Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!

The newer studies on plastics show that the smell emmited from them is toxic. See article below.

I can bet the bins you use are not ventilated other than a few holes. No fans or anything. So all the gasses are being concentrated in the boxes you're using and it's even worse cause you have heating pads releasing the toxins even faster.

BTW: I'm not talking down to the Tupperwere (See I can spell!) People here. I'm more concerned about the welfare of the creatures we all love. And the toxic gas thing just occured to me right now...So I Googled it and found out what is up about that stink we all smell from plastic stuff.

So what do you think now?




Toxic Plastic 3 - Turn Over the Bottle and Look!

Guest author Miriam Ellis-Loraditch spends half of her time birding, and the other half acting as the CEO of Solas Web Design.

I strive to keep my home environment as natural as I possibly can. We eschew as many big commercial products as possible, knowing that this is step one to avoiding many toxins. However, shopping 'natural' or shopping 'organic' is no guarantee that you've weeded out the bad stuff. For about a year now, I've been using Giovanni Tea Tree Triple Treat Shampoo, because I was impressed by its short list of ingredients and claims of using organic botanicals. No animal bi-products, no animal testing. I thought I was making a good choice.

And then I learned about Toxic Plastic 3.

You've probably heard of Toxic plastic 3 by its other name, PVC, or Vinyl. PVC (Polyvinyl chloride) is considered by many experts to be the most dangerous, carcinogenic plastic ever created by man. It cannot be recycled. It will sit in our landfills until kingdom come, emitting carcinogenic chemicals into the air, water and soil. And despite the studies showing the incredible toxicity of this substance, the FDA approves it for use in the packaging of our food, our health care products, and our medicines.

Where will you find Toxic Plastic 3 in your home?
Turn over any plastic container you have around the house. If you see a '3' or a 'V' stamped into the plastic, you are holding PVC in your hand. As you've guessed, I found that ominous '3' on the bottom of my organic Giovanni shampoo. You will find it on products manufactured by Johnson & Johnson, and Sesame Street bath products. Emeril's Salad Dressing, ACT fluoride rinse, and a host of other health and food items are packaged in this plastic. The carcinogens leach into the products they contain, resulting in your eating PVC and lathering it into your hair, teeth and skin.

Children's toys feature rampant use of PVC. A child chewing on his rubber ducky in the bath is being exposed to levels of cancer-causing chemicals which have led to such items being banned in many European countries. Yet, here in the U.S., you will not even be told that the toys your children play with, the shower curtain in your bathroom, or the pipes under your house contain PVC. PVC causes cancer and kidney damage, and when burned (as in the case of a kitchen fire or house fire) it results in long term respiratory damage.

Greenpeace has written some excellent articles regarding finding alternatives to PVC for your home, and more than 50 environmental groups in the U.S. are currently petitioning numerous stores to stop selling vinyl-containing products. Unfortunately, as with so many consumer product hazards, PVC vinyl continues to receive scant media attention, despite its well-documented harmfulness.

Make the first step toward ridding your home of PVC
Look for the '3' or the 'V' on any plastic or vinyl product in your house. PVC products are often somewhat rubbery and flexible, but not always. PVC gives off a distinct chemical smell (you know, that new shower curtain/new car smell). What you are smelling is toxic gas being released when you open up a new PVC-containing home product. Even if you don't find a '3' or a 'V', but are concerned that an item in your home might contain PVC, please contact the manufacturer to ask. Because our government continues to authorize the use of toxic PVC in the manufacture of homes, cars and products, you are unlikely to be able to completely avoid exposure to it, but you certainly don't need to have it in your shampoo or in the toys your children are playing with. Your first step is to dispose of offending items, and when buying plastic is essential, to choose an alternatively numbered substance. If you'd like to do more, visit Greenpeace for further information.

•For further reading, the Grassroots Recycling network provides access to several extensive reports on PVC toxicity and recycling.

You still mis-spelled it! LOL TupperWARE.

In any case - why does it seem to be your mission here to extol the evil-ness of tubs? Snakes have been kept in tubs for many, many years, collectively longer than most of us have been alive with no ill effects.

Great news! No "3's" or "V's" on the bottom of my Sterilite tubs! :gj:

I don't keep my snakes in a Johnson&Johnson bottle so I guess I'm all set.

Spell Check?

Plastic is toxic when melted and fumes inhaled. I dont believe that article one bit as i dont see plastic being approved to be sold yet it emits Toxins.

Your grasping at straws now and is getting very childish as you wont convince anyone that tubs are bad. I have snakes 4-8 years old been in tubs all their lives and never had problems or will they ever from being in tubs.

Tanks=FISH not for snakes but are most commonly used due to petstores wanting to make MORE money off your purchase.

Everybody has to die someway.


Luckily I eat to much cheese to worry about PVC :rofl:

EVERYTHING CAUSES CANCER, in one way or another.... its all just hyped up... lead wasnt that bad :rolleyes:

but my snake will be staying in his tupperwere container for the rest of his life :rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arsinoe

The newer studies on plastics show that the smell emmited from them is toxic. See article below.

I can bet the bins you use are not ventilated other than a few holes. No fans or anything. So all the gasses are being concentrated in the boxes you're using and it's even worse cause you have heating pads releasing the toxins even faster.

BTW: I'm not talking down to the Tupperwere (See I can spell!) People here. I'm more concerned about the welfare of the creatures we all love. And the toxic gas thing just occured to me right now...So I Googled it and found out what is up about that stink we all smell from plastic stuff.

So what do you think now?



Toxic Plastic 3 - Turn Over the Bottle and Look!

Guest author Miriam Ellis-Loraditch spends half of her time birding, and the other half acting as the CEO of Solas Web Design.

I strive to keep my home environment as natural as I possibly can. We eschew as many big commercial products as possible, knowing that this is step one to avoiding many toxins. However, shopping 'natural' or shopping 'organic' is no guarantee that you've weeded out the bad stuff. For about a year now, I've been using Giovanni Tea Tree Triple Treat Shampoo, because I was impressed by its short list of ingredients and claims of using organic botanicals. No animal bi-products, no animal testing. I thought I was making a good choice.

And then I learned about Toxic Plastic 3.

You've probably heard of Toxic plastic 3 by its other name, PVC, or Vinyl. PVC (Polyvinyl chloride) is considered by many experts to be the most dangerous, carcinogenic plastic ever created by man. It cannot be recycled. It will sit in our landfills until kingdom come, emitting carcinogenic chemicals into the air, water and soil. And despite the studies showing the incredible toxicity of this substance, the FDA approves it for use in the packaging of our food, our health care products, and our medicines.

Where will you find Toxic Plastic 3 in your home?
Turn over any plastic container you have around the house. If you see a '3' or a 'V' stamped into the plastic, you are holding PVC in your hand. As you've guessed, I found that ominous '3' on the bottom of my organic Giovanni shampoo. You will find it on products manufactured by Johnson & Johnson, and Sesame Street bath products. Emeril's Salad Dressing, ACT fluoride rinse, and a host of other health and food items are packaged in this plastic. The carcinogens leach into the products they contain, resulting in your eating PVC and lathering it into your hair, teeth and skin.

Children's toys feature rampant use of PVC. A child chewing on his rubber ducky in the bath is being exposed to levels of cancer-causing chemicals which have led to such items being banned in many European countries. Yet, here in the U.S., you will not even be told that the toys your children play with, the shower curtain in your bathroom, or the pipes under your house contain PVC. PVC causes cancer and kidney damage, and when burned (as in the case of a kitchen fire or house fire) it results in long term respiratory damage.

Greenpeace has written some excellent articles regarding finding alternatives to PVC for your home, and more than 50 environmental groups in the U.S. are currently petitioning numerous stores to stop selling vinyl-containing products. Unfortunately, as with so many consumer product hazards, PVC vinyl continues to receive scant media attention, despite its well-documented harmfulness.

Make the first step toward ridding your home of PVC
Look for the '3' or the 'V' on any plastic or vinyl product in your house. PVC products are often somewhat rubbery and flexible, but not always. PVC gives off a distinct chemical smell (you know, that new shower curtain/new car smell). What you are smelling is toxic gas being released when you open up a new PVC-containing home product. Even if you don't find a '3' or a 'V', but are concerned that an item in your home might contain PVC, please contact the manufacturer to ask. Because our government continues to authorize the use of toxic PVC in the manufacture of homes, cars and products, you are unlikely to be able to completely avoid exposure to it, but you certainly don't need to have it in your shampoo or in the toys your children are playing with. Your first step is to dispose of offending items, and when buying plastic is essential, to choose an alternatively numbered substance. If you'd like to do more, visit Greenpeace for further information.

•For further reading, the Grassroots Recycling network provides access to several extensive reports on PVC toxicity and recycling.

---

i now think that seeing that most people use sterilite or like tubs that our snakes are fine seeing that they are NOT made from pvc.

maybe you should do a little bit more research there

*edit*

seems the same platic the tubs are made from can be found everywhere from hospitals to baby diapers and can be recycled as a #5 plastic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene

Most sterile tubs are do not have "3" or "V" on them, if you find one that does I'll be amazed!

But if you want I can google search glass aquariums and come up with a bogus article about how it's magically bad for people and animals too...You can find all sorts of false info on the Internet.:rolleyes: :rofl:

Hi,

Maybe I missed it but can I ask for links to a respected and peer reviewed scientific journal?

The fact someone likes birds and can run a web design company is nice - but it's not really an equivalency to a degree in chemistry and a thorough and proper research period.

I know offgassing exists for certin types of plastic ( and there are many different types by the way ) - but I also know the FDA has a habit of looking into these things.

If you really want a scary read look up the carcinogenic properties of soya - and people eat that. :O


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seru1

everybody has to die someway.


Luckily i eat to much cheese to worry about pvc :rofl:

---

:8:

well I don't smoke, don't drink and am not currently married ( or have kids) soI got ot dye from something. soI burn another tub and go gas myself some more..
the toxin fumes is from when you actually melt ( burn) the plastics, I learned this a decade ago in school and I still sit around the campfire and melt down a few old butter bowls into large globs of harden platic. :rolleye2:

* then again the one time I got drunk I walked thought the campfire/bonfire to get ot the woods to take a leak lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Maybe I missed it but can I ask for links to a respected and peer reviewed scientific journal?

The fact someone likes birds and can run a web design company is nice - but it's not really an equivalency to a degree in chemistry and a thorough and proper research period.

I know offgassing exists for certin types of plastic ( and there are many different types by the way ) - but I also know the FDA has a habit of looking into these things.

If you really want a scary read look up the carcinogenic properties of soya - and people eat that. :O


dr del

---

Good Sushi is good Sushi! :gj:

No 3 or V under my RBI rack :P Maybe one day i'll burn it and huff it to see if it makes me sick, just in case.

No 3s or Vs here. Let's pick a good, accredited source, shall we? "Heating pads releasing the toxins faster?" Doubt it.

Okay.
TupperwAre = small container used for food. It's a brand name. Like "plasticine", which I remember you used at some point. It has nothing to do with what we keep our animals in.
Tub = a large bin, generally clear, with holes and good enough ventilation, that we do keep our animals in, and apparently not made of any of this any so-called killer plastic.

You should read further. It's not just those numbers.

I guess you'll do what you want regardless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

You should read further. It's not just those numbers.

I guess you'll do what you want regardless.

---

You should also read further. That is not a scientific paper that is peer reviewed. It is written by someone who is not a scientist who keeps birds. We could probably easily find similarly written OPINIONS on how "habitats" are also toxic for your snake.

And you're right, we will continue to keep them in tubs - hundreds of thousands of snakes are living happy healthy lives in properly maintained tubs with perfect humidity, eating, growing, pooping and breeding in tubs all across the US. I don't recall anyone reporting an epidemic of snakes showing up with cancer as a result of doing so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't recall anyone reporting an epidemic of snakes showing up with cancer as a result of doing so.

---

That and i dont see them dieing from an OD of Plastic.


Theres stories on the net of heat pads malfunctioning and melting the tubs and the snake lived with out a problem.

Back to the drawing board :gj:

Bin racist. :rolleyes:

I have noticed that my reptiles have done much, much better in a rack versus a tank.

Temperatures are much more consistent, animals that were off food almost immediately went back on it, colors are better (for my leopard geckos)...

No ill effects here...

As others have stated..thousands and thousands of animals have been kept in racks for many years without ill effect. If you don't like it, don't do it..but don't push it on others and insult them for keeping their animals the way they want to. (ie, don't push your beliefs on others, whatever they may be...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reediculous

(my girlfriend told me its some lady that just had eight plastic surgeries)

---

Did they mention if it was a # "3" or a "V" plastic they used? :8:

I assume not everything we see on the Internet has to be true.

Meaning, that article is bull dump.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arsinoe

The newer studies on plastics show that the smell emmited from them is toxic. See article below.

I can bet the bins you use are not ventilated other than a few holes. No fans or anything. So all the gasses are being concentrated in the boxes you're using and it's even worse cause you have heating pads releasing the toxins even faster.

BTW: I'm not talking down to the Tupperwere (See I can spell!) People here. I'm more concerned about the welfare of the creatures we all love. And the toxic gas thing just occured to me right now...So I Googled it and found out what is up about that stink we all smell from plastic stuff.

So what do you think now?




Toxic Plastic 3 - Turn Over the Bottle and Look!

Guest author Miriam Ellis-Loraditch spends half of her time birding, and the other half acting as the CEO of Solas Web Design.

I strive to keep my home environment as natural as I possibly can. We eschew as many big commercial products as possible, knowing that this is step one to avoiding many toxins. However, shopping 'natural' or shopping 'organic' is no guarantee that you've weeded out the bad stuff. For about a year now, I've been using Giovanni Tea Tree Triple Treat Shampoo, because I was impressed by its short list of ingredients and claims of using organic botanicals. No animal bi-products, no animal testing. I thought I was making a good choice.

And then I learned about Toxic Plastic 3.

You've probably heard of Toxic plastic 3 by its other name, PVC, or Vinyl. PVC (Polyvinyl chloride) is considered by many experts to be the most dangerous, carcinogenic plastic ever created by man. It cannot be recycled. It will sit in our landfills until kingdom come, emitting carcinogenic chemicals into the air, water and soil. And despite the studies showing the incredible toxicity of this substance, the FDA approves it for use in the packaging of our food, our health care products, and our medicines.

Where will you find Toxic Plastic 3 in your home?
Turn over any plastic container you have around the house. If you see a '3' or a 'V' stamped into the plastic, you are holding PVC in your hand. As you've guessed, I found that ominous '3' on the bottom of my organic Giovanni shampoo. You will find it on products manufactured by Johnson & Johnson, and Sesame Street bath products. Emeril's Salad Dressing, ACT fluoride rinse, and a host of other health and food items are packaged in this plastic. The carcinogens leach into the products they contain, resulting in your eating PVC and lathering it into your hair, teeth and skin.

Children's toys feature rampant use of PVC. A child chewing on his rubber ducky in the bath is being exposed to levels of cancer-causing chemicals which have led to such items being banned in many European countries. Yet, here in the U.S., you will not even be told that the toys your children play with, the shower curtain in your bathroom, or the pipes under your house contain PVC. PVC causes cancer and kidney damage, and when burned (as in the case of a kitchen fire or house fire) it results in long term respiratory damage.

Greenpeace has written some excellent articles regarding finding alternatives to PVC for your home, and more than 50 environmental groups in the U.S. are currently petitioning numerous stores to stop selling vinyl-containing products. Unfortunately, as with so many consumer product hazards, PVC vinyl continues to receive scant media attention, despite its well-documented harmfulness.

Make the first step toward ridding your home of PVC
Look for the '3' or the 'V' on any plastic or vinyl product in your house. PVC products are often somewhat rubbery and flexible, but not always. PVC gives off a distinct chemical smell (you know, that new shower curtain/new car smell). What you are smelling is toxic gas being released when you open up a new PVC-containing home product. Even if you don't find a '3' or a 'V', but are concerned that an item in your home might contain PVC, please contact the manufacturer to ask. Because our government continues to authorize the use of toxic PVC in the manufacture of homes, cars and products, you are unlikely to be able to completely avoid exposure to it, but you certainly don't need to have it in your shampoo or in the toys your children are playing with. Your first step is to dispose of offending items, and when buying plastic is essential, to choose an alternatively numbered substance. If you'd like to do more, visit Greenpeace for further information.

•For further reading, the Grassroots Recycling network provides access to several extensive reports on PVC toxicity and recycling.

---

What do I think now? I used to work for S.C. Johnson (think Ziploc). I know for a fact that none of this is true. I've seen the true lab and test results. You didn't really do that much research on this, did you? This has been an urban legend circulating on the internet since around 2002.

Your crusade isn't going to change how people do things. Look at the HUGE breeders, the ones that have their snakes in gigantic racks of plastic bins. Their snakes are some of the healthiest out there.

Guess what? Beanie Babies were made with PVC pellets! I collected them as a kid... and I'm still alive! No cancer, diseases, anything from PVC.

Anyway, if plastic was so terrible for snakes, wouldn't they be dying like crazy? How do you think breeders stay in business? They don't keep each snake in a glass habitat.

Where did you get your animals from? What does your habitat look like? I mean, you obviously know some secret of snake keeping that we don't, since your snakes are so much happier than ours. Your really gaining a lot of enemies, here. There are a lot of other ways to make your point known than by the way your doing it. What is going to happen when you need all of us for something some day and we all ignore you because of how arrogant you are towards us for how we do things? After all, we wouldn't want to give you advice that your just going to stick up your nose to, and then just start another thread about how we're wrong for using a certain bedding or something.

You don't have to agree with how we do things around here. We all get along fine, we have some debates, and we get over it and move on, while accepting each others point of view. That really isn't happening in your case.

Edit: I forgot to add, if something is toxic for birds, it will specifically state that. Birds have extremely sensitive lungs, which is why they die so easily. Birds are also made up differently than snakes. Check out the things in your house, a lot of it will specifically state birds.

Well, I don't know about toxic plastic, but EVERYONE knows cell phones give you brain tumors, I don't see the cell phone companies going out of business.

Really, you are just here to rile people, with nothing useful to contribute to this community at all.

Frankly, I find you childish and pathetic at best, and I have no further use for you or anything you have to say.

Gale

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie And Lucy

What do I think now? I used to work for S.C. Johnson (think Ziploc). I know for a fact that none of this is true. I've seen the true lab and test results. You didn't really do that much research on this, did you? This has been an urban legend circulating on the internet since around 2002.

Your crusade isn't going to change how people do things. Look at the HUGE breeders, the ones that have their snakes in gigantic racks of plastic bins. Their snakes are some of the healthiest out there.

Guess what? Beanie Babies were made with PVC pellets! I collected them as a kid... and I'm still alive! No cancer, diseases, anything from PVC.

Anyway, if plastic was so terrible for snakes, wouldn't they be dying like crazy? How do you think breeders stay in business? They don't keep each snake in a glass habitat.

Where did you get your animals from? What does your habitat look like? I mean, you obviously know some secret of snake keeping that we don't, since your snakes are so much happier than ours. Your really gaining a lot of enemies, here. There are a lot of other ways to make your point known than by the way your doing it. What is going to happen when you need all of us for something some day and we all ignore you because of how arrogant you are towards us for how we do things? After all, we wouldn't want to give you advice that your just going to stick up your nose to, and then just start another thread about how we're wrong for using a certain bedding or something.

You don't have to agree with how we do things around here. We all get along fine, we have some debates, and we get over it and move on, while accepting each others point of view. That really isn't happening in your case.

---

See the secret here is Mrs. Knowitall has a very very very very very very 1 of a kind rare morph! Its called the limbic Ball python. Its a special snake that developed a limbic system equal to a dog or cat, it has also developed rudimentary vocal cords so it can talk as well as the necessary cognitive functions to hold a basic conversation. :D

I said it before and I shall say it again a little less harshly because I was very harsh last time.

Arsinoe is obviously unwilling to learn about proper care for her animals. She has also proven that she is arrogant and unwilling to listen to any opinion but her own, she should there for have her animals taken away until she can at least learn about proper care of her animals!

@ the admins.. Technically I don't think there has been any rules broken. But is there ANYTHING you guys can do about these ridicules posts? This is the third topic created where Arsinoe has done nothing but be passive aggressive and preach her superior knowledge about something she has know clue about. This is a forum to help people and exchange ideas, and doing that is fantastic! What she is doing is not just exchanging ideas, she is preaching, being rude, arrogant, judgmental and irritating. I Come here to relax and continue my education on ball pythons. Not get infuriated because someone thinks she is better then everybody and continues to try flaunt and push it in everyone's face.

:( Probobly just going to get told not to read her posts anymore, but I thought I'd throw that out there, I don't know how many people feel the way I do, but this kind of crap is not the reason I come here and needs to be put to an end!

The fumes from PVC are toxic, and it leaches into our food and water supply. BPA got the most attention, but it's not the only toxic plastic we're using.

The problem is, when these things were tested, it was assumed that a large quantity of something would have a stronger affect on the body than a smaller quantity. That proved to not be the case with plastics. Minute doses can induce BIG changes.

Now it's too late, and we can't get away from them. They're pervasive in the environment--everywhere. They're causing an increase in birth defects such as hypospadias, and a variety of other problems that are still poorly understood. Cancer is just part of it.

If you somehow managed to remove all plastics from your environment, and had a daughter, her children will still be affected by these chemicals. Scary? Indeed.

They would never allow an unsafe plastic to be sold? BPA was used in baby bottles right up til just a few years ago, and it's been in production since the 1940s, so rethink that assumption. That's some seriously bad stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

And it STILL HASN'T BEEN BANNED.

Here's an article in Time Magazine about phthalates and PVC:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...990361,00.html

Here's some very technical fun stuff about what phthalates do:
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...tract/kfm069v1

Our environment is just chock full of endocrine disrupters, and there's no way we can escape from them now. I doubt that the bins we keep our ball pythons in are any worse for them than the chemicals in the water they drink, or that are concentrated in the rats they eat.

The sterilite tubs we use are made of polypropolene plastic. My racks, however, are expanded PVC. Unless you buy special melamine, though, the particle board beneath the melamine coating is made with formaldehyde, so that's not a great option either. I see no reason not to keep using my racks, as I feel that the damage has already been done.

So what's the result? Maybe a few more males that are lazy breeders, or aren't very fertile. A few more problems with hatchlings. But it's always been that way, so we didn't really notice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The fumes from PVC are toxic, and it leaches into our food and water supply. BPA got the most attention, but it's not the only toxic plastic we're using.

The problem is, when these things were tested, it was assumed that a large quantity of something would have a stronger affect on the body than a smaller quantity. That proved to not be the case with plastics. Minute doses can induce BIG changes.

Now it's too late, and we can't get away from them. They're pervasive in the environment--everywhere. They're causing an increase in birth defects such as hypospadias, and a variety of other problems that are still poorly understood. Cancer is just part of it.

If you somehow managed to remove all plastics from your environment, and had a daughter, her children will still be affected by these chemicals. Scary? Indeed.

They would never allow an unsafe plastic to be sold? BPA was used in baby bottles right up til just a few years ago, and it's been in production since the 1940s, so rethink that assumption. That's some seriously bad stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

And it STILL HASN'T BEEN BANNED.

Here's an article in Time Magazine about phthalates and PVC:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...990361,00.html

Here's some very technical fun stuff about what phthalates do:
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...tract/kfm069v1

Our environment is just chock full of endocrine disrupters, and there's no way we can escape from them now. I doubt that the bins we keep our ball pythons in are any worse for them than the chemicals in the water they drink, or that are concentrated in the rats they eat.

The sterilite tubs we use are made of polypropolene plastic. My racks, however, are expanded PVC. Unless you buy special melamine, though, the particle board beneath the melamine coating is made with formaldehyde, so that's not a great option either. I see no reason not to keep using my racks, as I feel that the damage has already been done.

So what's the result? Maybe a few more males that are lazy breeders, or aren't very fertile. A few more problems with hatchlings. But it's always been that way, so we didn't really notice.

---

How can you honestly attribute lazy males and problem hatchlings to the plastic tubs? Really?? Maybe I'm "stuck in the old ways of thinking" or whatever, but it seems like a bit of a reach.

Don't delude yourselves for the sake of convenience, or claiming that ignorance is bliss

PVC causes cancer. PVC fumes from melting/burning are extremely carcinogenic. I don't know enough about PVC in a solid state to comment on that.

I still use many items made out of PVC. it's a risk I take. I make soft plastic fishing lures out of a PVC material which requires heating. It creates carcinogenic fumes. I make sure to do it with EXTREMELY good ventilation. People have gotten cancer doing what I do, but ignoring the risks and heating/pouring soft plastic lures without ventilation. Luckily the one I've corrosponded with firsthand have been treated successfully.

I have also made didgeridoos out of PVC pipe. One of the techniques to make a PVC didj seem more like their natural wood eucalyptus cousins is to heat them with a heat gun until they become flexible, to add bends/twists/bulges/dents. I don't do this myself, because of the fumes that heating PVC gives off. Although I expose myself to the lure fumes, I do try to limit myself as much as possible.

I cannot stress this enough. PVC fumes have been proven to be extremely carcinogenic. PVC is also EVERYWHERE in our society, and we couldn't live like we do without it.

It's important to acknowledge risks, even if you choose to take them. Again, don't delude yourselves. Take precautions, keep yourself aware, and don't complain if it all goes to hell. Ignorance is only bliss until you die a horrible death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David802

@ the admins.. Technically I don't think there has been any rules broken. But is there ANYTHING you guys can do about these ridicules posts? This is the third topic created where Arsinoe has done nothing but be passive aggressive and preach her superior knowledge about something she has know clue about. This is a forum to help people and exchange ideas, and doing that is fantastic! What she is doing is not just exchanging ideas, she is preaching, being rude, arrogant, judgmental and irritating. I Come here to relax and continue my education on ball pythons. Not get infuriated because someone thinks she is better then everybody and continues to try flaunt and push it in everyone's face.

:( Probobly just going to get told not to read her posts anymore, but I thought I'd throw that out there, I don't know how many people feel the way I do, but this kind of crap is not the reason I come here and needs to be put to an end!

---

You're right in that no rules have been broken here...although if I wanted to get extremely nit-picky, I might think calling her a "Ms Knowitall" might be construed as name-calling.

Yes, it IS very annoying at times when someone gets on a really big soapbox about a particular issue they are passionate about...most especially when their position doesn't seem to be backed up by anything but personal opinion. But...do you ("you" being anyone reading and participating in this thread, not necessarily just the member being quoted)...do you really think that the overall participation in this thread has been beneficial to the site?

We get complaints that so-n-so really shouldn't be starting such an annoying thread because it doesn't help the site....but at the same time, the same folks making such a complaint spend their time mocking and otherwise deriding the points made in the original post. Which is more harmful to the overall atmosphere of the site? The original post? Or all the mocking scorn that comes after it?

Seriously....I don't agree with her position. And I don't mind anyone offering up an attempt at a logical, reasonable rebuttal. But all the negative posts made AFTER the original offending post are just as bad, if not worse.

So yeah....I'll just tell everyone who doesn't like what she has to say to simply skip her threads or put her on Ignore altogether. But so long as she respects the site and the rules of the site, she has just as much right to express her opinion here as everyone else.

Basically what you have cut and pasted (I would need to go back and check to see if you actually properly cited the original source?) is an editorial.

I have graded academic papers, edited a book, worked as an academic researcher and have published in peer-reviewed journals (journal of psychology and human sexuality for example - shoddy little publication but they told me it was prestigious)... so I am going to go out on a limb and say that I may be able to evaluate your resource and conclude the article would not be acceptable at even a tenth grade level as an appropriate resource?

I have not written a tenth grade paper, well... since the tenth grade, but I understand there is a push now for preparing young adults to write a proper paper?

Nor would recycling companies, Greenpeace, Time Magazine, or Wikipedia make the grade...

Sorry, I would have to negative mark you on that.

This does not mean that your points are not true, it simply means your sources are not credible, nor have you made a compelling arguement.

And in your previous thread/poll your language (descriptive and emotive) attempted to portray a negative slant to one side (not yours) and a positive slant to the other (yours).

So in addition to actually writing a compelling and engaging arguement you need to work on your choice of wording and let your facts make your point. Manipulating language and using negative desciptors is a cheap way to try and make your point (and exactly why Time and Greenpeace are not credible sources).

Good luck with it.

I am looking forward to reading something a bit more substantial from you on the issue.

Bruce

PS: Citations. Citations. Citations.

Hi,

Off topic portions of this thread have been moved to the quarantine room and can now be found here.

Anyone needing access to the quarantine room should contact any member of the admin team - names in red in the userlist.


dr del

I wonder how many documented cases there has been of snakes dieing of plastic toxins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Off topic portions of this thread have been moved to the quarantine room and can now be found here.

Anyone needing access to the quarantine room should contact any member of the admin team - names in red in the userlist.


dr del

---

I'd ask to see the quarantine room but I'm not particularly interested in seeing a bunch of argumentive remarks from people who don't want to admit that plastics have their problems......And the govt doesn't want to do anything about it.

The shop I bought Alexander used Tanks. It's a reptile dedicated privately operated store. Not a Petco etc. I might add I think they use a swamp cooler instead of refrigerated air, cause it's always rather muggy inside even with the fron't door open and additional fans going. That must be how they keep the humidity up for the snakes. Since swamp coolers don't really work here any more, southern NM, it seems to do the trick for the store.

Is there a viable way to ventilate tubs so fumes don't accumulate? Probably not.

PS: How'd you know about Alexander being able to talk? He can tap dance too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

I'd ask to see the quarantine room but I'm not particularly interested in seeing a bunch of argumentive remarks from people who don't want to admit that plastics have their problems......And the govt doesn't want to do anything about it.

The shop I bought Alexander used Tanks. It's a reptile dedicated privately operated store. Not a Petco etc. I might add I think they use a swamp cooler instead of refrigerated air, cause it's always rather muggy inside even with the fron't door open and additional fans going. That must be how they keep the humidity up for the snakes. Since swamp coolers don't really work here any more, southern NM, it seems to do the trick for the store.

Is there a viable way to ventilate tubs so fumes don't accumulate? Probably not.

PS: How'd you know about Alexander being able to talk? He can tap dance too!

---

1st the post that were removed were not about people even talking about plastic being good or bad they were actually talking about voltron, john and kate plus 8 the yankees and micheal jackson so your not missing anything.

2nd pet stores (even ones that are didicated) are looking to make money and in order to get the most income as they can they put animals where they can be seen the best and tanks do that well just like grocery stores putting the sugar cereals at kids eye level people want what they see..... out of site out of mind people like to buy on impulse.
they also like to put more animals in smaller tanks than they should be in more tanks with more animals in a smaller area means more money that they can make. this is one of the reasons you hear alot about not buying animals from pet stores they are not kept correctly. pet stores are also most times are bad places to get advice on keeping your pet. if they can sell you $100 worth of stuff that you dont need even if its wrong they will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

Is there a viable way to ventilate tubs so fumes don't accumulate? Probably not.

---

do you know the exact rate to which these fumes accumlate in an area and how much air movment is needed to keep the air at a level that is healthy? if you do then we can figure out if we are ventilating enough. ive seen no post on any website about snakes or any animals passing away from platic fumes so im gonna go out on a limb here and say that 1 there probably is a way to vent and 2 that pretty much everyone useing tubs is venting enough.

also know that with snakes they dont breath the same as us so even in a area that we couldnt breath snakes would be just fine thats why you dont see people using a gas chamber to put snakes to sleep like you see with rats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

1st the post that were removed were not about people even talking about plastic being good or bad they were actually talking about voltron, john and kate plus 8 the yankees and micheal jackson so your not missing anything.

2nd pet stores (even ones that are didicated) are looking to make money and in order to get the most income as they can they put animals where they can be seen the best and tanks do that well just like grocery stores putting the sugar cereals at kids eye level people want what they see..... out of site out of mind people like to buy on impulse.
they also like to put more animals in smaller tanks than they should be in more tanks with more animals in a smaller area means more money that they can make. this is one of the reasons you hear alot about not buying animals from pet stores they are not kept correctly. pet stores are also most times are bad places to get advice on keeping your pet. if they can sell you $100 worth of stuff that you dont need even if its wrong they will.




do you know the exact rate to which these fumes accumlate in an area and how much air movment is needed to keep the air at a level that is healthy? if you do then we can figure out if we are ventilating enough. ive seen no post on any website about snakes or any animals passing away from platic fumes so im gonna go out on a limb here and say that 1 there probably is a way to vent and 2 that pretty much everyone useing tubs is venting enough.

also know that with snakes they dont breath the same as us so even in a area that we couldnt breath snakes would be just fine thats why you dont see people using a gas chamber to put snakes to sleep like you see with rats.

---

1st----WHY???

2nd---I have no idea about the accumulation rate. But wouldn't it be counter productive to ventilate, humidity and even temp wise? Especially if you use a fan.

It seems site wise that they probably don't mention animals and the effects on them since I'm sure they believe that if it's bad for humans, it's bad for everyone else too.........And if they do mentionit, that sort of insinuate that they may have tested it on said animal and not politically correct you know.

Actually this local store breeds their own. So it's not quite a classic pet store. I noticed that they restrict the supplies they sell to what's needed, Not a bunch of extra fluff stuff.

&

You can't gas a snake???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

1st----WHY???

2nd---I have no idea about the accumulation rate. But wouldn't it be counter productive to ventilate, humidity and even temp wise? Especially if you use a fan.

It seems site wise that they probably don't mention animals and the effects on them since I'm sure they believe that if it's bad for humans, it's bad for everyone else too.........And if they do mentionit, that sort of insinuate that they may have tested it on said animal and not politically correct you know.

Actually this local store breeds their own. So it's not quite a classic pet store. I noticed that they restrict the supplies they sell to what's needed, Not a bunch of extra fluff stuff.

&

You can't gas a snake???

---

1: Because it was better than your discussion.

2: Even if it is a specialty reptile store, they still hold them in tanks for one reason: so people can see, and buy them. They don't breed in those tanks, go ask them.
They probably house more than one of the same animals in the tanks as well, which everyone should know is not how they should be kept. It's ok for the store, they have to make money and they normally care for the animals, but it's not how you'd care for them at your house.

3: You ignore all the points contradicting your opinion, even though most just say get a credible source before basing your opinion. If you do that, then maybe we'll give your opinion a second chance.

4: You're not making any friends this way...:weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

1st----WHY???

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got off topic things happen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

2nd---I have no idea about the accumulation rate. But wouldn't it be counter productive to ventilate, humidity and even temp wise? Especially if you use a fan.

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holes are put in tubs to vent and if it was in the snakes best interest we would adjust accordingly to keep the humidity and temps correct as i assume you would if you had to put a fan in your tank to keep everything right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

It seems site wise that they probably don't mention animals and the effects on them since I'm sure they believe that if it's bad for humans, it's bad for everyone else too.........And if they do mentionit, that sort of insinuate that they may have tested it on said animal and not politically correct you know.

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you would have to assume that with so many animals (pets) being kept in plastic tubs around the world and no reports of them dying that the fumes that are comming from them would have to be to low enough not to effect them right?

i mean just on this site alone you can find a few thousand snakes that are kept in tubs for years and years with no ill effects so that has to be pretty good data (and people keep very good records of their snakes ie feeding, shedding, etc) to come up with some sort of conclusion. its gotta be pretty close to if not more than the data they get b4 the fda approves a new drug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

You can't gas a snake???

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its not that you "cant" it just takes alot longer reptiles can shut down their bodies to survive

Testing on rats is still being conducted--of course these chemicals have not yet been tested on reptiles to see what effects they're having.

However, if we extrapolate from rat studies, we would expect to see feminized males and increased birth defects. We do see those in ball python clutches--but we began breeding these animals in captivity after these plastics began to be used, so we have no 'clean' examples to study. Are these cases due to the plastics we use? If the rat studies can be extrapolated, then it would seem logical that at least some of them are.

Endocrine disruption isn't a fantasy. These chemicals have very real effects on fetal development. These effects aren't questionable at all--the argument has been made that just because they effect rats doesn't mean they'll effect other animals. While a valid complaint in a minor way, we can already see evidence of endocrine disruption occurring in other species, including ours, so it would seem more logical to error on the side of caution while we wait for that confirmation.

Since you didn't like the OP's supporting links, I provided more legitimate ones. They say the same thing.

Here's more scientific information on BPA:
http://www.endocrinedisruption.com/e...ol.summary.php

It's important to understand that these chemicals feminize males and can even masculinize females. So, are they responsible for 'lazy males'? I'm sure other things could cause that as well...but these chemicals most certainly can. I guess I'm missing how this is a 'reach'.

Human fertility is also being affected noticeably. While humans have always been a pretty fecund species, one must admit that a decline in humans' actual ABILITY to reproduce isn't something to be dismissed lightly.
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ract/17/6/1437

It's also making our kids obese--I know, it's a shock that it's not the candy, but kids used to eat candy before we had plastics, too.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s-in-plastics/

If it affects rats and humans, why not ball pythons? Alligators have responded to different endocrine disruptors--most famously, in Lake Apopka. Judging by alligator reactions, reptiles can be expected to show the same signs that mammals do when exposed to low levels of endocrine disrupting chemicals of other types.

I'm not saying we should stop using these PVC racks--perhaps the convenience, the ease of keeping things sanitary, and the light weight all contribute to making it worth the problems they may cause--and as I said, it's not as though we can provide them with an environment that's free of endocrine disrupting chemicals anyhow. We can't...not anymore. So we might as well make the best of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Testing on rats is still being conducted--of course these chemicals have not yet been tested on reptiles to see what effects they're having.

However, if we extrapolate from rat studies, we would expect to see feminized males and increased birth defects. We do see those in ball python clutches--but we began breeding these animals in captivity after these plastics began to be used, so we have no 'clean' examples to study. Are these cases due to the plastics we use? If the rat studies can be extrapolated, then it would seem logical that at least some of them are..............................................................

---

that argument works for pvc but if you look at the ops past post in other threads as well they are against tubs all together and the pvc toxic post is just another bash at them. now for the tubs that are used they are not made of pvc and it would appear that the op would still have a problem with using tubs even when pvc isnt used at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

I think you all know I hate it when snakes have to live in plastic bins. For those who just have a snake or two I want to make a poll to find out if you made a nice comfy habitat for your snake to live in or you dump it in plasticwear for convience sake.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

BTW: I'm not talking down to the Tupperwere (See I can spell!)

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

See that is amusing. You know what i would like? A summary of what that report says. Because i bet you that you do not even understand what they are talking about. You just seen something that said toxic plastic and said OH LOOK I CAN USE THIS FOR MY NAZI TUB REGIME

Edit: You know what would be a good poll to start? How many people's snakes have died due to plastic tubs! LOL

First of all I didn't include plastic bin discussions for breeders. Mainly cause I don't see a viable alternative.

Secondly: For an owner of a privately owned snake or two making chavelier remarks...such as "You have to die of something".....I consider just fine for your own personal 'health'. But if you've chosen to be the guardian of another life and you purposely take that attitute...........Well I don't need to say how that comes off.

Thirdly: It seems to me that the no one is paying a bit of attention to what the more experienced members here are posting about plastics as well that supports my view. WHY???

Fourthly: Tanks can be hard to work with but not impossible. Too bad something custom can't be made for breeders to use in racks. With all the snake people around, there would be a market for it. Maybe something in stainless steel with a viewing window and a matching top with the appropriate holes for ventilation.

[QUOTE= You know what would be a good poll to start? How many people's snakes have died due to plastic tubs! LOL[/QUOTE]

I doubt many people would have correlated the death of their snake to their choice of habitat. But I do have one I'm sure you won't like either....:colbert:

It seems to me there is quite a lot of things in this thread. A habitat 'debate' argument really it is a lifestyle choice in my opinion and I won't judge yours if you don't mine. Then there is a plastic discussion which has some merit. I don't care if you use tubs tanks or enclosures as long as you are doing your best to provide correct environmental controls and your keep your animals healthy not my concern.

Plastic I have read a few studies they exist. Can stats be 100% trusted... no. I did a stats class years ago and it was how to manipulate numbers. What I do know is BPA containing plastics were recalled by two huge retailers. How much did they spend to shift. A LOT! Canada is moving to BAN the use of BPA plastic for baby bottles.

Currently HDPE is the accepted alternative for human food. The good news there are very few BPA plastics used in large size tubs. Most are HDPE, sterilite, really useful, and KIS. they are the only ones I have here. Personally I care way too much about my snakes welfare to not check what plastic is used for my snakes home. If there is a chance that BPA could harm my snake I don't want him living in it. I use a vision enclosure for mine and guess what it is made of plastic it isn't just tubs. The results of the studies on bpa are not all in yet but it is not looking as dire as it was 2 years ago. They so far are guarded.

My PERSONAL bottom line, I am responsible for the life and health for the animals in my care and I take that seriously, I am sure that if you are reading this you do too. I am checking the plastics because there is a CHANCE that there MIGHT be so health impact. For MYSELF this is my responsibility and I take that seriously. I actually don't know what a vision cage is made from I believe it is PE or HDPE but if anyone knows PLEASE let me know.
Alex

www.bisphenol-a.org

p://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiques.gc.ca/challenge-defi/batch-lot-2/bisphenol-a/res-rech-eng.php

http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceparegistry/doc...ba/tdm-toc.cfm

http://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiqu...enol-a-eng.php

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

It seems to me there is quite a lot of things in this thread. A habitat 'debate' argument really it is a lifestyle choice in my opinion and I won't judge yours if you don't mine. Then there is a plastic discussion which has some merit. I don't care if you use tubs tanks or enclosures as long as you are doing your best to provide correct environmental controls and your keep your animals healthy not my concern.

Plastic I have read a few studies they exist. Can stats be 100% trusted... no. I did a stats class years ago and it was how to manipulate numbers. What I do know is BPA containing plastics were recalled by two huge retailers. How much did they spend to shift. A LOT! Canada is moving to BAN the use of BPA plastic for baby bottles.

Currently HDPE is the accepted alternative for human food. The good news there are very few BPA plastics used in large size tubs. Most are HDPE, sterilite, really useful, and KIS. they are the only ones I have here. Personally I care way too much about my snakes welfare to not check what plastic is used for my snakes home. If there is a chance that BPA could harm my snake I don't want him living in it. I use a vision enclosure for mine and guess what it is made of plastic it isn't just tubs. The results of the studies on bpa are not all in yet but it is not looking as dire as it was 2 years ago. They so far are guarded.

My PERSONAL bottom line, I am responsible for the life and health for the animals in my care and I take that seriously, I am sure that if you are reading this you do too. I am checking the plastics because there is a CHANCE that there MIGHT be so health impact. For MYSELF this is my responsibility and I take that seriously. I actually don't know what a vision cage is made from I believe it is PE or HDPE but if anyone knows PLEASE let me know.
Alex

www.bisphenol-a.org

p://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiques.gc.ca/challenge-defi/batch-lot-2/bisphenol-a/res-rech-eng.php

http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceparegistry/doc...ba/tdm-toc.cfm

http://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiqu...enol-a-eng.php

---

so your saying that as long as we use tubs made with plastics like that in sterilite (which most of us do) we wont have to worry about pvc toxins?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

First of all I didn't include plastic bin discussions for breeders. Mainly cause I don't see a viable alternative.

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It's not just because they have no other alternative. I'm sure that if ball pythons hated plastic bins and their health was jeopardized by them (excluding the gas thing at this point... I feel as though all points possible have been made about it, and I only used recycled, enviornment friendly bins anywho) all of their breeder and keeper bp's would be in tanks. All you have to do is ask them. The health of their snakes come first, not just the convenience it provides the breeder. :oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

Secondly: For an owner of a privately owned snake or two making chavelier remarks...such as "You have to die of something".....I consider just fine for your own personal 'health'. But if you've chosen to be the guardian of another life and you purposely take that attitute...........Well I don't need to say how that comes off.

---

I'm sure they were just being sarcastic as they probably didn't agree with what your argument was. No need to agitate even more gravel. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

Thirdly: It seems to me that the no one is paying a bit of attention to what the more experienced members here are posting about plastics as well that supports my view. WHY???

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It seems that almost everyone who has agreed that plastics can be harmful also state that the studies that have been done on those plastics aren't 100% reliable in one way or another -- for both sides of the argument. There are certain plastics that are indeed harmful, and there are certain plastics that are only harmful when melted or burned. There are also plastics that are relatively safe, and I'm sure that 99% of all of the plastic bin wielding snake owners out there only use plastics that will not bring any harm upon their snakes. And like stated earlier (though I don't remember by who), if you don't like either glass OR plastic, you can always get a custom snake storage tank built.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

Fourthly: Tanks can be hard to work with but not impossible. Too bad something custom can't be made for breeders to use in racks. With all the snake people around, there would be a market for it. Maybe something in stainless steel with a viewing window and a matching top with the appropriate holes for ventilation.

---

While I am leaning on the plastic side of things, only because I do have bins, if a tank is better for you then fine. No one's going to kick your door in and call you a horrible person because you have your snake in a tank. :P Do right by the snake, not by the owner!

Metals are not ideal for snakes, as they can steal body heat, get too hot and cause burns, and can basically act as an "oven," and cause some unwanted side effects on your snake. There's always wood and a screen top, but that's going right back to custom built.

Let's just all agree to dissagree. ;)

Alright I will do my best here.

I think you need to look at what has first priority in terms of your snakes health. The first and most important thing you can give your ball python is a proper temperature gradient. If you don't provide a proper thermal gradient your snake will die.

Of second most importance is security. If a ball python does not feel safe it will not eat. There are snakes that will starve themselves to death.

Next would be a clean source for healthy feeders. and so on and so on..

Now, 90% of the temperature and security problems I see are because people use these large naturalistic tank setup for ball pythons. If you can't get your temps right, that is a serious problem! That alone will jeopardize the life of your animal. If moving them to a tub setup fixes your temperature problem and you are willing to switch to tubs, then go for that.

Tubs fix the first and most important parts of husbandry that most everyone has problems with when they use glass tanks. I would say that every person who uses tanks for ball pythons has had some issue with husbandry at some point.

Now, plastic might some how be toxic to us and our pets. I honestly have not seen a shred of evidence to support that the plastic tubs I use have harmful effects on my snakes. I doubt anyone who uses plastic tubs for their animals have seen any kind of correlation between this harmful plastic and sickness in their animals. Why? Because tubs help keep temperature consistent, they keep humidity up, they make our animals feel safe.

In short, this supposed toxicity of plastic is not the first thing you should be worrying about when it comes to the well being of your animal. It is proper husbandry. Proper husbandry will always come first.

Now if they somehow prove that ALL plastic will kill my animals, then I will stop using it. The fact is, it doesn't harm them at all. It doesn't give off fumes, or make them sick in anyway. All of my snakes are 100% healthy because I moved them to tubs.

Now, I am not saying that you absolutely need to use tubs, tanks can work just fine! I just have a problem with you saying that tubs are HARMFUL to my animals which they obviously are not.

:/ Don't knock it until you try it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

:/ Don't knock it until you try it.

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Sums up everything. :D

Eugene Bessette has snakes older than most of the people on this board that still produce... kept in tubs... just sayin..

771subliminal "so your saying that as long as we use tubs made with plastics like that in sterilite (which most of us do) we wont have to worry about pvc toxins?"

looks like from the results so far most of the studies I have looked at so far (there are quite a few folks) are still in year 2 of 5 so the results are not final. It looks like Most larger tubs are likely not BPA containing. Lexan seems to be the biggest problem and few (if any?) tubs are lexan. However some drop down doors on customs might be. To my mind a little bit of bpa plastic is such a small amount that it is likely ok (say a plastic plant) but I would be concerned by the whole enclosure out gassing.

I know that chemical impact is based on body weight. I know that the amounts of out gassing from plastic are small. Logic says that smaller snakes should effected more than larger. I also know that sudden death occurs in many snakes, and is not well understood. Could toxic out gassing play a part? I don't know. I know I will avoid Plastic codes 3, 6, 7. All the tubs I can find at home are mostly 5 and listed as safer. Better safe than sorry.
A

Hi,

I appologise in advance for only dealing with some of the points raised but quite a lot of this is so far outside of my knowledge I couldn't even speculate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Testing on rats is still being conducted--of course these chemicals have not yet been tested on reptiles to see what effects they're having.

---

has it been tested on birds do you know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

However, if we extrapolate from rat studies,......

---

Sadly we really can't - mammalian and reptile biology simply are not that close.

There are many chemicals in mammals that seem to have no effect on reptiles - or have a beneficial effect in mammals but toxic effects in reptiles. The pain killers in the antibacterial creams we use for minor cuts and scrapes comes to mind for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

...... we would expect to see feminized males and increased birth defects. We do see those in ball python clutches--but we began breeding these animals in captivity after these plastics began to be used, so we have no 'clean' examples to study. Are these cases due to the plastics we use? If the rat studies can be extrapolated, then it would seem logical that at least some of them are.

---

I'm sorry but this is so full of errors it's utterly invalid.

Cite me one example of a feminised male ball python. In fact, define a feminised ball python by indicators ( physical or behavioural ) or genetic anomalies. The last one could be difficult since we have not mapped the genome to know what is normal.

Show me where the incidence of birth defects is larger (statistically per clutch ) among breeders using plastic housing and those using glass. Or, indeed, show me any evidence that birth defects per clutch are increasing at all.

Every single animal coming in from Africa is a clean sample - and we know how large that number is.

Your last sentence is flawed as it is basing an assumption on a guess. To early man looking up and seeing the stars revolve in the sky it was logical to infer that the universe revolved around the earth. And that was based on verifiable empirical evidence - every time they looked up in fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Endocrine disruption isn't a fantasy. These chemicals have very real effects on fetal development. These effects aren't questionable at all--the argument has been made that just because they effect rats doesn't mean they'll effect other animals. While a valid complaint in a minor way, we can already see evidence of endocrine disruption occurring in other species, including ours, so it would seem more logical to error on the side of caution while we wait for that confirmation.

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In mammals - which have an ongoing symbiotic relationship with the developing fetus and pass many chemicals between them for an extended time. We are mammals so the mention that they effect us is largely irrelevant.

Hence my question about birds - while still being different their reproduvtive method may be similar enough to measure transfer of toxins between mother and fetus during egg formation.

The point of non-compatability between animals with such different metabolism and chemistry is not minor at all. They can target toxins that will only kill certain insects while haveing no effect on others and yet you feel that these chemicals will behave exactly the same between mammals and reptiles?

Caution is a fine thing - but it must be guided by facts not folklore or supposition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Since you didn't like the OP's supporting links, I provided more legitimate ones. They say the same thing.

Here's more scientific information on BPA:
http://www.endocrinedisruption.com/e...ol.summary.php

---

Again not a peer reviewed scientific journal but a website with an agenda - but I will try to find time to read it later and get back to you on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's important to understand that these chemicals feminize males and can even masculinize females. So, are they responsible for 'lazy males'? I'm sure other things could cause that as well...but these chemicals most certainly can. I guess I'm missing how this is a 'reach'.

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I'm not sure how accurate breeding behaviour can be as an indicator without further information on whether it is biologically or environmentally based. Possibly some measure of hormone levels against a control group?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Human fertility is also being affected noticeably. While humans have always been a pretty fecund species, one must admit that a decline in humans' actual ABILITY to reproduce isn't something to be dismissed lightly.
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ract/17/6/1437

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An intresting point indeed - especially in a world with more humans on it than ever before and, indeed facing a massive overpopulation problem. But again - we are mammals so any effect these chemicals (specifically ) could be having on us is still not evidence for anything outside the mammal group.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's also making our kids obese--I know, it's a shock that it's not the candy, but kids used to eat candy before we had plastics, too.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s-in-plastics/

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They also used to run and play outside and were unlikely to be able to consume quite the extent of candy or unhealthy food as they do now. The amount of processed food with added salt and sugar were nowhere near as common as a large part of the diet.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If it affects rats and humans, why not ball pythons? Alligators have responded to different endocrine disruptors--most famously, in Lake Apopka. Judging by alligator reactions, reptiles can be expected to show the same signs that mammals do when exposed to low levels of endocrine disrupting chemicals of other types.

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You answered your own question.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not saying we should stop using these PVC racks--perhaps the convenience, the ease of keeping things sanitary, and the light weight all contribute to making it worth the problems they may cause--and as I said, it's not as though we can provide them with an environment that's free of endocrine disrupting chemicals anyhow. We can't...not anymore. So we might as well make the best of it.

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The right conclusion for the wrong reason in my book. :gj:


dr del