What the.......

Hey everyone, I don't know what the heck happened but the second mama, Sierra gave birth today and out of 13 the are only 3 ALIVE! the first mama, Remy stole 2 of them which i'm problably glad she did and Sierra has only 1 under her care right now. So i'm wondering, did Sierra kill the other 10 or could they have just died from too many, i mean i was really excited because she was HUGE. What do you guys and gals think?

Well if you know there were 13 of them then obviously you got to see them. Were they alive when you saw them or were they already all dead? I'm no expert but I would bet that if the momma killed them it would have been as she was eating them and you would have never known they were there. I would bet they were still born.

What was the time line on this, how long a period of time?

They dead ones are still in there with her. I did see her give birth but i wasn't sure if they were alive but i did not see any movement from the babies. I know that the mama ate one of them because the head was missing and the other mama finished it. i saw her with the first one at around 12ish am, then my wife called me a while ago telling me that 10 are dead. so the first mama has 4 of her own and 2 from the new mama, the new mama has 1 alive and the others are dead, some scattered around and some under her.

Generally it's a good idea to keep prego moms by themselves. Females will tend to fight over the babies , usually by having a tug-o-war with them. This could be the cause of their death. Although sometimes some females just aren't good moms and will eat the babies for no apparent reason.

I produce about 2000 rats a month and sometimes it happens. I would say I have about 1 in a 100 kill their babies.

Don't sweat it and just keep at it. :gj:

i thought it was OK to keep 2 mamas together in one tub? i feel like i'm just having bad luck.

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Originally Posted by jben

i thought it was OK to keep 2 mamas together in one tub? i feel like i'm just having bad luck.

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Sometimes they are fine and sometimes not. Just depends on the 2 girls. If you have room to keep them separate I would suggest it. I think you will find you'll have better luck. :D

Trevor thank you so much for your quick replys and much needed help. I could be wrong but i did not see them fight over the babies but obviously they did because the other mama ended up with 2 babies from the other. i do have the space to separate them but how about the male, is he ok to stay with the mamas? i have a 1.3 colony with a 3 tub rack so i will put one female in each tub.

Hey jben. I wouldn't split them up just yet. A lot of problems can come from this. How long has the colony been established? Have you ever noticed any fighting before? Is this her first litter?
When the have babies sometimes it's best just to leave them be for a few days after thy have them. You disturbing them could cause stress. I know that my mice when they have litters they have a "community pile". They just all have there babies in the same spot and all lay down on em at the same time. I've also heard of rats doing this aswell.

Hey Jeremy, I've had them for about a month and a half. They have never fought before that I've seen and this is their first litter. The most i've disturbed them was by just looking at them but that's about it. each mama has her own corner in the tub. i'll wait to move them then because i don't want to lose any more feeders. thanks for your help.

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Originally Posted by jben

Hey Jeremy, I've had them for about a month and a half. They have never fought before that I've seen and this is their first litter. The most i've disturbed them was by just looking at them but that's about it. each mama has her own corner in the tub. i'll wait to move them then because i don't want to lose any more feeders. thanks for your help.

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Jben, you've got an established colony don't wreck it lol. Lots and lots of people have problems with there first litters. Search it on the forums.
If I were u I'd count my losses with this first litter and let em have another. Keep your 1.3 in the tub and let them try again.
If you split em chances are you'll have to reestablish the colony and that could take a while.
Sounds like your doing everything right. And sometimes the babies won't move, maybe there not dead :). I'd just leave em be for a day or two only bug em for food and water.
Good luck!!! Jeremy.

Thanks alot Jeremy.

hey hun! I breed my own rats and mice as well and I find first time mommies do really well with an experienced mom to help them out..... I have multiple tubs set up like this:

Tub 1 and 2 ~ breeder males one in each
tub 3 and 4 ~ Females 4 each based off of how well they get along
tub 5 ~ Future breeders ( super sweet girls that share the same qualities of their moms
Tub 6 ~ Grow out babies that are 4.5 - 5 weeks old are put here for a few weeks then future breeders removed and feeders divided by sex so no unwanted litters

I keep the males in their own tubs and introduce a female to their tub for about a week each since I can't always be there to see if they have done the deed or not....this gives me a chance to see if there are any signs of pregnancy before trying again. Also even females who haven't had a litter have taken on helping the new mommies and experienced mommies with feeding and caring for the young....so far I haven't had any bad luck aside from a female I picked up having been already expecting and being too old leading to her not making it through birth :( In the end nothing is wasted though I always have something willing to eat.


my mice well there are two tubs
tub 1 ~ females with or with out babies and one male to play as dad...I do not introduce a new male when any females have babies with another male cause he will kill them
Tub 2 ~ feeders basically excess males since my litter contain mostly males

Hope this helps a little

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Originally Posted by JEWSKIN

hey hun! I breed my own rats and mice as well and I find first time mommies do really well with an experienced mom to help them out..... I have multiple tubs set up like this:

Tub 1 and 2 ~ breeder males one in each
tub 3 and 4 ~ Females 4 each based off of how well they get along
tub 5 ~ Future breeders ( super sweet girls that share the same qualities of their moms
Tub 6 ~ Grow out babies that are 4.5 - 5 weeks old are put here for a few weeks then future breeders removed and feeders divided by sex so no unwanted litters

I keep the males in their own tubs and introduce a female to their tub for about a week each since I can't always be there to see if they have done the deed or not....this gives me a chance to see if there are any signs of pregnancy before trying again. Also even females who haven't had a litter have taken on helping the new mommies and experienced mommies with feeding and caring for the young....so far I haven't had any bad luck aside from a female I picked up having been already expecting and being too old leading to her not making it through birth :( In the end nothing is wasted though I always have something willing to eat.


my mice well there are two tubs
tub 1 ~ females with or with out babies and one male to play as dad...I do not introduce a new male when any females have babies with another male cause he will kill them
Tub 2 ~ feeders basically excess males since my litter contain mostly males

Hope this helps a little

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That did not help a little....it helped ALOT. Thank you. I guess i can copy something similar to what you're doing except that i have 3 tubs but if i keep the male in one and two females in each of the other tubs i can put each female with the male for a week and then leave the females alone and hope for the best.

I think you guys misunderstood what I was saying. You can keep your 1.3 group in the same bin , just remove the prego females before they give birth and set them up on their own.

I keep my groups at 1.5 , when there is a prego female she gets removed and a new girl gets rotated in. The girls in the top row have been in with the males the longs and most of the pregos should come from the top row.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...G/IMG_1745.jpg

It's fine to keep mixing different females in with other females and a male to breed.

Once they are pregnant the female gets removed and set up on her own here...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...G/IMG_1744.jpg

The female stays here by herself until the babies are ready to come out. Once ready the babies go here......

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...G/IMG_1746.jpg

The mom then goes back into the breeding rack at the bottem and gets rotated through multiple males until they are ready to go again. I don't keep the same 1.5 together all the time. The females keep rotating up the racks as other females get removed.

Hope this helps.

my females are always kept together with or without babies

Trevor, that's an awsome setup you got there. thank you all for your advice, i was typing how i'm going to seperate the females when my wife yells that they are stealing each others babies back and forth and started fighting. i went ahead and separated them but i left all the babies to the good mama and she's taking care of them now. gotta go to sleep.

Communal nursing is always a little more problematic during the first 10 days, the babies are very fragile, the females often fight over them which can lead to severe injuries and death is it the case here? I would doubt it usually you will lose a few babies but not the majority, why is why I chose to keep female alone with their litter for at least the first 7 to 10 days, than I put the female together to raise their litters by than the babies are stronger already.

In your case there are various possibilities.

Since they were alive when they were born you can dismiss that possibility.

Babies might have die later on it is very possible, the mother could have failed to nurse them (new or bad mom) or no be able to nurse them (not producing enough milk).

The female might have killed the babies, that happens too it can be due to stress, presence of another female, lack of food, lack of water etc

You can give her another chance if this time I would recommend to keep her by herself to see how it goes with a litter and if something like that happens again I would retire her.

If you are breeding, feed, water and clean their bins but let them alone. Nature will take its place they will they settle out over time.

It sounds to me you have pets that you plan to allow to breed. This will be stressful and expensive. If that is your plan, then you basically need to house them all separately. I suggest cute little wooden name plaques, dresses, tuxes and custom cages that look similar to doll houses. Once every 2 months you can have "date night" where Ken and Barbie rat can hop in their rat Ferrari and go dancing.


I will tell you this secret. Rats are some of the best survivors known in the animal kingdom. Their actions are how nature teaches them to act. If one adult becomes a real problem, deal with the adult. The loss of one litter is not a problem in the wild. Most species lose most of their offspring in the wild or their populations tend to explode.

They are stealing each other's babies and fighting because mostly likely....YOU ARE BOTHERING NEW MOTHERS!!!!! IF you know what they are doing...YOU ARE BOTHERING THEM!!!!!


LET THEM ALONE.....

Thanks Deb and Gary. I now it was not a lack of food or water so stress and maybe another female are the factors here, my inexpirience talking. Now as for considering them "pets" i'm not sure if i can really say that since the only time that i have any contact with them is when i clean the tubs, other than that i do look into their tubs more often than i problably should especially when they were pregnant. but the only reason i have rats is for food. so now my question is how often do you check yours when they are prego? how do you can keep track of how old are the babies so you can start feeding them off? other than feeding, watering and cleaning their tubs, do you just let them be? or maybe i should get them their own barbie doll house...LOL

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Originally Posted by TnT Reptiles

Sometimes they are fine and sometimes not. Just depends on the 2 girls. If you have room to keep them separate I would suggest it. I think you will find you'll have better luck. :D

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Yep yep! I keep my moms in separate tubs, I'd rather not wait and find out if they get along.

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Originally Posted by jben

Thanks Deb and Gary. I now it was not a lack of food or water so stress and maybe another female are the factors here, my inexpirience talking. Now as for considering them "pets" i'm not sure if i can really say that since the only time that i have any contact with them is when i clean the tubs, other than that i do look into their tubs more often than i problably should especially when they were pregnant. but the only reason i have rats is for food. so now my question is how often do you check yours when they are prego? how do you can keep track of how old are the babies so you can start feeding them off? other than feeding, watering and cleaning their tubs, do you just let them be? or maybe i should get them their own barbie doll house...LOL

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I have a room of racks. I do a once a day sweep in which I fill buckets and food. Other than that, the only time I open the actual tub is my weekly harvest or weekly cleaning time. (or if I smell something is wrong)

I have huge requests for pinks and weans so I am considering moving my insects elsewhere and using the entire building for rodents only. UNLESS you need day old stuff...then watching your rats close will cause more harm than good.

If I needed really small pinks I would change diet rather than stressing them by watching them more often.

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Originally Posted by jben

so now my question is how often do you check yours when they are prego? how do you can keep track of how old are the babies so you can start feeding them off? other than feeding, watering and cleaning their tubs, do you just let them be? or maybe i should get them their own barbie doll house...LOL

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I check on my rats daily (simply checking the water level and making sure there is no leak or flooding) just take 5 minutes a day.

Once a week I clean their enclosures, I have a very specific rotating schedule so I rotate the animals put new females in rotation and check the ones that were with males, if pregnant depending on how advanced they are they either go in a communal tub (with no male) or in an individual tub if they are ready to pop.

Rats are arranged by sized which let me know which ones are the older, I feed about everything from pup to small/medium (which is from 2 weeks old to 4 or 5 weeks old)

Once you do that a while you look at the rat and you know whether it is 2 weeks or 4 ;)

Beside that I do not interact with my rats, they are very well taken care of but they are not pets they are food.

I was to consider them pets I am afraid I would no longer be able to feed them of.

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Originally Posted by jben

Thanks Deb and Gary. I now it was not a lack of food or water so stress and maybe another female are the factors here, my inexpirience talking. Now as for considering them "pets" i'm not sure if i can really say that since the only time that i have any contact with them is when i clean the tubs, other than that i do look into their tubs more often than i problably should especially when they were pregnant. but the only reason i have rats is for food. so now my question is how often do you check yours when they are prego? how do you can keep track of how old are the babies so you can start feeding them off? other than feeding, watering and cleaning their tubs, do you just let them be? or maybe i should get them their own barbie doll house...LOL

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I go through my racks twice a week. Once the babies hit around 30 grams they get pulled and set up in a holding bin. If you need smaller then that you have to keep a close eye on them as they grow pretty fast as babies. IMO checking their bin daily doesn't cause any problems.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Communal nursing is always a little more problematic during the first 10 days, the babies are very fragile, the females often fight over them which can lead to severe injuries and death is it the case here? I would doubt it usually you will lose a few babies but not the majority, why is why I chose to keep female alone with their litter for at least the first 7 to 10 days, than I put the female together to raise their litters by than the babies are stronger already.

In your case there are various possibilities.

Since they were alive when they were born you can dismiss that possibility.

Babies might have die later on it is very possible, the mother could have failed to nurse them (new or bad mom) or no be able to nurse them (not producing enough milk).

The female might have killed the babies, that happens too it can be due to stress, presence of another female, lack of food, lack of water etc

You can give her another chance if this time I would recommend to keep her by herself to see how it goes with a litter and if something like that happens again I would retire her.

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Ditto to what Deb said, we do the same here.

thank you all, you have been very helpfull as always. i will definitely take the advice and apply it. no more looking over them 10 times a day. they are breeding for feeders. i will continue to provide fresh food, water and tubs with little disruption and hopefully my colony will improve.