random aggression

My male BP named Noose is roughly 8 months old. I've had him for about a month and a half. We keep him in a 20 gal long aquarium and use a small UTH, 100 watt basking lamp and a 60 watt ceramic heater. The temp on the hot side stays 90-95 and the cool side is in the high 70's. I have to mist frequently and leave wet sponges in the tank to keep the humidity between 50-70%. He has 2 different hide spots to use (which he never gets in). He usually just hides in some of the fake plants in his tank instead of using his half log or hollowed out tree made for reptiles:confused:

Since we have had him he has been very lethargic which I have been told is normal. He comes out when I put his night light on, but not very much. He has been eating regularly and has shed successfully since we have had him. In light of all of that we have started to handle him some lately. He has never showed any sign of aggression.

Now that I have explained his habitat, let me tell you the problem...

Last time we fed him he acted different than I've ever seen him. I always feed him at night because that's when he's awake. He eats frozen thawed. I feed him in his tank. I know I need a separate feeding tank but I haven't gotten around to it. I thawed the mouse and brought it in the room and it was like he knew I had the mouse right when I walked into the room. He was all coiled in strike position following my every movement. I waived my hand in front of the tank and he struck at it. I dropped the mouse in pretty quickly because he was trying to jump out of the cage as I opened it. After I dropped it in he moved all around the tank, almost as if he was making sure it was safe. After about 30 minutes of odd behavior he snagged the mouse and ate it. I understand that aggressive behavior during feeding isn't very unusual and this isn't what has me concerned.

The following day (today) he slept most of the day. Later in the evening I noticed he had his head poked out of his hiding bushes (which is unusual being that he always hides all day). I walked over to look at him and noticed he was in the same aggressive coil position as the night before, head following my every movement. He never struck at me through the glass like he did the night before, but it doesn't take an expert to know if I would have stuck my hand in there he would have bit me. Every time I even started to approach the tank he would coil tighter poising for a strike, he was pissed off! He is still like that right now at 3:00 AM

This worried me because he displayed this aggressive behavior when there was no food around and he had just ate so I know he isn't hungry. Nothing in his environment has changed. I just don't know what could cause such a dramatic change in his behavior. I just want to know if there is any common explanation for this behavior or if anyone with more experience can shed any light. I will be glad to answer any further questions about his environment, the aggression or my care for him.

Thanks,
Richard Wayne

Lmao never seen a post like this before. I bet for every 30 posts on a bp being a picky eater there is one on one being an overly aggresive feeder. Maybe next time you feed try a slighty larger prey animal. Go for a f/t small rat. Then he will probably go back to his lathargic working up a poop ways.
I would be ecstatic if I were you lol. And feeding outside of the cage is not a must... It's only really for handlers who Dont want a feeding response when they open up there cage to take them out. IMO I love a feeding response when I open up my bps enclosures. A lot quicker to feed :-).
Be happy! You have an established eater :-).

Oh, and I forgot to mention. He hasn't pooped since we've had him. That's about a month/ 4 feedings. Is he constipated? Could this be part of the problem?

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

Lmao never seen a post like this before. I bet for every 30 posts on a bp being a picky eater there is one on one being an overly aggresive feeder. Maybe next time you feed try a slighty larger prey animal. Go for a f/t small rat. Then he will probably go back to his lathargic working up a poop ways.
I would be ecstatic if I were you lol. And feeding outside of the cage is not a must... It's only really for handlers who Dont want a feeding response when they open up there cage to take them out. IMO I love a feeding response when I open up my bps enclosures. A lot quicker to feed :-).
Be happy! You have an established eater :-).

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That doesn't make alot of sense really, all of mine are fed inside their own bins, and I've never known a single one to have enclosure aggression as far as bp's.

How big was the prey? At 8 months old if you are going to keep him on mice he may be ready to start eating 2 mice. Based on what you said he may have just still been hungry.

Just to make sure, he isn't showing any signs of shedding is he?


For the fact that he hasn't pooped in the last month its not really a big deal, and if you are really concerned about it you can soak him in warm-ish water, that will usually get him to go. However I have some BPs that go without pooping for a month, its not too unusual. Mine usually go right after shedding.

Don't think of ball pythons as aggressive, they really aren't. They are either hungry or scared.

Well, its sounds to me like you have some husbandry to fix first of all. I would start by getting him some new snug fitting hides. I use plastic bowls from the dollar store with a small entrance cut out of the side.

Next, temperatures and humidity. Unless you have this snake outside in Alaska, you shouldn't need three strong heating elements. Your temps lead me to believe that you are not correctly measuring and monitoring your temps. Are you using those round stick on gauges? You should try using digital thermometers with probes and a digital hygrometer. You will get much more accurate readings. The accurite weather station from the home depot, lowes, or walmart (about $12) will measure everything you need to in his enclosure. Hot spot temp, ambient temp, and ambient humidity. Make sure you get the one with the wired probe.

As for your heat sources, you should really only need the UTH unless your house gets below 75*, then you may need a low wattage CHE or red light. Remember that any over head heat will remove humidity from the air. If you just use a UTH, humidity shouldn't ever be an issue.

There is absolutely no reason to feed outside the enclosure. It will not prevent "aggression". It will only make the snake less likely to eat in a strange new environment. Feeding in the enclosure is acceptable. I feed all 6 of my snakes in their enclosures and I have never had a problem with this "aggression".

The next thing to address is how much you are feeding him. I have a feeling that you aren't feeding him quite enough. An 8 month old snake should be eating either two full grown mice or an equally sized rat. None of this hoppers, fuzzies and pinky business. Those are like popcorn for a heavy bodied snake like a ball python.

Also, you should refrain from interacting with your snake on feeding day, and two days after to allow for digestion. It is not unheard of for a snake to still be in "feeding mode" the day after feeding, even if they were given an appropriately sized meal.

Don't worry about the no-poop business. Ball pythons can go a long time with no poops. As long as the area around his vent doesn't feel hard, he will be fine. I have had snakes hold their poo for as long as 6 weeks. Just get ready for when that poo does grace you with its aromatic presence.

I hope this helps shed some light on the situation. Don't be concerned about his behavior, it is most likely something that you can change with a few husbandry adjustments. :)

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Originally Posted by Agent73

How big was the prey? At 8 months old if you are going to keep him on mice he may be ready to start eating 2 mice. Based on what you said he may have just still been hungry.

Just to make sure, he isn't showing any signs of shedding is he?

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no, he just got done shedding. He got everything off in one piece and did a great job.

Him still being hungry would kinda make sense. Im not 100% sure he's quite 8 months. How big should he be?

Without measureing and just eyeballing it, I'd say noose is almost 2 ft long, and a little over an inch in diameter in his thickest spot. I have no clue on his weight. What's a good way to know if he needs larger prey?

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

no, he just got done shedding. He got everything off in one piece and did a great job.

Him still being hungry would kinda make sense. Im not 100% sure he's quite 8 months. How big should he be?

Without measureing and using my eyeball, I'd say noose is almost 2 ft long and a little over an inch in diameter in his thickest spot. I have no clue on his weight. What's a good way to know if he needs larger prey?

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...Do you have a picture of this snake. An inch round, 2 feet, and 8 months old sounds like a seriously underweight snake.

hmmm all these posts with people saying all you need id an UTH... We have a large UTH, large basking light (hot side) and red light (cool side set to turn on if temp falls below 80) This keeps the temps where they need to be, although the lamps do dry the air:( our house has a daytime temp of 73 and at night I let it drop to 66 but really I can't see going with just an UTH...

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Originally Posted by proballo

hmmm all these posts with people saying all you need id an UTH... We have a large UTH, large basking light (hot side) and red light (cool side set to turn on if temp falls below 80) This keeps the temps where they need to be, although the lamps do dry the air:( our house has a daytime temp of 73 and at night I let it drop to 66 but really I can't see going with just an UTH...

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What kind of thermometers are you using?

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

What kind of thermometers are you using?

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2 digital one on each side and a temp gun to check the surface temps. Hot side 85-90 cool stays 75-80


our enclosure is very big though... 18" x 39" x 18" with lots of clutter

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Originally Posted by proballo

2 digital one on each side and a temp gun to check the surface temps. Hot side 85-90 cool stays 75-80

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You should need a light and a UTH on the same side. The UTH will provide the hot spot, and the lamp should increase the ambient air temperature to around 80*. Just try one lamp on the cool side and just the UTH.

Stick one of your probed thermometers right on the glass where the UTH is.

that would be the way it is at night as the basking light is only on during the 14hr day cycle however the temp on the "hot side"* get to only 75 with just the UTH. The probe is on the glass with the UTH. The red light stays on all the time whenevver the temp gets below 80ish (it tends to read 77 at night)

*At night our "hot" side becomes our "cool side"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Don't think of ball pythons as aggressive, they really aren't. They are either hungry or scared.

Well, its sounds to me like you have some husbandry to fix first of all. I would start by getting him some new snug fitting hides. I use plastic bowls from the dollar store with a small entrance cut out of the side.

Next, temperatures and humidity. Unless you have this snake outside in Alaska, you shouldn't need three strong heating elements. Your temps lead me to believe that you are not correctly measuring and monitoring your temps. Are you using those round stick on gauges? You should try using digital thermometers with probes and a digital hygrometer. You will get much more accurate readings. The accurite weather station from the home depot, lowes, or walmart (about $12) will measure everything you need to in his enclosure. Hot spot temp, ambient temp, and ambient humidity. Make sure you get the one with the wired probe.

As for your heat sources, you should really only need the UTH unless your house gets below 75*, then you may need a low wattage CHE or red light. Remember that any over head heat will remove humidity from the air. If you just use a UTH, humidity shouldn't ever be an issue.

There is absolutely no reason to feed outside the enclosure. It will not prevent "aggression". It will only make the snake less likely to eat in a strange new environment. Feeding in the enclosure is acceptable. I feed all 6 of my snakes in their enclosures and I have never had a problem with this "aggression".

The next thing to address is how much you are feeding him. I have a feeling that you aren't feeding him quite enough. An 8 month old snake should be eating either two full grown mice or an equally sized rat. None of this hoppers, fuzzies and pinky business. Those are like popcorn for a heavy bodied snake like a ball python.

Also, you should refrain from interacting with your snake on feeding day, and two days after to allow for digestion. It is not unheard of for a snake to still be in "feeding mode" the day after feeding, even if they were given an appropriately sized meal.

Don't worry about the no-poop business. Ball pythons can go a long time with no poops. As long as the area around his vent doesn't feel hard, he will be fine. I have had snakes hold their poo for as long as 6 weeks. Just get ready for when that poo does grace you with its aromatic presence.

I hope this helps shed some light on the situation. Don't be concerned about his behavior, it is most likely something that you can change with a few husbandry adjustments. :)

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first off, thank you for all the advise.

His hiding spots seemed to be pretty snug. He used to have this hollowed out skull that was ment to go in aquariums thy we just put in for decoration and he LOVED hiding in there. We took it out because we were actually scared he would get stuck in there, and we couldn't get him out of it if we wanted to. We had to wait for him to come out.

I am using the stick on round thermostat/ hygrometer. I'll definately get a wired one from home deep. I had a feeling 3 heat sources was a bit extreme. It's wierd though, the UTH never seemed to give off any ambient heat. All it seemed to do was make the ground warm. It seemed to be alot harder to heat the tank than I read in books and on the net.

I just bumped up to feeding him an Arctic Mice brand "small mouse" (the one that is a step up from fuzzies) every 5 days instead of once a week. It does make the most sense that he is hungry. Is there a good rule of thumb on snake to prey size proportion or something? Or should I just give him bigger prey and see if he'll eat it? Would he try to eat something too big for him to handle? I do refrain from handling him on or after feeding day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by proballo

that would be the way it is at night as the basking light is only on during the 14hr day cycle however the temp on the "hot side"* get to only 75 with just the UTH. The probe is on the glass with the UTH. The red light stays on all the time whenevver the temp gets below 80ish (it tends to read 77 at night)

*At night our "hot" side becomes our "cool side"

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wait, so your probe on the glass where the UTH is reads 75*? Something is wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

first off, thank you for all the advise.

His hiding spots seemed to be pretty snug. He used to have this hollowed out skull that was ment to go in aquariums thy we just put in for decoration and he LOVED hiding in there. We took it out because we were actually scared he would get stuck in there, and we couldn't get him out of it if we wanted to. We had to wait for him to come out.

I am using the stick on round thermostat/ hygrometer. I'll definately get a wired one from home deep. I had a feeling 3 heat sources was a bit extreme. It's wierd though, the UTH never seemed to give off any ambient heat. All it seemed to do was make the ground warm. It seemed to be alot harder to heat the tank than I read in books and on the net.

I just bumped up to feeding him an Arctic Mice brand "small mouse" (the one that is a step up from fuzzies) every 5 days instead of once a week. It does make the most sense that he is hungry. Is there a good rule of thumb on snake to prey size proportion or something? Or should I just give him bigger prey and see if he'll eat it? Would he try to eat something too big for him to handle? I do refrain from handling him on or after feeding day.

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So what kind of hides do you have now? Picture perhaps?

The UTH does only heat surface temperature. The lamps are used to increase ambient temperatures. As long as your ambient temps are above 75* and you have a hot spot (surface) temp around 92*, your snake will be fine.

If you can, purchase a gram kitchen scale you can weigh your snake and track its growth. You can also use it to determine how much you need to feed him. I feed 10-15% of the snakes body weight until they are 1500g.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

wait, so your probe on the glass where the UTH is reads 75*? Something is wrong with that.

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at night it does, during the day it's 85-90 (due to the lamp) There is a good 1&1/2" of substrate which is probably why it's so low. i check the surface temps all the time with the temp gun and the tank was set up and stable for a good month before we got the snake.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

...Do you have a picture of this snake. An inch round, 2 feet, and 8 months old sounds like a seriously underweight snake.

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I don't have a pic atm, I've herd that if you can see their spine clearly than the're underweight, and I can't see his. I don't think he's underweight. He seems pretty well proportioned. Like I said, those aren't exact measurements, and I'm not sure he's 8 months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by proballo

at night it does, during the day it's 85-90 (due to the lamp) There is a good 1&1/2" of substrate which is probably why it's so low. i check the surface temps all the time with the temp gun and the tank was set up and stable for a good month before we got the snake.

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Yeah that is way to much. A UTH should heat up to 120* unregulated (it should be connected to a reptile thermostat to prevent it from over heating).

Try reducing the substrate to about 1/2" or less.

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

I don't have a pic atm, I've herd that if you can see their spine clearly than the're underweight, and I can't see his. I don't think he's underweight. He seems pretty well proportioned. Like I said, those aren't exact measurements, and I'm not sure he's 8 months.

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I would get that gram scale and weigh him. 8 months, 2 feet, and one inch thick doesn't make too much sense unless he is underweight.

You can tell if they are under weight if they have a pronounced spine and a triangular shape. A healthy ball python will have a completely round midsection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

first off, thank you for all the advise.

His hiding spots seemed to be pretty snug. He used to have this hollowed out skull that was ment to go in aquariums thy we just put in for decoration and he LOVED hiding in there. We took it out because we were actually scared he would get stuck in there, and we couldn't get him out of it if we wanted to. We had to wait for him to come out.

I am using the stick on round thermostat/ hygrometer. I'll definately get a wired one from home deep. I had a feeling 3 heat sources was a bit extreme. It's wierd though, the UTH never seemed to give off any ambient heat. All it seemed to do was make the ground warm. It seemed to be alot harder to heat the tank than I read in books and on the net.

I just bumped up to feeding him an Arctic Mice brand "small mouse" (the one that is a step up from fuzzies) every 5 days instead of once a week. It does make the most sense that he is hungry. Is there a good rule of thumb on snake to prey size proportion or something? Or should I just give him bigger prey and see if he'll eat it? Would he try to eat something too big for him to handle? I do refrain from handling him on or after feeding day.

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i read some of the posts.. but didn't see this anywhere.. what kind of top/lid do you have on you tanks???

i had the same prob with keeping the heat and humidity up.. but after talking to a lot of people on here and trying diff things.. i finally found something that works... well for me..

i should note i have screen tops on my tanks.. what i did was 1st i stopped using heat lamps.. due to the fact that they leave too much of the screen top open so the humidity just goes right out the top.. then i took some cardboard almost the same size of the screen... i tapped tinfoil to the bottom of it and put that on the screen.. that helped a lot... but then i put news paper on top of the cardboard and for some reason that helped even more.. and all i use for a heat source is one UTH under each tank.. that gets my humidity up to 60-70% and heat is around 76 at night and 80-85 during the day...

also if you plan on getting more snakes i would say get a rack.. it is a lot more simple to keep the temp and humidity up in those.. and as soon as i have the money i will be upgrading to a rack...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

His hiding spots seemed to be pretty snug. He used to have this hollowed out skull that was ment to go in aquariums thy we just put in for decoration and he LOVED hiding in there. We took it out because we were actually scared he would get stuck in there, and we couldn't get him out of it if we wanted to. We had to wait for him to come out.

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I use Tupperware bowls for mine, and just cut a small hole in one side. If he's not using them then they aren't snug enough. A half log provides insecurity, because it is opened on both ends, and the openings are huge. Ball pythons don't like to be bothered while they are sleeping and mine go into their hides and plug the doorways with their butts to prevent me from peeking on them. Lol.

Hi,

You've gotten a lot of good advice so I will stick to a few thoughts I had when reading your initial post;

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

I feed him in his tank. I know I need a separate feeding tank but I haven't gotten around to it.

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I would stick to feeding in his tank. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

I waived my hand in front of the tank and he struck at it.

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Don't wave your hand in front of his tank. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

I dropped the mouse in pretty quickly because he was trying to jump out of the cage as I opened it. After I dropped it in he moved all around the tank, almost as if he was making sure it was safe. After about 30 minutes of odd behavior he snagged the mouse and ate it. I understand that aggressive behavior during feeding isn't very unusual and this isn't what has me concerned.

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I would suggest using tongs - I use 18" ones and can pick the mouse back up without having to dodge overly much. :)

Plus it gives me something to fend off my more enthusiastic feeders with if they miss. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Big Wayne

The following day (today) he slept most of the day. Later in the evening I noticed he had his head poked out of his hiding bushes (which is unusual being that he always hides all day). I walked over to look at him and noticed he was in the same aggressive coil position as the night before, head following my every movement. He never struck at me through the glass like he did the night before, but it doesn't take an expert to know if I would have stuck my hand in there he would have bit me. Every time I even started to approach the tank he would coil tighter poising for a strike, he was pissed off! He is still like that right now at 3:00 AM

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I think he is telling you he needs more food next time - I would try two mice. Wait until he has finished the first one and got his jaws realigned then offer the second one.


dr del

Thanks everyone for your good advice. He has been back to normal today. I guess his behavior just kinda freaked me out cause I'd never seen him like that before. I do believe he is still hungry. I'm going to bump him up to full size mice and see if that does the trick. I now also realize I have a fer husbandry issues to address. I'll keep everyone posted on Noose's progress. You seem like a good bunch of peeps. Thanks again.

at 2 feet he will need to eat the large size arctic mice, it says large right on the box, I know the ones your talking about, blue box with a white mouse picture on it, "Arctic Mice" just make sure you get the large ones. He will eat those no sweat at that size, a good rule of thumb is to feed a mouse or rat that is the same or even a little bigger than the diameter of your snakes widest section. at that size though I recommend the large arctic mice for sure. They can open their mouth to 3 times the size of their skull, so they can swallow stuff you wouldnt believe, when I first got a ball python I looked at their scrawny neck and said no way he can eat a large mouse! than i fed him one... it was like stretching a tube sock over a watermelon, they are extremely stretchy animals, just use the widest part of the body rule for food and you will be fine!

Also I would probably have just stuck my hand in the cage and grabbed him, even if hes giving you the stink eye. Just make sure you dont smell like mouse or rat on yer hands... I have noticed the trick with snakes that look a little agitated is to not approach them from directly above or in front of their faces, just come up gently and confidently from behind and touch them and move them a little, as soon as they know its a person and not a prey item they usually calm down, the touching is a sign to the snake that you are not dinner, also a snake is almost always calmer and less defensive once they leave the cage and are in your hands, some snakes just dont like being cornered in the cage and approached. Now I cannot guarantee this will always be the case, but this is something I have experienced over time handling a number of snakes, I might be more cautious with larger species of snakes as a ball python bite is nothing compared to a red tail or burmese bite... Also remember that if you are bit, its not really that bad from a ball python, just remain calm dont jerk your hand around , you dont want to hurt your snake!