the snakes to do it without line breeding. Yes it will take longer and will cost more in the long run, but we are going to produce (in our own opinion) healthier more genetically sound animals than some others may.

We choose not to line breed. Now If we ever end up with a one of a kind snake that we want to prove out. Then of course we may have to line breed. This is in our opinions the only time it should be acceptible to do so.

Since you like mojo's what about a lesser or butter female to pair with your male spider? You could also get a pinstripe female and try to make spinners :gj:

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Originally Posted by Boanerges

Since you like mojo's what about a lesser or butter female to pair with your male spider? You could also get a pinstripe female and try to make spinners :gj:

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Yeah could. The wife doesn't like the spinners.

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Originally Posted by -C@jun-

Yeah could. The wife doesn't like the spinners.

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The Pinstripe is definitely out then - lol

I'm really leaning towards a orange ghost to make the spider ghost then to the ghost for honeybees. I just love the snake. The brother is looking at a pastel. I will probally go with a lessor I like the platinum ones. The butters are another gorgeous snake.

Hi,

Just to point out that spider to orange ghost will only give you spider het ghosts. But yes breeding one of those back to the ghost mother will give you a shot at honeybees.

Also you cannot make a platinum from only lesser platinums - you need the extra gene as well.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The only problem, and I think it's one that most people don't think about, is this;
lets say I line breed my co-dom/ dom/ recessive male snake back to his mother, (because I don’t want to purchase/care for a few more snakes to do it without line breeding) I now have inbred offspring. Now I sell these offspring to someone else. This person now has the same dilemma. Do I line breed or do I take the time/effort/money to get what I want? Now they too line breed this already inbred snake. It goes on and on down the line. Generation after generation.
So you see you may not want to line breed generation after generation, but you are setting it up for others to do it.

One of our goals is to produce Dreamsicles. We are getting the snakes to do it without line breeding. Yes it will take longer and will cost more in the long run, but we are going to produce (in our own opinion) healthier more genetically sound animals than some others may.

We choose not to line breed. Now If we ever end up with a one of a kind snake that we want to prove out. Then of course we may have to line breed. This is in our opinions the only time it should be acceptible to do so.

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i know there are 100 threads on this, but I'll say this again.

Reptiles are much simpler than mammals are. Line or inbreeding, even for multiple generations seems to have very little, if any ill effects (this does NOT count problems that morphs already have; kinking in caramels, one eyed albino boas, etc).

Corn snakes, I've read, have been inbred for about 11 generations (possibly 12 or 13 now since its been a few years since i read this article that for the life of me i can not find again im TRULY sorry :/ ).

I;ve taken genetics classes and read up on this as it pertains to humans. In and line breeding increase the possibility of something "bad" being passed on as well as something "good". Genetic bottle necks are one of the ways new species come about (think of island animal populations). Terrestrial animals can't just go over to the mainland to get some new blood into the mix. Birds have it differently, but even the galapagos finches had to stay there long enough and breed in order to develop all the different types.

If inbreeding through multiple generations is a problem for you, don't sell a customer a 1.1 pair of something they intend to breed together that are related. (any hets or codoms). Except.. some animals (like the spider) only originated from a single WC animal, they're all related somehow because they carry the same gene, However, being a domimant, no one really bothers to breed spiders together. They're probably one of the most outcrossed bp morphs there are.

Other issues you run into are making sure your genes are compatible, with ghosts especially. There are 4 or 5 different types, 2/3 of which wont work with another, multiple lines of axanthic, etc.

I do plan on doing some limited inbreeding in my stock when i start breeding. One of the species I keep isn't very common, especially as a captive bred animal. Do i inbreed or work with wild caught stock, do i do both? who knows.

I have the upmost respect for the way you plan on doing your dreams--dont get me wrong. It seems lsike a great way to get some amazing outcrossed morphs.

Line breeding is the way genetics are refined, look at almost any type of animal bred for something (i wouldn't include domestic dogs in this, as that is an ENTIRELY different thing and i've got my own hangups on that) but cats, birds, fish, rodents, etc. Use the traits you like, get rid of the ones you don't. If you happen to find an amazing animal with the same traits unrealated to your current stock, holy jesus jump on that! :) I'm just saying we aren't all that lucky.

(look at crested geckos for some amazing line bred traits).

Hopefully that wasn't too long and off topic.

To the OP, honey bees are a great project. Take a look at the axanthic killer bee on NERD's page too. super sweet. :D

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

To the OP, honey bees are a great project. Take a look at the axanthic killer bee on NERD's page too. super sweet. :D

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Thanks for the info and the confidence. That killerbee is like all the bee's are great looking snakes.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just to point out that spider to orange ghost will only give you spider het ghosts. But yes breeding one of those back to the ghost mother will give you a shot at honeybees.

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Rgr thats what I originally set my mind on might as well go all the way. The lessor platinum thing was just another snake I would probally buy not try to breed out. I just want a little collection so I can keep them in 30-50gal tanks. 8 to be exact.