How to feed "Live" prey

I have a 2 year old female Normal BP that has been refusing frozen thawed for the past 5 months now - it has been suggested to me by the breeder that I now offer live in order to get her back on feed. **note** my other three snakes are all feeding fine - all kept in the exact same cage setup.

I have never fed live before and don't know how to do it. Do I dangle it from the scruff of its neck or the tail with tongs? Do I just drop it in the cage and hope for the best?? What do I do if she won't eat the live rat either - what do I do with it - kill it and feed to one of my other snakes??

This is a new stage in snake keeping for me and I need some help and advice.

Thank you.

Did you already try the tuna trick, braining, and warming em up? Or the paper bag trick?

No, I am not familiar with the technics you've mentioned. I do warm the f/t rodents up before offering though.

Can you share more specific information about the technics you metioned.

Thanks.

Tuna, chicken broth, or any kind of scenting using "smelly" foods will not work. It just won't. Why would a ball python be more enticed by a rat that smells like a fish? Or a rat that smells like a bird? It makes no sense.

Braining is basically just that...exposing the brain. I don't think this is very helpful either. It just makes a mess.

Not heating the f/t up enough is a common mistake. If it isn't warm enough, they won't see it as prey and they won't eat it. You can take a hair dryer and warm the outside of the feeder right before offering it. This also makes it smell very strongly which might provoke a better feeding response.

How many times have you tried with f/t? How old is the snake and when was the last time it ate? What size feeders are you using?

If you want to go the live route it is fairly simple. Remember, you need to supervise a live feeding. You can just drop the mouse or rat in and hopefully your snake will strike. Have some tongs ready in case you need to keep the mouse from biting your snake. If the snake does not eat the mouse in 15 minutes or so, just remove it and try again next week. If you don't want an extra pet, feed it to one of your snakes that will eat :)

I feed live. I just make sure the feeders are not hungry or thirsty before I try to feed them off. I haven't had any problems. I usually give them a piece of bread and water while I their scent wakes up the snakes.

I usually I leave them up to 30 minutes and if they still haven't eaten the feeder, I remove it. When the snake is not being a very aggressive feeder, I try to feed them during the night time, when it's really dark. I leave the feeder up to 1hr with the snake. This is how my male Axanthic finally ate after being off feed since before November, that's 5+ months.

Just make sure you are close by in case anything bad does happen, at least close enough that you could hear it. When I hear a strike, I go check on the snakes to make sure they are not getting bit, which hasn't happen yet, after that it's their show and I leave them alone.

If the snake is off-feed currently, make sure it doesn't see you, it will increase your chances of it feeding. My rack is next to my computer desk, but the rack front end is facing away from the computer view where I sit most of the time. It works out well, and I can hear when anything happens during feeds.

The above advice is great, but since you have your snakes together, you HAVE to feed out of the cage, especially live. I don't want to get into the more than one per cage thing, I've done it myself, but it can stress one out enough to stop eating, whichever is getting "bullied". I've done it both ways, and while one tank was nice, building a rack is the greatest thing ever. In any case, don't feed inside the cage with more than one. They could fight, both grab the mouse, grab the mouse when another's already eaten it.... not a pretty picture.

Sorry but I don't see where the OP said they are being house together. He just mentioned that they share the same setup/husbandry, that doesn't mean they are in the same enclosure.

I've had this snake for almost two years - this is the first time that she has went off feed for this long (5 months now). She is housed in her own enclosure - the same enclosure she has been in all along - nothing has changed for her.

I currently let the prey thaw out all day and then put it in a ziplock baggy and soak it in really hot water for about 15 min and then immediately offer it while it is still warm - I have used this same method with her and with all my snakes and always had good results.

Bella is currently about 1,640 grams - hasn't really lost any weight since she has been fasting - maybe 15 grams total lost.

I really hate to switch to live but if that is the only option then I will have to do it.

Kaorte, any further help or suggestions based on the info given above.

Thanks.

Thanks Danounet for your helpful information about feeding live - I will certainly keep that in mind if I have to switch to live.

I just hope I can find live prey somewhere locally - because I will need to by one rat each week on feeding day - I don't keep rats.

Honestly, if she isn't loosing weight then there isn't much to worry about. She will eat when she is ready. She seems well established and should start eating soon. You could always try filling the tank with crumpled paper to see if its a security issue. A live rat might spark a feeding response but I doubt you would have to continue her on live forever.

Hi,

Have you been pairing her up with any males? Have you tried palpating to see if you can feel any follicles in her?

With the F/T have you tried any alternate prey - mice or ASF's for example?


dr del

Hey Kaorte,

I just spoke to the breeder (a friend of mine) and he has offered to take her home with him and get her eating again - would you go that route??

dr del, I have tried f/t mice, f/t rats to no avail.

I have not paired her up with any males - I do not breed. In regards to follicles - I have no clue even what to look for - sorry.

I thought about trying ASF's but was told that I would probably still need to go live with that also - I was trying to avoid going live.

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Originally Posted by L.West

Hey Kaorte,

I just spoke to the breeder (a friend of mine) and he has offered to take her home with him and get her eating again - would you go that route??

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If she were a baby snake and was loosing weight I would send her back to the breeder. Fact of the matter is, she is a healthy weight for an adult female and has not been loosing a lot of weight. Some ball pythons will fast seasonally for 3-6 months. It is not uncommon nor should it have any adverse effects on your animal. I would not worry about sending her back. Ball pythons are notorious for going on long fasts for no apparent reasons.

She isn't broken and there really isn't a reason to fix her.

You can try giving her a live meal. It could help kick start her metabolism.

Thanks Kaorte,

I think next week (Wednesday) at her next scheduled feeding I will offer a live rat but how do I present it - should I dangle it from tongs or just put it in her enclosure?

I would really hate to part with my girl for any length of time it would take the breeder to get her eating again - so I will do as you have said and offer her live and just give it more time if needed.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by L.West

Thanks Kaorte,

I think next week (Wednesday) at her next scheduled feeding I will offer a live rat but how do I present it - should I dangle it from tongs or just put it in her enclosure?

I would really hate to part with my girl for any length of time it would take the breeder to get her eating again - so I will do as you have said and offer her live and just give it more time if needed.

Thanks.

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You can hold it from tongs by the scruff of its neck, or you can just toss it in the enclosure. Its your call. As long as your supervise, it shouldn't be an issue.

perhaps you could start offering her food every 2 weeks instead of every week? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Tuna, chicken broth, or any kind of scenting using "smelly" foods will not work. It just won't. Why would a ball python be more enticed by a rat that smells like a fish? Or a rat that smells like a bird? It makes no sense.

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I dont know about the fish, but I do know that you can feed chicks to BPs so the chicken broth kind of makes sense.

I wouldn't hold a live feeder, but that's just me. It makes them very aggressive/defensive and upset. Just drop it in the snake enclosure and let your snake take care of it. Like I said, just make sure the feeder isn't hungry or thirsty and everything will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I wouldn't hold a live feeder, but that's just me. It makes them very aggressive/defensive and upset. Just drop it in the snake enclosure and let your snake take care of it. Like I said, just make sure the feeder isn't hungry or thirsty and everything will be fine.

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You ever hold a rat/mouse/ASF by the scruff of its neck? They don't move, theyre instantly immobilized with a stupid look on their face. Its quite funny actually.

Holding a live rat by the tail though...man that was a lesson to learn. :O

Yes I have, I bred ASFs for a while. Some were chill while holding them by the scruff, some were definitely not. In any way, I dont see the point of holding the feeder if it's alive.

I feed live weaned or small rats usualy. No problem grabbing them from the tail most of the time. Anyways I just drop them in the snake tubs. Hopefully I will never have to grab a big rat by the tail ever. :please:

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out with all your advice.

I will buy a rat next week and drop it in her cage - and see what happens.

One other question though, should I remove the logs and other greenery from the cage to clear out a space in there. Have you ever seen a rat run into an empty hide before - then what happens.

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Originally Posted by L.West

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out with all your advice.

I will buy a rat next week and drop it in her cage - and see what happens.

One other question though, should I remove the logs and other greenery from the cage to clear out a space in there. Have you ever seen a rat run into an empty hide before - then what happens.

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I remove cage furniture if I know I have a particularly lousy hunter that needs a direct view of the food or else they'll stay sleeping. I attribute that to the fact that my rodents are in the same room, so they might be used to the smell of food and need to be coaxed to hunt.

If you dont remove cage furniture, your BP will just hunt, and find it eventually. Rodents move around too. Oh and, if it runs under and empty hide, just pick the hide up, and remove its hiding areas until it has nothing left to do but meet its maker.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

Yes I have, I bred ASFs for a while. Some were chill while holding them by the scruff, some were definitely not. In any way, I dont see the point of holding the feeder if it's alive.

I feed live weaned or small rats usualy. No problem grabbing them from the tail most of the time. Anyways I just drop them in the snake tubs. Hopefully I will never have to grab a big rat by the tail ever. :please:

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I usually do it for positioning purposes only. Ill hold an ASF by the tail and try to get the BPs attention, and when I have it Ill set the ASF down to run around within striking range. Ive got some lazy BPs though lol.

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Originally Posted by L.West

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out with all your advice.

I will buy a rat next week and drop it in her cage - and see what happens.

One other question though, should I remove the logs and other greenery from the cage to clear out a space in there. Have you ever seen a rat run into an empty hide before - then what happens.

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I've seen a rat run into a hide with a hungry snake inside, end of story LOL.

When they run into empty hides, they usually come out and keep exploring.

Trust me if you snake wants to eat it. She will stalk it down.

This will be very interesting since I have never fed live before and I tend to be a big softey for all animals - but I will do what I have to do for my BP's well being.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I've seen a rat run into a hide with a hungry snake inside, end of story LOL.

When they run into empty hides, they usually come out and keep exploring.

Trust me if you snake wants to eat it. She will stalk it down.

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+1 on that. When they want it, they get it. With ferocity. Ive had one of my bigger snakes strike so hard and fast, and then constrict so hard that the ASF bled from mouth and butt....it was brutal.

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Originally Posted by L.West

This will be very interesting since I have never fed live before and I tend to be a big softey for all animals - but I will do what I have to do for my BP's well being.

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Circle of life. I used to feel bad, but it has to go down. Especially when I fed my first snake ( a corn ) a pinky. That was tough. Now it's just whatever. Thanks for being food. *chomp*

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Originally Posted by L.West

This will be very interesting since I have never fed live before and I tend to be a big softey for all animals - but I will do what I have to do for my BP's well being.

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It will make you feel weird the first time. But it gets better over time. The very first time I fed live (of course just MY luck!) the little rat made this very HIGH pitch LOUD noise. It broke my heart really... I havent had any feeders make that loud, ugly noise ever again.

On a side note, it's very amazing watching a snake do what a snake does. I never get tired of seeing it :gj:

OMG - I would just die if the rat starts screaming!!! I'm glad I have a whole week to prepare myself for this adventure.

Do you think if she takes the live prey that I can immediately (the next week) offer her f/t again.

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Originally Posted by L.West

OMG - I would just die if the rat starts screaming!!! I'm glad I have a whole week to prepare myself for this adventure.

Do you think if she takes the live prey that I can immediately (the next week) offer her f/t again.

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You may be able to get her to take f/t the following week - because the live meal may kick her metabolism back in gear.

Even after feeding off over 10K live feeders, I still, to this day cannot stand there and watch the prey if their eyes are looking at me. I check to make sure all is well with the snake and they didn't hit at a wrong angle, but then I just leave close the tub and let them finish the job.

It's never easy - but my snakes have to eat.

What do you do if the snake doesn't connect right with the rat and things go wrong - how do you intervene??

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Originally Posted by L.West

What do you do if the snake doesn't connect right with the rat and things go wrong - how do you intervene??

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In case of a missed strike the snake just misses and the prey gets scared. Ive had rats + ASFs run QUICK in the opposite direction and have leapt out onto the floor.
If they dont bolt, most of my snakes just take a second quick strike, and some even chase after prey with their second strike.
Just my experience though, hope it helps.

My fear is that the rat would turn on the snake and start biting it - I would probably panic at that point but I'm sure the "mom" in me would kick in and I would do what was needed to rescue my baby - LOL.

Hopefully, feeding live won't be that big a deal and I will have gotten myself all worried over nothing - I tend to do that.

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Originally Posted by L.West

I've had this snake for almost two years - this is the first time that she has went off feed for this long (5 months now). She is housed in her own enclosure - the same enclosure she has been in all along - nothing has changed for her.

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My bad. :rolleyes: Good luck getting her to eat! It's definitely stressful when they don't :(

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Originally Posted by L.West

My fear is that the rat would turn on the snake and start biting it - I would probably panic at that point but I'm sure the "mom" in me would kick in and I would do what was needed to rescue my baby - LOL.

Hopefully, feeding live won't be that big a deal and I will have gotten myself all worried over nothing - I tend to do that.

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Honestly, you just might be, but its good to know what to expect right?

Snakes are natural beings, living on instinct. They know what they're doing...from the very first go around.

Im talking mostly to my wife in the vid, just realized I have a full commentary cause of that. LOL and we're whispering cause its my first time starting a hatchling lol, ever.
YouTube - Mojave hatchling first meal, first strike

Well everyone - just an update on the feeding dilema. After trying to get her to eat for the past five months - I offered her a live rat on Sunday. All she did was watch it run around her enclosure - she never struck at it - I just don't understand what it is going to take to get her back on feeding.

im learning alot from this thread since the snake im gonna be buying will most likely be established on live prey. im worried about a rat biting too but i just gotta put faith in the fact that the snake will know what to do & hopefully wont get scared of its food if it does get bitten.

As another member suggested to me - I just made sure the rat was well fed before I put it in with my snake. The rat climbed right on top of her and she wouldn't even strike.

I plan to attempt the frozen/thawed again at this weeks scheduled feeding and hope for the best. My other three snakes (which are all kept in identical setups are all eating fine).

Try African Soft furd Rats! I've never heard of a ball python refusing African Soft furd rats. They can be pricey.

Would I need to feed live or can you get ASF's frozen thawed?? I don't have a place locally where I could just go buy what I need each week so I would need to buy bulk from a vender of frozen thawed if possible.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Tuna, chicken broth, or any kind of scenting using "smelly" foods will not work. It just won't. Why would a ball python be more enticed by a rat that smells like a fish? Or a rat that smells like a bird? It makes no sense.

Braining is basically just that...exposing the brain. I don't think this is very helpful either. It just makes a mess.

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Ok I do have to disagree on the tuna not working part, I have the utmost respect for the advice Kaorte gives from what I've seen on the forum, but Ive seen tuna scenting work first hand on one of my finicky eaters. I also know that BHB uses this method for some of theirs and has success with it.

I started with a fire that wouldnt eat at all, dropped a live mouse in with some canned tuna for alittle while, she struck immediately, once it was introduced into her tub. I also got her to switch to F/T this way by scenting a few live for consecutive feedings, then scenting a f/t and offering it on feeding day. No hesitation were before she had no interest in f/t.

Hey Sariel, At this point I will try anything - do I just coat the f/t rat in the juice from the canned tuna?? Wouldn't that make the rat soggy??? Or do I just rubbed some of the tuna meat on the rat??

Thanks.

Well I think if nothing has worked this far, you might just need to wait it out. Like I said before, my oldest male didn't eat for 5 months.

Maybe she does have follicles and females wont eat when they have them. You might have to wait until she re-absorbs them if that is the case.

In any case, dont drive your self crazy. If nothing did change. She will start eating when she is ready again.

Also, dont keep offering food so often. You WILL make things worse. Keep trying once a week as usual.

Thanks Danounet - I will take your advise and sit back, let her decide when she wants to eat again.

She looks great - very good size and has only lost 44 grams in 5 months so I think she is okay.

Last night she passed urates but they were oddly colored - two were white, one was lt. brown and one was darker brown - don't know if this means anything or not.

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Originally Posted by L.West

Thanks Danounet - I will take your advise and sit back, let her decide when she wants to eat again.

She looks great - very good size and has only lost 44 grams in 5 months so I think she is okay.

Last night she passed urates but they were oddly colored - two were white, one was lt. brown and one was darker brown - don't know if this means anything or not.

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Don't worry, she will eat when she is ready. :)

44 grams in 5 months is basically nothing.

I have seen darker brown urates, they range in color.

Thanks Kaorte, It seems like I have been waiting forever for her to start back up feeding (5 months is an eternity). She happens to be my first and most favorite snake - I tend to worry too much.

Thanks again for all the advice and reassurances.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

+1 on that. When they want it, they get it. With ferocity. Ive had one of my bigger snakes strike so hard and fast, and then constrict so hard that the ASF bled from mouth and butt....it was brutal.

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I had one that ruptured the rats scrotum. Nasty! :puke:Needless to say I only fed females for about a six month afterwards.

I agree with the above posts, as long as she isnt losing much weight, its just not that uncommon for BPs to stress us out with going off feed.

If you want to try the tuna method after giving her alittle time to deal with follicles if their are any, or just to chill and destress. All I did with mine was mostly drain the can of tuna, put about half of it in a Tupperware container and let the mouse sit in it for a few mins <closed lid of course> The F/T I just tossed in a plastic baggy with drained tuna, on the way into their room for feeding time. Removing both from the baggy/Tupperware before placing into her container of course.

You might even want to just go ahead and give her two weeks before offering again.

i agree, she will eat when ready and if it was me after 4 refusals i would offer bi-weekly.

Interesting thread and some very good advice in here on feeding live :D
@ OP I hope she eats soon, I can only imagine being very worried about her if she was mine.

Considering her age and the time of year, it may simply be that she'd rather find a mate than focus on eating. I have had females in the past that will go off feed even though they hadn't been exposed to a male. I suppose simply being in the same room with the males was enough to pick up on the pheromones. If this is the case, the feeding refusal isn't anything to worry about unless she starts visibly losing body weight. She'll resume feeding when she's ready. It is aggravating waiting to see if today will be the day they decide to eat something but it's all just part of having a pet snake reaching adulthood.

If your female has been taking f/t or f/k feeders all this time and you want to try to encourage her appetite with a live feeder, I would suggest using a prey animal that is significantly smaller than what she was previously eating. When I've used a live feeder to encourage a finicky snake to eat I usually didn't get a good response when I used a feeder of the same size that they were accustomed to taking in a f/k or f/t form. Several of my snakes would pull back or ball up when the rat approached them so I use a smaller size feeder that wouldn't intimidate them. My adult balls ordinarily take small to medium sized rats on a weekly basis but sometimes they're reluctant to take their first meals after fasting through winter and early spring. When that happens, I have offered a live medium or large mouse and more often than not they take an immediate interest and snatch it up quickly. Afterwards they usually go back to taking f/k rats as if nothing had ever changed.