Anybody awake?

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-b...-92325419.html

:irkd: :banned1: :disbelief

When will the lies of 100k+ number stop surfing. Produce said pictures of burms and retics everywhere. Its irritating to see they will ban it nation wide when its localized.

116 yeas - no nays.

I wish they would list the seven species.
It has started, how far will it go.
This is bad for all responsible reptile owners.

I can't say I'm surprised. People as a collective are just plain ignorant and will believe anything they hear. Has anyone stopped to say "Wow!! 100,000 snakes on the loose and we killed.....39 in two years....." Sheesh. Now I may not be a math wiz, but something not adding up here.... :rolleyes:

They could have saved everyone a lot of economic hardship and heartbreak if they had done this several decades ago.

I honestly have mixed feelings about this. I think it's closing the barn door after the horse is already out, but the truth is that Florida should never have been an importation hub for tropical species in the first place, and it still shouldn't be--whether they're snakes and nile monitors, or tropical fish, or plants, or whatever.

I suppose existing breeders and importers there will have to either move, or stop dealing with those species. That isn't going to be kind to their local economy, or to those businesses. But with this in place, there is really no more need for the proposal to ban these animals Federally, so we may have an easier time stopping this for the rest of the country.

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Originally Posted by Jason Bowden

I wish they would list the seven species.

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I know that Burmese, African Rock Pythons, Anacondas, and Nile Monitors are on the list.

I've just been told by AW that commercial sales between commercial businesses and entities will continue, but unfortunately private pet ownership of the ROCs in FL has been nixed. No new possiseion permits will be issued, no replacement animals can be obtained. HSUS and the AR extremists could not be happier right now over this victory for them.
This is truly a sad day for all of us in the Reptile community.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

with this in place, there is really no more need for the proposal to ban these animals Federally, so we may have an easier time stopping this for the rest of the country.

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I agree it's Florida's problem let Florida deal with, don't bring their troubles to the rest of the country and screw with the happiness and lives of millions more people.

I found the list:
1. Burmese or Indian python (Python molurus).
2. Reticulated python (Python reticulatus).
3. African rock python (Python sebae).
4. Amethystine or scrub python (Morelia amethystinus).
5. Anaconda (Eunectes).
6. Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus).
7. Any other reptile designated as a reptile of concern by
the commission.

i don't see anyone complaining about the numbers of peacock bass in floriduh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I found the list:
1. Burmese or Indian python (Python molurus).
2. Reticulated python (Python reticulatus).
3. African rock python (Python sebae).
4. Amethystine or scrub python (Morelia amethystinus).
5. Anaconda (Eunectes).
6. Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus).
7. Any other reptile designated as a reptile of concern by
the commission.

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Doesn't #7 just make it so that somewhere down the line they'll be able to say "Oh yeah, you know your RTB's and ball pythons? They're against the rules now, so we'll be taking those too. Have a nice day!"

What the christ!? :taz:

let them try to take my snakes. i'll be the first one to protect my snakes and my way of life. by any means necesary.:rage:

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Originally Posted by exiled reptile

let them try to take my snakes. i'll be the first one to protect my snakes and my way of life. by any means necesary.:rage:

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The law is not to take away any pet. Its to stop import and export. You can still breed and sell within YOUR state only which is a huge downfall as some states dont have breeders on certain species.

Anyone have the text of the actual bill?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

I agree it's Florida's problem let Florida deal with, don't bring their troubles to the rest of the country and screw with the happiness and lives of millions more people.

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Unfortunately, this is the precedence that Sen. Nelson and HSUS need for their push in D.C. For those who are not actively supporting USARK and NatPet, you may want to think about just how short of a distance it is between Florida and your own front door. The wild fire has been lit. The question now is, how far are we going to let it spread?...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Anyone have the text of the actual bill?

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Senate
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sectio...8&Session=2010

House
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sectio...9&Session=2010

There are three versions on this page - the linked one is the enrolled bill.
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/SEctio...&BillListIndex

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

The law is not to take away any pet. Its to stop import and export. You can still breed and sell within YOUR state only which is a huge downfall as some states dont have breeders on certain species.

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Wait.. This only happened in FL right? I can still sell retics from IL to other states right?

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Wait.. This only happened in FL right? I can still sell retics from IL to other states right?

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No if it passes you can only sell/breed within your state lines only, its not just FL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

No if it passes you can only sell/breed within your state lines only, its not just FL.

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What? Is it??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1stleo

What? Is it??

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Please explain what your asking.

Is it for florida or the whole country?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1stleo

Is it for florida or the whole country?

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Its a nationwide law trying to be put into law

Oh crap...

This is Florida laws, I don't see how it would impact other states. BUT>....

(2)(a) No person, party, firm, association, or corporation
96 shall keep, possess, import into the state, sell, barter, trade,
97 or breed the following species for personal use or for sale for
98 personal use:

Then it lists the 7 species. So.. no, you CANNOT breed or sell any of those within the state as that is worded. Reading though the whole stupid thing is giving me a headache. But there is a section saying you CAN own the animals you legally owned before the bill.. you simply cannot do anything with them. It does not say you can breed them.. only possess them if you had them before the bill.

Near the end of the bill is this...
Section 7. By December 31, 2010, the Fish and Wildlife
Conservation Commission shall evaluate the placement of
additional species, such as iguanas, on the list of reptiles of
concern.

Which leaves it open for them to add more by Dec of this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

This is Florida laws, I don't see how it would impact other states. BUT>....

(2)(a) No person, party, firm, association, or corporation
96 shall keep, possess, import into the state, sell, barter, trade,
97 or breed the following species for personal use or for sale for
98 personal use:

Then it lists the 7 species. So.. no, you CANNOT breed or sell any of those within the state as that is worded. Reading though the whole stupid thing is giving me a headache.

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Might of reworded it since last time i read it. I remember it saying you can still breed/sell them within state lines just can not be shipped over the borders and such.

Still dont see why northern states like Where im at is getting the hammer when we have Below 0 temps for weeks-months at a time. No snake not native to the North will survive that.

This current Bill applies to Florida, but it provides a precedence to base Federal legislation on. Basically Florida is enacting their own version of the HR and Senate bills that we have been fighting for the last year, 669, 2811, and 373...

Dark days ahead for Daytona...

The sunny side is that at the state level the citizens of florida will have an easier time changing it if they really organize and make there voices heard. It can be done.

thats nanny government for you . you know do as i say not as i do. same can be said for what we can and can't put in our bodies.pure ignorance and arrogance damn beuricrats.i could go on for hours about how much i can't stand the crap that goes on in washington dc but might get in trouble you know the nsa is listening.and if i said what im really talking about i'd be getting a knock on my door tomorow.rage against the machine . hell rush limbaugh is a heroin addict not to mention that pen head bill orieley

Rich, you are confusing the current proposal to add large constrictors to the Lacey Act with this new FLORIDA law which has just passed, and bans large constrictors and Nile Monitors. They are NOT the same thing.

:colbert: oye!! It amazes me that they state there are over 100,000 of them but the last hunt did not go so well. :weirdface Ummmmm maybe because many died during the cold snap. Selective journalism....drives me nutso!!

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

:colbert: oye!! It amazes me that they state there are over 100,000 of them but the last hunt did not go so well. :weirdface Ummmmm maybe because many died during the cold snap. Selective journalism....drives me nutso!!

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Id love to see some energy being put into laws to make the people who are supposed to be giving us the truth actually do just that <yes I know, pipe dream at best>

That said we all know this is real guys, and becoming more real by the minute. Type up those letters and call your representatives. We can QQ and gripe all we want, but we will only have ourselves to blame if we don't actually act. I know some of us are, and some are doing more than their fair share, but I know theres also alot more complaining than action by others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

They could have saved everyone a lot of economic hardship and heartbreak if they had done this several decades ago.

I honestly have mixed feelings about this. I think it's closing the barn door after the horse is already out, but the truth is that Florida should never have been an importation hub for tropical species in the first place, and it still shouldn't be--whether they're snakes and nile monitors, or tropical fish, or plants, or whatever.

I suppose existing breeders and importers there will have to either move, or stop dealing with those species. That isn't going to be kind to their local economy, or to those businesses. But with this in place, there is really no more need for the proposal to ban these animals Federally, so we may have an easier time stopping this for the rest of the country.

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It's a case of enough is enough.

I know this is an unpopular perspective on a reptile forum, but I'll come out and say it:

As a whole, this community does very little to educate prospective buyers. Breeders will sell a venomous snake, a giant constrictor or a large, potentially dangerous monitor to any idiot with the money to buy it.

So while some of you are scratching your heads as to why both the Feds and the States are lining up bills to place limits on reptile ownership, this isn't a case of big government out of control or animal rights organizations running us up.

No, it's a classic case of greed and overindulgence and people in this hobby - not in the media and not in the government - have made us easy pickings for a firestorm of bad publicity.

I see where these bills are coming from and although I don't agree with over-legislation and the loss of personal liberty, I am sick and tired of people running out an buying giant constrictors, giant varanids and hots who cannot provide them long term care and who house them irresponsibly.

I'm amazed that the breeders and importers didn't have the foresight to figure out that selling potentially dangerous animals indiscriminately to the public wouldn't eventually come back to haunt them.

USARK has a partial answer - look to last year's legislation they backed in North Carolina. The problem was that many of you blabbermouths had issues with it because it infringed on your ability to irresponsibly keep dangerous reptiles.

It was rather hilarious watching a bunch of you morons run around blasting the North Carolina legislation while running your USARK sigs - oblivious to the fact that it was a USARK-sponsored bill.

Here's an alternate point of view - make every hot, every large varanid and every giant constrictor available by permit only and contingent upon standardized caging and husbandry requirements (just like USARK advocated in N.C.).

Do everything you can as a group of responsible owners before you start getting all huffy and pissy at the general public and the politicians reacting to decades of excess with mounting environmental and tabloid backlash.

The PERSONAL impact of this bill has to do with my own desire to breed some of the dwarf island forms of these animals. I don't care to own any dangerous species, personally, but I would like the opportunity to work with dwarf Burms, super-dwarf retics, and perhaps even the smaller boas such as Hogg Island boas.

What issues are there really as to owners of large constrictors and varanids? Are there hundreds of cases of giant pythons attacking people? No. Are there populations ANYWHERE in the US except south florida where the overwhelming evidance says they were released by hurricanes damaging facilities, NOT irresponsible owners releasing them which people CONTINUE to tout despite it being pretty much proven false?

So please... what exactly is this impact that caused these bills to be enacted due to irresponsible owners?

I don't agree with selling a hot or giant or large varanid or hey.. ANY pet to any unprepared owner.. but banning them isn't the answer.

If you are going to make a big permit system for any "dangerous" animal to be purchased for a pet, then every dog, horse, cow, cat and pig owner should have to get permits. There's more deaths due to dogs every year than there have been total from giant pythons.

Just wanted to BUMP this!

Dangerous pet:
http://www.katu.com/news/92201704.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/463733.stm

http://www.peoria.com/messages/woman...rent_id=116677

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...es.html?cat=53

Looks to me like more people are killed by house cats than by giant pythons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Dangerous pet:
http://www.katu.com/news/92201704.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/463733.stm

http://www.peoria.com/messages/woman...rent_id=116677

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...es.html?cat=53

Looks to me like more people are killed by house cats than by giant pythons.

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Amen to that!! There was a post some time ago that someone looked up things that had killed more ppl. Horses, dogs, cats, lightning...etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Amen to that!! There was a post some time ago that someone looked up things that had killed more ppl. Horses, dogs, cats, lightning...etc.

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It's irrelevant Elizabeth. If facts were relevant, this debate would have been over a long time ago.

At a certain point, facts go by the wayside. You can send Marshall and Andrew and Elliott before all the senators and politicians in the world and this is what you get - a 116 to 0 vote.

How smart was it to make the import hub of exotic tropical reptile, bird and mammal species in the one part of the one state that would support them if they escaped? How smart is it, in the face of all this legislation coming down the pipe, to waive the same explanations in the faces of people who refuse to listen?

116 yeas to 0 nays. If that doesn't make some of you stop and think, then I don't know what will.

This isn't about banning anything - that's their game - not ours. It's about getting the message across via pre-emptive legislation, that we are cleaning up our own messes.

What good is a gun if there are no bullets in it? North Carolina should have been a template for USARK to follow nationwide.

We are not in a debate. A debate entails two sides laying out logical arguments and facts. Nothing looks stupider than blabbering on and on about how safe reptiles are compared to other pets or just exactly how those darn burms infiltrated the Everglades when the other side has already made up their minds. Where have all the letters and e-mails and testimony gotten us? 116 to freaking 0.

Until we make some sort of effort at self-regulation and self-control, law after law will be forced upon us. Both PIJAC and USARK have indicated that this is the path to follow. The question is, after a 116 to Nil vote, are you still clinging to a bunch of facts that the public, the media and the politicians blithely ignore, or are you going to support self-regulation?

While everyone was half-assed focused on Federal Legislation, the State of Florida snuck one by most of you. Do the rest of you, in other States, have any clue as to what's going on in your back yard?

I have to say Im in SkipLoders corner on this. <Unfortunate as that might be since Im not nearly as eloquent>

If facts where being taken into account by the people making the decisions then this would not be as much of an issue for us. I am fully of the mind that there should have been standards set for the sale of any non native reptile let alone potentially dangerous ones, long, long ago.

Simply because one animal is more dangerous than another does not instill in my mind that the former animal should be ignored, and promoting a pretense we should do so would immediately show poorly upon those who dont understand the hobby. IMO its as bad as the owner who insists their dog isnt capable of biting.
We QQ amongst ourselves constantly about poorly managed pet stores, owners grabbing up snakes for shock value before they have more then the rudimentary understanding on how to care for them. Then seem surprised and defensive when those outside our family take notice and -agree- as soon as something unfortunate happens.
Difference is, they don't share our affection for the hobby so it doesn't break their hearts to find the easier solution.

I find I could add a ton more to this so Im going to stop here in the interest of not flooding people out.

Though I will add a side note as far as the argument of dogs being a greater threat and not receiving the same attention, cause thats not true at all.
Fact is, it is starting to become more and more difficult to own dogs through laws, insurance companies, regulated communities and apartments. Whether or not you're a responsible owner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sariel

Though I will add a side note as far as the argument of dogs being a greater threat and not receiving the same attention, cause thats not true at all.
Fact is, it is starting to become more and more difficult to own dogs through laws, insurance companies, regulated communities and apartments. Whether or not you're a responsible owner.

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I own a stafforshire bull terrier. In some areas of this country it's illegal to own one. I pay extra on my homeowners insurance because of him.

Not directed at you Sariel but the argument often comes up that pet reptiles have killed far less people than pet dogs, pet llamas, pet rocks, etc.

Who cares?

When I was a kid, I remember my dad (who is a Vietnam combat vet) arguing with a veteran of WWII who was a friend of my grandfather.

This older gent had asked my dad about the Battle of Dak To. When my dad was explaining how horrible it was the WWII vet made a comment about how it couldn't have been that bad - that they total American loses in Dak To (entire battle) didn't even equal what his division lost in one hour in the Ardennes.

What sticks in my mind is that someone would dismiss the loss of one life as inconsequential. In some people's minds, the loss of 10 lives becomes negated if you compare it to the loss of 100. 100 becomes irrelevant when compared to 1000 and so on.

If 100,000 people a year die from domestic ferret maulings it should not negate the loss of 10 people killed by rabid clownfish. The argument for responsible ownership of clownfish should not be debated or put on the back burner because of the imminent ferret threat.

So in a ten year period, 150 die from death by dog. Eight die from death by reptile (Giant constrictor and Venomous Exotic). That 150 does not negate the 8. Period.

If only one person had ever died from a captive giant constrictor or venomous reptile, it should have been cause enough for people to call for restrictions on ownership. With the exception of USARK's legislation in North Carolina, the Reptile Nation has done nothing, proposed nothing to self-regulate ownership of dangerous animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I own a stafforshire bull terrier. In some areas of this country it's illegal to own one. I pay extra on my homeowners insurance because of him.

Not directed at you Sariel but the argument often comes up that pet reptiles have killed far less people than pet dogs, pet llamas, pet rocks, etc.

Who cares?

.

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I completely agree, I started to go into a small rant about that in my own post, but decided it was starting to get alittle off topic and soap boxy.

Ive never felt that one wrong becomes more right because something else is on a grander scale. Monetary loss, life loss, even just physical distress hurts someone. When that's preventable, especially on a smaller and more easily controlled scale, its unacceptable.

Im not on board for total banning by any means, but regulation is a very acceptable answer if it means that people who are responsible have the chance at ownership and it prevents more of the people who are not from doing so. Yes it will likely be expensive, and tedious, but since pet stores, importers, flippers and many breeders could care less who they sell too, then its an good alternative to overall banning.

people need to know this is all a red herring. from an environmental perspective even if you ban all non-native snakes the established population of invasive snakes are not going to stop and say,. "hey wait, we are now illegal, lets move to gorgia." They are building levies after the town was destroyed and claiming that they will undo what is already there. they might as well re-write history and say hurricane andrew never happened and all of the snakes will now disappear.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

people need to know this is all a red herring. from an environmental perspective even if you ban all non-native snakes the established population of invasive snakes are not going to stop and say,. "hey wait, we are now illegal, lets move to gorgia." They are building levies after the town was destroyed and claiming that they will undo what is already there. they might as well re-write history and say hurricane andrew never happened and all of the snakes will now disappear.

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Keep educating people. The reptile community has been "educating" people for the last year or so.

All that education got you 116 yeas to 0 nays in the House and 35 to 0 in the Senate and draconian legislation in Connecticut to boot. Your attempts at exposing the red herring aren't working.

Got any other bright ideas? Or is the plan to keep trying to educate people who aren't listening to a word you're saying?

i have educated quite a few as well as resolved unfounded fears in a number of people. unfortunately i am just one in a state where this isn't as big of a hot topic. closed minded people dont care about the online postings of some bum in wisconsin addressing flawed logic in their state. I'm stuck to the home front and talk to my congressional reps when the federal bans come into play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

i have educated quite a few as well as resolved unfounded fears in a number of people. unfortunately i am just one in a state where this isn't as big of a hot topic. closed minded people dont care about the online postings of some bum in wisconsin addressing flawed logic in their state. I'm stuck to the home front and talk to my congressional reps when the federal bans come into play.

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Are you sure it's not being discussed in your state? The people of Connecticut were given quite a nasty surprise as have people in other states.

Rarely does the topic get the fanfare it's getting in Florida. Most times, it quietly slips under the table because most people are blissfully ignorant of the bills that their legislatures are passing.

What makes you think self-regulation is somehow going to stop them from banning more pets??
Florida HAS regulation restricting the reptiles that they just banned. Obviously pre-existing regulations from OFFICIAL sources did not stop them, and thinking that if we put rules on ourselves, they won't ban our pets is ridiculous.
Most reptile owners are responsible owners and responsible sellers. We cannot force a irresponsible owner from running down the street with a burm in his hands scaring people. We do our best to educate because that's what we CAN do.

What exactly are you saying the reptile hobby should do? If USARK managed to get the same stuff passed in Florida that they got passed in the carolina state, do you REALLY think that would have stopped this ban? When the state had it's OWN version(more restrictive than the USARK legislation in fact!) already in place?

Reptiles, and then later the rest of our pets, are on the way out. In ten years we'll be lucky if we can own a housecat, much less a "exotic" pet like a hamster or goldfish. I'll be there fighting all the legislation and attempting to educate folks and whatever else I can do to help, but down deep, I'm beginning to think it's a losing battle. I'm just going to make darned certain that I don't go down without trying my best to fight it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that because a person dies, things have to be banned or regulated. People always find new and interesting ways to kill themselves, and if you went that route, EVERYTHING would be banned or regulated.

If a pet constrictor kills someone, that is terrible, but it was that person's choice to own one, and that person's choice to handle it improperly--the rest of the populace does NOT need to have their freedoms taken away simply because one individual was too stupid to live. (As for the kid in Florida, I personally believe the python was framed, and all the evidence really does point to that).

I think it's time for the reptile industry to do something it hasn't really done much of in the past.

Propaganda.

This is the weapon that is being used against us, and this truly is a situation where you have to fight fire with fire. The public's opinion is being swayed. If we want to sway it back, we had better open up our mouths and start getting loud about it.

I don't mean just basic education, but actual PROMOTION. Whether it feels like a good idea or not, it just might be the only way we will stand a chance in this war.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that because a person dies, things have to be banned or regulated. People always find new and interesting ways to kill themselves, and if you went that route, EVERYTHING would be banned or regulated..

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You have a gift for taking someone's point of view and blowing it out of proportion.

Dangerous things should be regulated, not by the government but by the people who are fans of those things. Thats why I keep referring to self-regulation.

Giant constrictors and venomous snakes have no business being sold to anyone who can afford them. The first line of regulation is an ethical breeder or dealer. You can kiss that off in the reptile industry - we're famous for our scam and quick buck artists.

Yep, that first line is a joke in the reptile hobby.....a bad joke. I've kept and keep snakes that would easily fall under a future permit system. In fact I have one animal in my collection that I have to have a permit for in California.

I have no problem with this and would question the motives behind anyone who would balk at agreeing to register and purchase permits for dangerous animals - be it a pitbull or a puff adder.

Even the Reptile Nation - USARK, and PIJAC realize this. Problem is that many of you would rather sit back and talk tough while USARK and PIJAC have to deal with our bad rap and our bad publicity - earned or otherwise.

I am seeing more and more young people buying animals they cannot afford to maintain and have no clue as to what they are in for when that animal reaches adulthood. USARK and PIJAC have been stepping up to try to pass internal standards for care (caging and otherwise) for these animals and all I see them getting is a rash and a crap for their efforts.

The only time people root on USARK is when they are fighting legislation, not for their proactive efforts like North Carolina. Ditto for PIJAC.

I find it the height of hypocrisy that there are members on this forum who will one day shake their fists in rage at Craig's List "idiots" and then on the next day will actively support some newbie deciding to go buy a croc monitor on a whim.

So good luck with your propaganda campaign Donna (seriously). If you can get people to get off their lazy asses and stop posting their "fury" here instead of actually doing something to make a difference, I will gladly doff my hat to you.

Between the Florida House and Senate, the final tally was 151 to 0. Where in the hell was the vaunted Reptile Nation (not USARK)? Where were you people who are so willing to proclaim "they'll have to pry my animals out of my cold dead hands" while this bill was being debated back and forth?

Huh?