Snake Inbreeding?

I have read a few things on this subject, but have yet to get a solid "Yes" or "No" answer. What do you think BP.net? Can inbreeding snakes cause adverse issues like "wobbling"? Have you ever personally produced a snake from inbreeding to prove genetics and come out with a snake that was obviously a little slower(mentally) than the rest?

I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all. But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes. He does just fine though, barely ever refuses a meal and when he does it's usually because he's in breeder mode. He's very docile, easy to handle, just really makes some weird movements when he's roaming around. Keep in mind, these movements aren't abrupt or anything like that, they are slow and calculated, just not sure about it.

Anyway, thought I might try to spark a conversation I've been curious about for years.

You're never going to be able to stop inbreeding, because greed is a very strong influence, but I will never do it. Just look at the one-eyed albino boas out there. Disgusting.

Chris

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I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all

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. That's contradicting don't you think ;)

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But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes.

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This is what is referred to as wobble or spinning, they all do to a certain degree, some are train wrecks and it some it is hardly noticeable to the point where if you do not know what wobble is you will probably say that your Spider does not wobble.

And no inbreeding does not cause this, Spiders are one of the most outbred morph.

Some people (the inbreeding detractors) often forget that it it wasn't for inbreeding/line breeding those great morph they have in their collection would have never been proved out. (kind of hypocritical :rolleyes:)

Cold blooded creatures are very different from mammals.

Should you bring new blood in any time you have the opportunity absolutely however line breeding is not the great evil some make it sound to be either.

More about inbreeding and Wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...pider+spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

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Originally Posted by sirhiss06

I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all. But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes. He does just fine though, barely ever refuses a meal and when he does it's usually because he's in breeder mode. He's very docile, easy to handle, just really makes some weird movements when he's roaming around. Keep in mind, these movements aren't abrupt or anything like that, they are slow and calculated, just not sure about it.

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As Deborah already stated - you've just described the spider wobble/spin. Weird movements, looking like they can't figure out up or down. That's classic spider wobble behavior. :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

. That's contradicting don't you think ;)

This is what is referred to as wobble or spinning, they all do to a certain degree, some are train wrecks and it some it is hardly noticeable to the point where if you do not know what wobble is you will probably say that your Spider does not wobble.

And no inbreeding does not cause this, Spiders are one of the most outbred morph.

Some people (the inbreeding detractors) often forget that it it wasn't for inbreeding/line breeding those great morph they have in their collection would have never been proved out. (kind of hypocritical :rolleyes:)

Cold blooded creatures are very different from mammals.

Should you bring new blood in any time you have the opportunity absolutely however line breeding is not the great evil some make it sound to be either.

More about inbreeding and Wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...pider+spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

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I am not totally against line-breeding. I don't find it disgusting. I do not think of it as an evil. I understand that it is or was necessary to produce a lot of morphs in Herpetoculture. It is also true for many animals. Cold blooded animals are no different than warm blooded ones. Genes work exactly the same in both. It should be done only limited. It should not be common practice nor should it be suggested to others to do as common practice. If you cant afford to do it right, either time wise or money wise, then you should not be breeding. Breeders should be responsible and always out source the blood lines when possible.

I think you should look at real information about genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology from other more reliable sources (such as geneticists) other than from what you will find on this site(or any other breeder related sites) that is posted from other breeders. Research reptile inbreeding or line breeding.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought a "wobble" was exactly that. I thought it was wobbling of the head of the snake. So noticeable that you would in fact say the snake had a "wobble". I would describe my snakes movements as more of a "spin". I didn't know that the both were considered the same thing.

Does this subside by introducing new bloodlines? Or is it just a typical trait that 99% of spiders have, just to a level of severity?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I am not totally against line-breeding. I don't find it disgusting. I do not think of it as an evil. I understand that it is or was necessary to produce a lot of morphs in Herpetoculture. It is also true for many animals. Cold blooded animals are no different than warm blooded ones. Genes work exactly the same in both. It should be done only limited. It should not be common practice nor should it be suggested to others to do as common practice. If you cant afford to do it right, either time wise or money wise, then you should not be breeding. Breeders should be responsible and always out source the blood lines when possible.

I think you should look at real information about genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology from other more reliable sources (such as geneticists) other than from what you will find on this site(or any other breeder related sites) that is posted from other breeders. Research reptile inbreeding or line breeding.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

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I'm with you. Line breeding is the only way to prove a line, so I'm definitely not against it.

I will have to do more in depth research I suppose. I wouldn't really know where to start looking, but the internet is full of information, so I'm sure I can find something, somewhere. Thanks for the insight.

I think inbreeding can potentially be a big problem in recessive morphs, but not so much with dominant genes like the spider. People outcross spiders to normals all the time, and the resulting spider babies still wobble.

You could probably make it worse by breeding spiders to spiders. But even without inbreeding the wobble seems somehow tied to the gene, and is therefore simply a built-in feature of the morph.

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...nbreeding.html

My feelings on the subject

this is from Ralph Davis.

I have noticed many problems with the "Supers" from the year that they were first produced until now ( 05 ).........all that have been produced and that I have seen have face deformities....either elongated snouts.........thin cheeks and heads........a "turned up" snout.........kinks or twists..........I think to solve the problem with the Supers.........breeders need to NOT line breed to make the Supers...........bloodlines need to be mixed..


This is from Adam Wysocki - 8 Ball Pythons

The real “spin” on spiders.
Tuesday, February 13th, 2007
When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me!

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Originally Posted by sirhiss06

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought a "wobble" was exactly that. I thought it was wobbling of the head of the snake. So noticeable that you would in fact say the snake had a "wobble". I would describe my snakes movements as more of a "spin". I didn't know that the both were considered the same thing.

Does this subside by introducing new bloodlines? Or is it just a typical trait that 99% of spiders have, just to a level of severity?

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100% of spiders have it. Has nothing to do with line breeding or in breeding - it's one of the most outcrossed morphs, since there is no super and breeders just aren't breeding spider to spider.

Inbreeding:
Different species are affected to different degrees when inbred. It has a lot to do with how much genetic variation there is within the species--how 'delicate' their genes are when impacted by mutagens. The species with more delicate genes will be carrying more silent mutations--more recessive traits that aren't visible. Most mutations are lethal or harmful--that's across the board, in all species.
Species with more resilient genes will be carrying fewer mutations. These species will rarely show issues when inbred. Some species can withstand inbreeding for many generations before some mutation crops up and is reinforced to produce a negative effect.

Ball pythons are reasonably resilient. If you breed 2 siblings together, it's highly unlikely that something bad will crop up in the offspring. (It's still possible--it's also possible with unrelated animals). If you keep doing this over many generations, though, then eventually you're going to strike out.

This is why it's so important for the ball community to start keeping lineage records (and why I use iHerp for that purpose at the moment, until someone starts a registry, such as the one that exists for corn snakes).

The current habit of selling off 'just normals' in a big batch with no records is deplorable. It's going to bite the ball community in the hiney sooner or later. Many morphs are very inbred at present--and so are the normals that crop up from morph pairings.

At the moment, someone could pick up a normal female for outcrossing, and that female could be the sibling of their morph male, and they would never know it.

One thing that helps are having breeders like Outback (not sure who else does it) that imports baby's. I like there grab bag of 10 balls for 150 bucks. Delivered to you as they were packed in Africa. Now those are farmed in Africa so Its not nearly as good but its some thing.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Inbreeding:
Different species are affected to different degrees when inbred. It has a lot to do with how much genetic variation there is within the species--how 'delicate' their genes are when impacted by mutagens. The species with more delicate genes will be carrying more silent mutations--more recessive traits that aren't visible. Most mutations are lethal or harmful--that's across the board, in all species.
Species with more resilient genes will be carrying fewer mutations. These species will rarely show issues when inbred. Some species can withstand inbreeding for many generations before some mutation crops up and is reinforced to produce a negative effect.

Ball pythons are reasonably resilient. If you breed 2 siblings together, it's highly unlikely that something bad will crop up in the offspring. (It's still possible--it's also possible with unrelated animals). If you keep doing this over many generations, though, then eventually you're going to strike out.

This is why it's so important for the ball community to start keeping lineage records (and why I use iHerp for that purpose at the moment, until someone starts a registry, such as the one that exists for corn snakes).

The current habit of selling off 'just normals' in a big batch with no records is deplorable. It's going to bite the ball community in the hiney sooner or later. Many morphs are very inbred at present--and so are the normals that crop up from morph pairings.

At the moment, someone could pick up a normal female for outcrossing, and that female could be the sibling of their morph male, and they would never know it.

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My normal Female which I have close to 3 months corkscrews from time to time. She also has a kinked tail. I'm wondering what her parents were. I got her from a pet store. She eats poops & sheds fine so far. She is up to 430 grams empty. I'm wondering what I should breed her to?:confused:

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Originally Posted by kilabyte

My normal Female which I have close to 3 months corkscrews from time to time. She also has a kinked tail. I'm wondering what her parents were. I got her from a pet store. She eats poops & sheds fine so far. She is up to 430 grams empty. I'm wondering what I should breed her to?:confused:

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If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

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This snake should NEVER breed! Not for any reason. I don't care what anyone else thinks about spiders and wobble, but I am pretty sure that it is a genetic fault that can be passed on to its offspring. Until it can be proved otherwise. All spider/spider-crosses should be monitored, if sold the genetics should be disclosed if not noticeable(visual spider cross), and should not be used to cross into other lines if not wanting the spider gene in the breeding.
Just my 2 cents

I am working with snake keeper line axanthics which is a recessive morph. This is a problem for me in trying to make sure that my animals are not to closley related. Unfortunatley ALL snake keeper line axanthic animals are related to a certain degree, yes some more and some less. I have purchased additional animals from other breeders to "out cross" my line but really you can only use that term loosley since they are all of the same line. I do track all my animals in a pedigree style format so at least I can know who is related to who in my collection. I have also bred daughter to sire last season to prove out a 50% het. In this clutch I produced one male pastel that had a misshaped head. The animal never ate and died about 3 weeks after hatching. So I feel these animals should never be bred to each other again and all of the resulting off spring should be out crossed. A good rule of thumb that I have heard from other breeders to out cross 2 generations before coming back to the line. Which means that the animals bred would share statistically 1/4 of their genes with each other. I am going to try to make sure that this is as "inbred" as I get from here on out. These are just my opinions but I am trying to make sure that the animals I breed from here on out are removed from each other as much as I can.

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One thing that helps are having breeders like Outback (not sure who else does it) that imports baby's. I like there grab bag of 10 balls for 150 bucks. Delivered to you as they were packed in Africa. Now those are farmed in Africa so Its not nearly as good but its some thing.

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I also LOVE to use CH/Farmed females for the exact reason stated above. Half of my collection are these animals.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

If I were you I wouldn't breed her. A kinked tail and a wobble in a normal is a bad trait. But if you do breed her I would pass on the news of the deformity to the buyer. If it has 2 visible deformities imagine what's on the inside? For all you know it could have an enlarged heart and tiny liver making it's total lifespan like 5 years. Sorry if I come off harsh but for me quality is everything.

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If I did breed her most likely I would be keeping her offspring. But if I did sell any of them I would disclose to the buyer the problem with the parent/s. With that said & after your sugggestion and reading other posts I most likely would not breed her having those defects. I hope she lives a long live she is such a sweet snake.I'm going to mention these defects to the pet shop owner whom I bought her from. I was very unaware of these defects when I bought her.

you know im pretty much confused about everything you said. lemme break this down

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I don't care what anyone else thinks about spiders and wobble, but I am pretty sure that it is a genetic fault that can be passed on to its offspring.

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its linked to the spider gene, normals from spider breeding are fine as any other breeding. are you saying that you should tell people if their normals are from a spider breeding?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Until it can be proved otherwise.

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it hasn't been proven? between big breeders and people on this forum i think its proven. Can you prove otherwise?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

. All spider/spider-crosses should be monitored, if sold the genetics should be disclosed if not noticeable(visual spider cross)

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Are you saying all offspring? and what do you mean by monitored? and why wouldn't you disclose the genetics? i mean the more genes the more the snakes worth.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

and should not be used to cross into other lines if not wanting the spider gene in the breeding.

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This I really don't understand, if you don't want a spider in your breeding, why would you use a spider. If your saying a spider sib, well you can't have the spider gene in your breeding, because the sib doesn't carry the gene.

How do you not understand what I said?

Normals as well as other morphs have been hatched with wobble. Did they have spiders in their ancestry?

What has been proven exactly? That all spiders have wobble? Yes. That it can't be passed to non spider offspring? No I don't think anyone has proven this.

Normal offspring produced from spider breedings (non spider babies), IMO, should not be used to breed into other morphs.

I am a firm believer that the spider wobble can be passed onto all spider offspring. Any offspring can potentially be a carrier for the mutated gene that causes the wobble.

That is my belief. You don't have to believe it. It has not been proven otherwise by any one.

Just like some people will try to argue that inbreeding doesn’t affect BP's. I as well as many others can put money on it that it does.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

How do you not understand what I said?

Normals as well as other morphs have been hatched with wobble. Did they have spiders in their ancestry?

What has been proven exactly? That all spiders have wobble? Yes. That it can't be passed to non spider offspring? No I don't think anyone has proven this.

Normal offspring produced from spider breedings (non spider babies), IMO, should not be used to breed into other morphs.

I am a firm believer that the spider wobble can be passed onto all spider offspring. Any offspring can potentially be a carrier for the mutated gene that causes the wobble.

That is my belief. You don't have to believe it. It has not been proven otherwise by any one.

Just like some people will try to argue that inbreeding doesn’t affect BP's. I as well as many others can put money on it that it does.

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I'm not a geneticist, but as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble). Other animals that have a wobble didn't get their wobble from a spider down the line in it's ancestry... IMO. I believe the wobble found in other animals is a random anomoly that just happens..... Like bug eyes, or duck bills, etc. I know that some of the things I named are linked to specific morphs, but it can also happen to normal or wild type offspring too.

Prepare for aimless rambling!

He does have a point. Though the wobble gene is linked to the spider gene, it is possible for them to become unlinked through yet another genetic mutation.

The thing with the wobbling normal in question is that there's no way to know why it's wobbling or why it's kinked. So, unless one wants to risk passing those traits onto any/all of it's offspring, one should not breed it. Does anyone really want a kinked snake? Do you want it to wobble?

I guess if it doesn't affect it's ability to eat, poop, and shed, there's nothing really wrong with it, though. It just looks or acts weird. It may eventually effect those things, though. Just no way to tell.

And that's the problem with the whole debate. There isn't really a way to tell the ill effects of inbreeding for a long, long time. Even in humans and dogs. Humans force every single one to persist no matter what, and reproduce if they get the opportunity. "Your entire family has cancer? Have all the kids you want!" I hear purebred dogs are borderline retarded after the several thousand years of human intervention. Eventually, harmful mutations WILL build up, even if we don't notice it. That's how we got our morphs in the first place. "Cool mutation? Pass it on!"

"as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble)."


I am pretty sure that when BP's are bred that more than just the alleles for the color/pattern are being handed down to the offspring. All genes are passed on. Just because the color/pattern gene wasn’t passed doesn’t mean that a bad/deformed gene wasn't.

Just food for thought. Its more than just the dominant/recessive "visual" genes that we as breeders are dealing with.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

"as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble)."


I am pretty sure that when BP's are bred that more than just the alleles for the color/pattern are being handed down to the offspring. All genes are passed on. Just because the color/pattern gene wasn’t passed doesn’t mean that a bad/deformed gene wasn't.

Just food for thought. Its more than just the dominant/recessive "visual" genes that we as breeders are dealing with.

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True True.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Prepare for aimless rambling!

He does have a point. Though the wobble gene is linked to the spider gene, it is possible for them to become unlinked through yet another genetic mutation.

The thing with the wobbling normal in question is that there's no way to know why it's wobbling or why it's kinked. So, unless one wants to risk passing those traits onto any/all of it's offspring, one should not breed it. Does anyone really want a kinked snake? Do you want it to wobble?

I guess if it doesn't affect it's ability to eat, poop, and shed, there's nothing really wrong with it, though. It just looks or acts weird. It may eventually effect those things, though. Just no way to tell.

And that's the problem with the whole debate. There isn't really a way to tell the ill effects of inbreeding for a long, long time. Even in humans and dogs. Humans force every single one to persist no matter what, and reproduce if they get the opportunity. "Your entire family has cancer? Have all the kids you want!" I hear purebred dogs are borderline retarded after the several thousand years of human intervention. Eventually, harmful mutations WILL build up, even if we don't notice it. That's how we got our morphs in the first place. "Cool mutation? Pass it on!"

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I agree with you 100%! However, I do have a question for you. Who knows that these traits are passable? I mean has there been extensive research to prove that kinks, wobbles, duckbills, etc are passable from a wild type or normal animal? So why should anyone deprive these animals of their natural instinct to breed until it's proven that their kinks and wobbles are or are not hereditary? I mean we know that the spider wobble is definitely hereditary through spiders, but not so much with normals.

The reason I ask is this. I have a birthmark (port wine stain) that covers most of the left side of my face. As far as anyone knows birthmarks or port wine stains are not hereditary. I'm the only person in my family with one. I have 2 sons, neither of them have it. See my point. It's just something that happens. Most people have a birth mark and most are brown in color. Mine however is red. It's a completely different kind of birthmark. Like I said, I'm the only person in my family with one, on both sides for at least 3 generations. So it's obviously not hereditary or someone would have had one by now other than me... right?

a birth mark is different from a genetic disorder. its not coded into your genes, you cant pass it on.

as far as line/in breeding. i think youre alright for a few generations, but id try to mix it up when at all possible

and granted it would be possible for the wobble trait to become unlinked from the spider gene, as far as i know this hasnt happened yet and would probably be less likely than breeding 2 normals and getting and albino lol. so id say that the odds of getting a normal spider sib that wobbles are slim to none.

It's more about the risk that these things are genetic. We just don't know, and it's up to the owner/breeder to decide what they think that risk is, and whether or not they want to take it. Birthmarks are proven to not be a genetic trait.

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Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

and granted it would be possible for the wobble trait to become unlinked from the spider gene, as far as i know this hasnt happened yet and would probably be less likely than breeding 2 normals and getting and albino lol. so id say that the odds of getting a normal spider sib that wobbles are slim to none.

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Oh, of course the odds are very long, but isn't that how we got albinos in the first place?

pretty sure one was imported.....

but that is how all mutations come about. altho its quite very rare lol

Off subject, but has there EVER been another W/C spider found, other than the original? Surely we didnt take the first and only one... Any news if there is if it had a wobble?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Off subject, but has there EVER been another W/C spider found, other than the original? Surely we didnt take the first and only one... Any news if there is if it had a wobble?

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I believe there's only ever been the one found.

And I asked Kevin at NERD whether the original spider wobbled - yes.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

How do you not understand what I said?

Normals as well as other morphs have been hatched with wobble. Did they have spiders in their ancestry?

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Defects happen, doesn't mean its linked to anything. and did they have spider in their ancestry? im sure alot of them don't.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What has been proven exactly? That all spiders have wobble? Yes. That it can't be passed to non spider offspring? No I don't think anyone has proven this.

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Every time someone has a spiderxsomething breeding and doens't report normals having a wooble (which there has to be thousands by now) is proof to me. just because a handful of snakes have a wooble negates the fact that the rest don't?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Normal offspring produced from spider breedings (non spider babies), IMO, should not be used to breed into other morphs.

I am a firm believer that the spider wobble can be passed onto all spider offspring. Any offspring can potentially be a carrier for the mutated gene that causes the wobble.

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Where is the proof tho? Every single spider is a carrier for the wooble, which has to make it dominate, people say its link because the sibling don't have it, plain and simple if you ask me. I mean what other genetic scenario are you thinking is going on here? thats what i think im really not understanding you.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Just like some people will try to argue that inbreeding doesn’t affect BP's. I as well as many others can put money on it that it does.

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Another issue all together... but again wheres the proof lol? I think outcrossing makes better looking animals with the right selective breeding, but I have yet to see any proof of inbreeding doing anything. and don't give me the bullcrap of look snake born without eyes, snake with kinks blah blah blah.... did you know unrelated breedings do that also? again defects happen, now if repeated breedings of related pairs constantly produced defected babies, that would be proof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

"as I recall the spider gene is a dominant gene, which would mean that only the spider offspring should or would have the wobble since it would be the only offspring that would have the spider genetics (normals would not carry any of the spider gene, hence no wobble)."


I am pretty sure that when BP's are bred that more than just the alleles for the color/pattern are being handed down to the offspring. All genes are passed on. Just because the color/pattern gene wasn’t passed doesn’t mean that a bad/deformed gene wasn't.

Just food for thought. Its more than just the dominant/recessive "visual" genes that we as breeders are dealing with.

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:P

I suddenly got this theory for the spider gene that came to me here in another thread. If the gene that makes a spider look like a spider and the gene that makes it wobble are both in an area (locus?) controlled by a "switch" gene and we're only working with that switch gene, then there's no way we could separate the spider gene from the wobble gene without manual manipulation of the genome.

And the wobble seems most like an inner ear thing, especially because of how it effects the snake in no other way. You'd think if it was neurological or muscular, they'd have more problems.

No matter what, long term inbreeding will eventually lead to problems. Prove it out, then outbreed as much as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

but again wheres the proof lol? I think outcrossing makes better looking animals with the right selective breeding, but I have yet to see any proof of inbreeding doing anything. and don't give me the bullcrap of look snake born without eyes, snake with kinks blah blah blah.... did you know unrelated breedings do that also? again defects happen, now if repeated breedings of related pairs constantly produced defected babies, that would be proof.


:P

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Outcrossing and selective breeding is not inbreeding. Now let me emphasize, line (back) breeding is not the same, nor as bad as inbreeding siblingXsibling.

How can you say that any two snakes are not related? Breeder snakes can be sold many times. Offspring are sold all over. Its not controlled or monitored in any way.

Any one that has been breeding for a long time and that has tryed inbreeding sibXsib can tell you just how messed up the offspring can (and often will) be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

No matter what, long term inbreeding will eventually lead to problems. Prove it out, then outbreed as much as possible.

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This would be nice if we all felt the same way. Unfortunatly we don't all see the same page.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

How can you say that any two snakes are not related? Breeder snakes can be sold many times. Offspring are sold all over. Its not controlled or monitored in any way.

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we can't know sometimes, whats your point? But I can know a few generations are not related. go back far enough all snakes are related.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Any one that has been breeding for a long time and that has tryed inbreeding sibXsib can tell you just how messed up the offspring can (and often will) be.

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how many people have breed sibxsib het for a recessive mutation or co dom or w/e? can anyone vouch that the offspring were messed up? i've seen a few good clutches tho. Sure if you take mom and dad, breed sibxsib, take thos babies breed sibxsib, take those babies breed sibxsib, take those babies breed sibxsib, im sure your going to start seeing things pop up (maybe). 1 or 2 generations, i would like to see proof.

I would also still like to hear your theory on the genetics of the spider wooble.

I personally would stay away from it. This is easy to do by holding back females and acquiring new males from other collections. You may get different opinions but this is an easy way to avoid any complications.