What's up with all the underfed snakes

This may not sit well with some, BUT, I'm astounded by how many 6 month old and older 200 gram snakes are for sale on Kingsnake and Fauna :confused:
When I ask for hatch dates and weights and consistently get responses of 6-7 months old and 200 grams it turns me off immediately.
So many ads state the year they were born and weights and then when you ask the month is turns out to be 7 months old and 200 some grams.

I've gotten responses on numerous clowns, albinos, super pastel yellow bellies and several others,
ALL underfed IMO. :mad: and all from large breeders.

What's up with that?
Would you buy a snake that's been underfed knowing you were going to be breeding it, especially a female?

Is 200 grams at 6 months old underfed? or am I just over-feeding all of mine because they eat every 5-7 days and get to 400 + grams in 6 months :P

Gotta love the catch phrase "well started" lol :confused:
As always..Caveat emptor...

I'm not a breeder but I would imagine that if one was a large breeder that would also mean raising your own food source, so so far as them not feeding them all that often (underfeeding) I'm stumped. It wouldn't be a money issue - (less capitol investment in a given animal means higher profit margins come sale time) that would only could come into play if they bought feeders like I do. I dunno. Anybody else?

I agree, it puts me off, too. I can't imagine why a breeder would be too cheap to feed a baby snake every week. And if they are feeding it weekly, then why is the baby so small? I would think that there was something wrong. Either way, I don't want to deal with that.

yea thats weird, ill have snakes that gain 100g+ in about one month (not power-feeding)

I've noticed that both the snakes I've bought from reputable breeders were under weight and small for their ages. And both looked a lot more robust in their pics. They are doing well now and growing like weeds with regular meals. But I definitely think the breeders I bought them from could have given them a better start. I know they have lots of snakes to feed, but how many times can individual animals get overlooked? I don't think there's any excuse.

I've noticed the same thing.

When you're buying, ask if feed/shed/etc records are available. Doesn't matter how big the breeder is, they should be tracking this stuff, for the good of their customers and for the good of their animals.

Maybe ask if they're offering every 5 or 7 days. Could be underfeeding, or could be a problem eater.

Not all snakes will eat every week. We have 2 08 males that are under 300g. We have an 09 female that’s over 600g. So you can see there can be a big difference.
Some snakes just naturally have a healthier appetite. In the wild they will not be eating every week. Really they would only be eating once or twice a month.

And just because a snake doesn't eat every week, doesn't mean it's a problem feeder.

How many snakes have you raised OP?

Have you determined that these undersized snakes are unhealthy or are they just smaller than you would like them to be?

If they're just too small, in your opinion, what do you base this opinion on?

If there are health issues, what have you done about that?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How many snakes have you raised OP?

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30 to 40 from hatchlings to a year old.
Almost every one of them reached 400 grams at 6 months, the ones that didn't were obviously picky eaters.
I feed rats only except to hatchlings that start out on asf fuzzies.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Have you determined that these undersized snakes are unhealthy or are they just smaller than you would like them to be?

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smaller than I'd like them to be :)
I'm speaking of animals on the market, not mine or any I bought.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If they're just too small, in your opinion, what do you base this opinion on?

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On all the hobbyist that show off their snakes growth on here and many other sites as well, and with my limited knowledge of keeping them.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If there are health issues, what have you done about that?

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I haven't had any health issues that needed a vet, but if I did I have a local Vet that isn't too far from me that deals with reptiles and has a fairly good rep for doing so.

This isn't only my opinion, just me asking, "what up with that?" on snakes weights that are on the market ;)

i have 6 snakes all around the same age and their weight vary greatly. for comparison. i have two females that were born in june of 09 and one it 600 gmas. the other is around the 1300 mark. the smaller female is a picky eater, only goes for mice. the other will eat anyhing that you put in front of her. but i still only offer once a week to her like the rest. i guess she just puts every gram of food to work.

Many breeders believe in "slow growing" pythons to make them live long healthy lives. Whether "slow grown" = "underfed" is really up to the individual I guess. I personally would prefer to see a baby fed no more often than once every 7 days, and consider feeding any more often too much, but this is only my own opinion, and I wouldn't dream of telling someone NOT to feed their snakes more often or less often.

Also, some places will "maintanance feed" animals which doesn't promote quick growth at all, because they feed them less often, I ASSUME to save on feeding/cleaning/whatever.

Maybe the babies that get big quick naturally on the same feed schedule are etiher kept back or sold first, and thus only slower growing babies are on the market still?

Just ideas for thought.

But, that just goes back around to 'something is wrong'. I'm sorry, but I consider a hatchling that will not eat every week (when not in shed) to be a problem feeder. It's not an animal I want in my breeding program.

I also see no reason to buy an animal that has been fed just the minimal amount necessary to keep it healthy without allowing it to grow properly. If I'm buying a baby ball, it's because I want a good future breeder--I want a big, fast-growing, healthy baby, not an undersized baby that doesn't eat reliably, or won't grow well for some other reason.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If I'm buying a baby ball, it's because I want a good future breeder--I want a big, fast-growing, healthy baby, not an undersized baby that doesn't eat reliably, or won't grow well for some other reason.

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Agreed.

I see this too. and i not sure what it is at time people being cheap, hard to get proper sized rodents( I know ifi ask for a large mouse I get a small one ).. I seen this too. I adopted a snake out to a girl who wanted one but returned it like 3 months or so later cause they could not get a permit to keep it ( De funny and the upper counties are funnier.) but the snake left my care at about 150 grams ( i kept the nonfeeding sibling ) when I got the snake back it was only 350 grams and my problem eater had turn around and eating lke a champ ( never turning the meal down) at about 700 grams. now they about the same weight since I offer both food weekly and at first givign the little returned one a mouse as atreat mid week till she caught up with the other snake.

Sadly I don't keep feeding records too much even with the dephi program ( cause it not in the reptile room ) and i always mutli tasking when I feed,clean and such things with th snakes. ( might be why I so use to getting bitten since i smell like a mouse or rat from feeding the other snakes lol.. and the rats are lbiting me cause I smell like something that will kil lthem ( not that thety far off) so I so use to getting bit I don't even think 2x about it lol)

It seems some breeders "maintanence" feed their hatchlings. I guess by definition, it is enough food to maintain the Ball baby. I would say if a breeder hatches a baby Ball and feeds it enough so it does not looks skinny, so that it looks proportional, that is fine. Then, the person who buys the snake can feed it as much as they want.

My babies get fed two times a week for the first several months, and then once a week when they take larger prey items. The '09 PDH male I just sold was only about 50 grams smaller than my largest 09 female holdback. I knew I was going to sell the male because I have a 100% DH male, his father, but I fed him like he was staying here. I do try to feed my females a bit more than my males anyway, but I feed all my hatchlings pretty much the same. I would rather do it this way, then maintanence feed the babies I intend to sell, and have to try and pump them up right before I ship them.

I recently picked up a snake that was not quite skin and bones, but WAY under what he should have been...he looked kind of skinny and felt empty. Not cool.

I like to "go with my gut" on this one. If a breeder is someone that I trust, but the snake is on the small side, I would/will ask about its feeding response. Some breeders and keepers use more of a "maintenance" diet, as opposed to a "power-feeding" diet.

An underfed snake will look thin. If a snake is relatively robust and has a slight chub to it, that is fine with me. If you can see its spine.. no.

I too would be put off though, on undersized-for-their-age snakes. Although growth does vary (I saw that in my clutches that I have produced.) Usually an undersized snake, in my experience, comes with an explanation from the seller; I myself had to do that when selling my pinstripe, because she was not a great eater at first.

Sometimes snakes grow slowly, with no health issues.

And sometimes, snakes are not as frequent of feeders.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

an animal that has been fed just the minimal amount necessary to keep it healthy without allowing it to grow properly.

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I dissagree with this statement. As I stated in my post earlyer not all snakes eat as often as others do. Just because the snake is not as big as you think it should be for its age, doesn't mean it has not grown properly. A wild ball python is probably only going to eat once or twice a month and they grow at a normal steady rate. The females are not getting to breeding size for at least 3 to 4 years of age. It is not "natural" for a female ball to be breeding size by 1 to 2 years of age. That is a spead up growth rate, which is not healthy or proper.

Some of mine eat more than others. The ones that eat more get bigger quicker. Just because a snake doesn't eat every time you throw some food in his face doesn't mean it's not a solid snake. I don't expect my males to be at breeding size in four months and females in Fifteen. To say that a snake who doesn't eat every week is a poor feeder and shouldn't be in a breeding program is a matter of opinion, but I happen to disagree.
I like to let them grow at their own pace.

When in doubt, ask for a feeding schedule sheet.
Most big breeders will have a record of when they ate. From that you can see for yourself if it's a picky eater, a good eater but slow grower, or underfed.

I never buy without a feeding schedule. It tells me when, how often, and what size they were fed, and also tells me the breeder keeps good records.

Most of the babies I've had have been between 200-600grams by the age of 7 months. Some eat less than others, I had a bumblebee that refused to eat much for the fist 4 months, and at 7 months was only 200. She started eating again and gained a lot in a short time on the same food.

Just depends.

I have noticed this as well. With a lot of Craigslist snakes as well, supposed to be 2 years old and only 300 grams.

There are a lot of arguments that can be made on this, from underfeeding, maintainence feeding, whatever.

I also think that most people will hold-back the babies that grow the fastest for themselves, and sell the smaller babies first. I have two '09 females that are within 1 month of each other in age. My older girl is 900 grams and eats like a horse. The younger is barely 600 grams, but she's a picky eater and always has been.

I don't necessarily condemn people who seem to underfeed their babies. I just ask more questions of them before I buy.

Gale

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

This may not sit well with some, BUT, I'm astounded by how many 6 month old and older 200 gram snakes are for sale on Kingsnake and Fauna :confused:
When I ask for hatch dates and weights and consistently get responses of 6-7 months old and 200 grams it turns me off immediately.
So many ads state the year they were born and weights and then when you ask the month is turns out to be 7 months old and 200 some grams.

I've gotten responses on numerous clowns, albinos, super pastel yellow bellies and several others,
ALL underfed IMO. :mad: and all from large breeders.

What's up with that?
Would you buy a snake that's been underfed knowing you were going to be breeding it, especially a female?

Is 200 grams at 6 months old underfed? or am I just over-feeding all of mine because they eat every 5-7 days and get to 400 + grams in 6 months :P

Gotta love the catch phrase "well started" lol :confused:
As always..Caveat emptor...

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May I ask how many snakes you have produced and how many years of snake keeping you have under your belt ??

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I agree, it puts me off, too. I can't imagine why a breeder would be too cheap to feed a baby snake every week. And if they are feeding it weekly, then why is the baby so small? I would think that there was something wrong. Either way, I don't want to deal with that.

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May I ask how many snakes you have produced and the number of years of keeping under your belt ?

Most of my 09's are around 300g (some smaller). Most of mine are late 09's because my season is usually later down here in FL, but all of babies get fed once a week and are a perfectly healthy weight. Not thin, and not plump. I used to fed my hatchlings at least every 5 days (sometimes more), but now that I have more snakes and am not in such a rush to get things up to breeding size anymore I have slowed down on feeding.

200g at 6 months is a bit small IMO, but if the breeder is feeding mice once a week it is not really anything crazy and certainly does not mean the snakes are mistreated.

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Originally Posted by Tim Mead

May I ask how many snakes you have produced and how many years of snake keeping you have under your belt ??

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I already answered this question.

I thought I asked a fairly legit question :confused:

Until you have walked in the shoes of a large breeder,, Should you judge a large breeder ?? Theres reasons for everything in life and a wise man will figure out why without causing ripples..When one can not figure something out for themselves is the time to ask for help with such..:snake:

not mine are big & fat!

I have animals that were hatched in Oct of 2009 and as of last night they are 273-299 grams and they get fed every 5 days. I can promise you they aren't just fed..No if I were to feed them only every 7 - 10 days like some breeders the I could imigane they would be far smaller..

Just my two cents

You may see more males that you feel are smaller than you think they should be. They don't take as long and don't need the weight that females need for breeding, so they are fed enough to be healthy but not chubby. Many don't want fat male breeders either as they can sometimes be lazy breeders.
Using the rule of thumb I read in this thread earlier (100g per month) the the average 2yr old bp would be about 2400g. At 3yrs it would be at about 3600g. That's bigger than the biggest female that most of the members here have. Once they get to a certain weight they sometimes level off for a bit and then you may see a growth spurt. Raising several snakes from hatchling to one year old is nice, but they don't always continue to grow at the same rates they did earlier in life.

So your basis for determining if a snake is underfed is its weight and age? I assume from your opinion that you are focused on how fast you can 'grow' a snake.

My opinion is different.

My basis for determining if a snake is underfed is based on appearance from my experience with reptiles. Who cares how old a snake is if it does not have the appearance of an 'underfed' animal? If the animal looks like it is well fed....then fine with me.

Just sounds like a simple difference in opinion to me....but if weight and age are so important, why not factor in length for every snake? Judge 'underfedness' on an average weight per unit of length per age.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Is 200 grams at 6 months old underfed? or am I just over-feeding all of mine because they eat every 5-7 days and get to 400 + grams in 6 months :P

Gotta love the catch phrase "well started" lol :confused:
As always..Caveat emptor...

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I have no way of knowing if your snakes are overfed.

In the same token, YOU have no way if knowing a 200 gram snake at 6 months is underfed.

Well started means a lot more than how much weight your animal has put on in the first 6 months of it's life.

Caveat emptor indeed.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

why not factor in length for every snake? Judge 'underfedness' on an average weight per unit of length per age.

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Kind of like a snake BMI index? I like it.

Alas, for some that takes all the fun out of calling everyone else's snakes underfed, doesn't it?

I hit a nerve I guess :P

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I hit a nerve I guess :P

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I don't really think so.

Like I said, you statements are more opinion....not based on any fact at all. Some have a problem with that.

In captivity, snakes of a particular age vary greatly in weight and length. That is fact. They do so in the wild too. Weight per age or growth rate is dependant on various environmental factors and genetics.

Some breeder feed smaller meals with the intent of properly supporting the animals until sale. Some breeders feed more than necessary to support the animal to grow it faster. Some people feed in a random manner.

That is just the way it is.....it is the people that don't feed enough to support the snake that I have problems with....

so if someone is selling snakes that look emaciated........then I could see complaining about snakes being underfed. But with just a weight and age....I wouldn't worry about it.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I hit a nerve I guess :P

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No.

Some animals plateau - you feed them and feed them and they maintain and then one day the weight starts climbing - whether it be at 6 months or 8 months or whatever.

Others don't. They gain and they gain and they gain until they are older and then they tend to level off.

Others grow in different ways. Nothing is black and white and there is no definitive consensus on what a healthy six month old snake should reasonably weigh.

You didn't hit a nerve, you made a statement imparted a black on white view on a situation that has many variables. While making that statement, you took a swipe (inadvertent?) at some people who have a pretty good idea how to raise a healthy snake.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

I don't really think so.

Like I said, you statements are more opinion....not based on any fact at all. Some have a problem with that.

In captivity, snakes of a particular age vary greatly in weight and length. That is fact. They do so in the wild too. Weight per age or growth rate is dependant on various environmental factors and genetics.

Some breeder feed smaller meals with the intent of properly supporting the animals until sale. Some breeders feed more than necessary to support the animal to grow it faster. Some people feed in a random manner.

That is just the way it is.....it is the people that don't feed enough to support the snake that I have problems with....

so if someone is selling snakes that look emaciated........then I could see complaining about snakes being underfed. But with just a weight and age....I wouldn't worry about it.

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Well said.
I asked to get others opinions not to force mine on others.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You didn't hit a nerve, you made a statement imparted a black on white view on a situation that has many variables. While making that statement, you took a swipe (inadvertent?) at some people who have a pretty good idea how to raise a healthy snake.

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I should have worded the questions differently, and left out a few words.
Putting the word large breeder in was/is implying something possibly scandalous, which wasn't the intent.

I admire many of the larger breeders work, like many others in the position of small time hobbyist, so no, it was not my intent to call out the large breeders, even though reading back on it it obviously came out that way.
For that I apologize.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I should have worded the questions differently, and left out a few words.
Putting the word large breeder in was/is implying something possibly scandalous, which wasn't the intent.

I admire many of the larger breeders work, like many others in the position of small time hobbyist, so no, it was not my intent to call out the large breeders, even though reading back on it it obviously came out that way.
For that I apologize.

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When one "PRODUCES" snakes and has 20-40 years of keeping snakes one has alot more knowledge and won't ask this type question..A snake is nothing like a puppy and grows its entire lifetime..If it were not for the "large" breeders there wouldn't be what one has today... Again one must walk in ones shoes before one can judge one..

Scenario, a small time hobbyist with experience has a ball python collection in a spare bedroom..2011 they produce 100 babies and sell a few here and there but the market is saturated and sluggish..The following year they still have 65 babies plus their adults in this spare bedroom..How much growth does this hobbyist want to occurr ? A healthy ball python can go extended periods of time with NO ill effects..Growth is in fact retarded but once food supply becomes abundant growth is then resumed..Snakes are such wonderful and fasinating creatures..:snake: