Question about hiding spots.....

I would like to get two hiding spots for my BP and I am alittle confused as to which ones are adequate for a small BP. I currently have one hide over my underbody heater that my snake likes to lie in the majority of the time. I have been told it is good to hhve a hide near the basking spot however I don't want to shut the snake off too much from the basking heat source. I am already in the works to get a rock or something for the snake however I am wondering if instead of getting a cave like hide for the basking area, would a branch/leaf type structure suffice? Would this provide ample hiding area as well as anice comfortable place to bask, or should you provide a basking rock/branch as well as a seperate hide?

The under body heater (UTH I assume?) should be the only heat you need. Ball pythons don't "bask". If your UTH is getting to the correct temps, then you just need a hide on the cool side of the tank.

Um, the snake is going to be best off with 2 cave-like hides. Any extra foliage, branches or rocks are just for added security. If it is not a cave hide, it will generally be too open to help the snake feel secure. If the only secure hide is over the heat, you don't want the snake trying to decide between temperature and security.

Thanks a lot for the help so far.

I was under the impression that I needed not only an UTH to maintain the 80-85 degree temperature, but also a heat lamp to provide a basking area. One example, quoted from a book I have states "An under the tank heating pad designed for reptiles works well for providing the cage heat, with an incandescent bulb or ceramic heating element used to provide the basking temperatures."

Am I misunderstanding something here?

How old is that book? Are you sure it's for ball pythons?

The UTH should be fine as long as you have a thermostat and make sure the temps are anywhere from 89-92.

And cave-like hides are the way to go, on both warm and cold side...if you don't have another, a small box (KD box for a small bp) should be fine.

So do I only need heat generated on one side of the cage while the opposite side had no individual heat source? What is meant by a "85 deg. temperature with a 90 deg. basking spot"? Are these supposed to be on the same side?

It means that the ambient air should be 85, and the temperature of the substrate (not the air above it) should be 90. If you can get the right temperatures without a lamp, then don't buy one. If your temperatures are NOT right (i.e. too low) then buy one. Also...if you just have a hide over the UTH, be careful your snake doesn't burrow and burn itself.

As long as the hide is tight and secure, your snake will be fine. You should put one on/near the heat source and one on the cool side; as Mr. S said, and anything extra that provides cover will only be beneficial.

You can use a plastic bowl with an entrance cut out in the meantime. They are like 3 for a buck at most stores.

Yes, only one side needs to be heated. What they mean by the two temps is hot spot and ambient temperature. If the hot spot is at the right temperature, and the tank isn't too big, then the cool side should be around 78-84 on it's own without any heat source. That way the ball python can choose if it wants to be warmer or cooler.:)

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Originally Posted by A.VinczeBPs

How old is that book? Are you sure it's for ball pythons?

The UTH should be fine as long as you have a thermostat and make sure the temps are anywhere from 89-92.

And cave-like hides are the way to go, on both warm and cold side...if you don't have another, a small box (KD box for a small bp) should be fine.

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Well ont only is that stated in a book written in 2005 but it's also on pretty much every single website I check. They all mention you needing a basking spot of 90 deg. and a regular temp of 85 or so deg.

Even on the Caresheet for BP's on this website it says:

~80F (ambient temps)
~90F (basking temps)

Ball pythons do very well when heated from below (UTH = under tank heat). This can be achieved with heat mats made specifically for this purpose and found in most pet stores. Also available through online retailers is a product called Flexwatt, which is a thin sheet of heating elements that comes in a wide variety of customizable sizes.

And finally, overhead heat in the form of light bulbs or Ceramic Heat Emitters (CHE). A CHE screws into a socket like a bulb, but provides only heat without any light. These can be used as a supplement to a UTH to help maintain warm enough ambient temps.

I think I am misunderstanding what "basking temp" means.

So basking temperature is just the temp. of the substrate, while the ambient is the overall air around? A UTH can usually control all of this?

Based on that logic a UTH can usually control the temps. however the lamps are just used as a supplement. So if the UTH doesn't generate all the propwer heat than the lamp can help with the rest?

They mean basking in a different manner.

Also, they say the bulb is a replacement for an UTH not use both.

I'm just giving common advice, it's up to you to choose what you listen to.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

Well ont only is that stated in a book written in 2005 but it's also on pretty much every single website I check. They all mention you needing a basking spot of 90 deg. and a regular temp of 85 or so deg.

Even on the Caresheet for BP's on this website it says:

~80F (ambient temps)
~90F (basking temps)

Ball pythons do very well when heated from below (UTH = under tank heat). This can be achieved with heat mats made specifically for this purpose and found in most pet stores. Also available through online retailers is a product called Flexwatt, which is a thin sheet of heating elements that comes in a wide variety of customizable sizes.

And finally, overhead heat in the form of light bulbs or Ceramic Heat Emitters (CHE). A CHE screws into a socket like a bulb, but provides only heat without any light. These can be used as a supplement to a UTH to help maintain warm enough ambient temps.

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Yup, this is exactly what we are telling you. 80 cool side, 90 hot side, (or "basking" spot). They do not need a light, UNLESS, you can't keep the right temperatures. In fact, the reason why a heat lamp is only mentioned as supplementary heat is because they tend to dry everything up really bad, and you also need humidity at 50%.
Now that we have all read it a thousand times, let move on to any other questions that you might have!

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

I think I am misunderstanding what "basking temp" means.

So basking temperature is just the temp. of the substrate, while the ambient is the overall air around? A UTH can usually control all of this?

Based on that logic a UTH can usually control the temps. however the lamps are just used as a supplement. So if the UTH doesn't generate all the propwer heat than the lamp can help with the rest?

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Bingo. But only use the lamp if your ambient temps won't stay at a good level, otherwise not needed.:D

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Originally Posted by mr. s

Yup, this is exactly what we are telling you. 80 cool side, 90 hot side, (or "basking" spot). They do not need a light, UNLESS, you can't keep the right temperatures. In fact, the reason why a heat lamp is only mentioned as supplementary heat is because they tend to dry everything up really bad, and you also need humidity at 50%.
Now that we have all read it a thousand times, let move on to any other questions that you might have!

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So all I really need then as a hea tsource is a UTH? If I need an additional heat source, such as a lamp, this should still go on the same side as the UTH?

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

So all I really need then as a hea tsource is a UTH? If I need an additional heat source, such as a lamp, this should still go on the same side as the UTH?

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If you need additional heat on the cold side, put the lamp over that side, not the side with the UTH. Again though, you probably won't need the extra heat.
On a side note, if you do still use the lamp, make sure your humidity is alright since those lamps tend to dry out the air too much.

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Originally Posted by mr. s

Yup, this is exactly what we are telling you. 80 cool side, 90 hot side, (or "basking" spot). They do not need a light, UNLESS, you can't keep the right temperatures. In fact, the reason why a heat lamp is only mentioned as supplementary heat is because they tend to dry everything up really bad, and you also need humidity at 50%.
Now that we have all read it a thousand times, let move on to any other questions that you might have!

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Would you reccommend the lamp on the sam eside as the UTH?

Okay, I think you are over thinking this a little bit so I will do my best to break it down for you.

The "basking" temp you keep seeing is just the hot side temp. This can be maintained using only a UTH. Keep in mind a UTH should always have something controlling it. You could use a temporary rheostat (light dimmer) but it is preferable to have a reptile thermostat. If you don't have one of these, your snake will burrow down into its substrate and burn itself on the glass. They don't have the same heat receptors as we do so they can't tell if they are getting too hot.

If your normal house temperature is lower then 75*, you can either get another UTH controlled by a dimmer inline with the thermostat on the cool side, or you can get a low wattage lamp for the cool side. The catch with the lamp is that it will lower your humidity considerably. UTHs impact humidity very little, but lamps will reduce it quite a bit.

Lastly, make sure you are measuring your hot spot temp with a digital thermometer with a probe and digital thermometers and hygrometers to measure ambient temp and humidity. I find many people will have 3 heat sources and are still struggling with heat, when really the problem is their stick on round thermometers. Those are not accurate and you will probably end up cooking your animal if you rely on those for temperature measurements.

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

Would you reccommend the lamp on the sam eside as the UTH?

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Just gotta play it by ear. We have all struggled with that balancing act. Just recently I realized that I have a walk in closet that maintains an ambient temperature of 80 in the day if I keep a light on, so I moved almost all my snakes in there onto shelves and it is working great. Everyone has different problems.
Set the uth up, with a dimmer, check warm and cool side temperatures and see if it needs something more. Usually, the lamp is for ambient temperatures (air temperature), so it can go on the cool side or the middle even, as long as the hot spot does not get much over 92 or so. As many people have mentioned, burning is a real problem.
It is a lot to take in and seems so complicated at first, but we have all been through it at some point with our first snake.
Good luck, and keep the questions coming!

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Originally Posted by mr. s

Just gotta play it by ear. We have all struggled with that balancing act. Just recently I realized that I have a walk in closet that maintains an ambient temperature of 80 in the day if I keep a light on, so I moved almost all my snakes in there onto shelves and it is working great. Everyone has different problems.
Set the uth up, with a dimmer, check warm and cool side temperatures and see if it needs something more. Usually, the lamp is for ambient temperatures (air temperature), so it can go on the cool side or the middle even, as long as the hot spot does not get much over 92 or so. As many people have mentioned, burning is a real problem.
It is a lot to take in and seems so complicated at first, but we have all been through it at some point with our first snake.
Good luck, and keep the questions coming!

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When you refer to the "hot spot," is this the basking/substrate area that needs to be around 90 degrees? The ambient air can be a bit lower, correct?

Also, he's been laying on the basking side for awhile now because I was obviously completely confused about what basking means and he has not gotten burned. I don't have a thermostat so I assume that the temperature is right not to burn him and he hasn't burrowed either.

Yes, hot spot or basking spot are the same. 90 hot, 80 cool. Just remember that.
Burning takes time. If you do not have something to read the temperature and dim it, I suggest you get something as soon as possible, like tomorrow. UTHs can get up to 120 degrees pretty easy. It is also very difficult for us to guess temperature based on touch.
I hope it all turns out ok.

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

I don't have a thermostat so I assume that the temperature is right not to burn him and he hasn't burrowed either.

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Many people have made the mistake of "assuming" that an unregulated UTH won't burn their snake because it hasn't so far. All the snake has to do is coil up and that is enough to push the substrate away so he is sitting right on the glass. It is better to take precautionary measures to prevent burns rather then dealing with the vet bills that come with the burns.

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Originally Posted by mr. s

Yes, hot spot or basking spot are the same. 90 hot, 80 cool. Just remember that.
Burning takes time. If you do not have something to read the temperature and dim it, I suggest you get something as soon as possible, like tomorrow. UTHs can get up to 120 degrees pretty easy. It is also very difficult for us to guess temperature based on touch.
I hope it all turns out ok.

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90 Hot meaning the substrate only in the basking spot and 80 or so ambient?

As Kaorte mentioned, right on the glass it can't get above maybe 93 ish. In my tank I clear the substrate a little from the uth so that the snake is pretty much right on the glass anyway, then I just keep it at 90.

Ok, I have the basking spot 90-95, the ambient temp is 78-85 or so on both sides. Why does the snake continue to go to the hide on the basking side? I just made a little hide in the "cool side" and she rearely uses that.

Yes that is basically correct. Personally (every set up is different) I have a vision enclosure that is larger (24x24x12) than some ppl use. The ambient temp of the location is 79º. This is the total ambient temp in the room and in the enclosure. Directly over the location of the UTH (it is on the outside NOT inside ;-) I have a hide. The temp of the substrate in the hide is about 90-91º the air temp inside the hide drops into 88-86º. The air over the hot hide is a bit lower again 85-2 and as I more the thermometer to from hot to cold about inch off the substrate I get 87º over the UTH 85º, 83º and at the glass from the coldest point I get 79-80. You need a thermal gradient. These numbers demonstrate a good gradient.
Hope this helps.
Alex

Mine actually uses the cold hide more but they are individuals as long as you have enough hides (one for each end of the gradient at least) they will move about as they wish and need to regulate their internal temperature.

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

Ok, I have the basking spot 90-95, the ambient temp is 78-85 or so on both sides. Why does the snake continue to go to the hide on the basking side? I just made a little hide in the "cool side" and she rearely uses that.

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Don't worry about where the snake spends the most time. It will do what it wants. If it wants to be cooler, it will move to the cool side.

Yup, don't worry about it. I have bps that like to stick to the hot spot too. The important thing is that they have the option.

unless there in with another snake for breeding most of my snakes stay in there hides on the warm side and come out just as it begins to get dark. they cruise the cage drink and before you know it there back in the hide spot on the hot side. they do that a few times a night then stay in there hide for most of the day. i wouldnt worry to much as long as everything is set up correctly

So what side does the cool side need to be?

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

So what temperature does the cool side need to be?

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80 is recommended.

Lower than 75 is not healthy.

Even at night time the temp can not drop below 75?

No is not recommended. Your snake could get Respiratory Infection (RI) or go Off-feed.

You can try putting a towel over the top to keep heat in. Also, if you use a red light or a ceramic heater, you can keep it on all night. Yup, it seems like the heating war never ends.

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Originally Posted by EvesFriend

Even at night time the temp can not drop below 75?

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You should not have any temp drops at night.