Animal cruelty for sure.

Big Gunns has heard of a couple of studies being done with snakes to see if they can live in the cold. He read somewhere that they are keeping snakes in a pit in the Carolinas to see if they can live through the winter. BG is sure they're dead by now.:taz:

Now someone tell BG how this can't be considered animal cruelty.:rage: There is no way they would leave dogs or cats in a pit to see if they would live. PETA would be all over it. You can call it a scientific study all you want, but to BG, if you know an animal is freezing to death and you let it die. IT'S ANIMAL CRUELTY!!!!!

The microchipped animals that were set free might be a little different(although not much), but any animal kept outside in a locked pen to see if will live through the cold is just morally wrong. Like BG said before. There is NO WAY this is done with any other animal. No WAY!!!!!!!!! These "scientist" should be called out on this.

Big Gunns thinks we should call PETA and ask why they're not picketing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns thinks we should call PETA and ask why they're not picketing.

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Thats horrible :(
We should do something?!?!
Do you have the link to the article?

why would u want to call a terrorist group like peta? any one that has anything to do with those people are off there rocker.

Im not sure about calling Peta but I find that disgusting. It is very sad. Just because it is in the name of science...doesn't justify it. It reminds me of that artist....(I can't remember where it was) that was letting that dog starve in the name of art. He was leashed just short enough not to get the food and water. I think there is a special place in He** for ppl like that. :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stuck

why would u want to call a terrorist group like peta? any one that has anything to do with those people are off there rocker.

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Ok, no terrorists, then someone else???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns has heard of a couple of studies being done with snakes to see if they can live in the cold. He read somewhere that they are keeping snakes in a pit in the Carolinas to see if they can live through the winter. BG is sure they're dead by now.:taz:

Now someone tell BG how this can't be considered animal cruelty.:rage: There is no way they would leave dogs or cats in a pit to see if they would live. PETA would be all over it. You can call it a scientific study all you want, but to BG, if you know an animal is freezing to death and you let it die. IT'S ANIMAL CRUELTY!!!!!

The microchipped animals that were set free might be a little different(although not much), but any animal kept outside in a locked pen to see if will live through the cold is just morally wrong. Like BG said before. There is NO WAY this is done with any other animal. No WAY!!!!!!!!! These "scientist" should be called out on this.

---

I don't know about recently, but I do recall reading a study done to this effect sometime ago. I am sure someone could find it with a Google search?

i don't think we should up and picket this study. it is being done with wild caught burms from the glades. this study could prove that the media hype about the "python invasion" isn't as big as a threat as some are making it out to be.

would you rather a couple of these animals be used for some data to help our community rather than them being killed for no use? at the very least, these animals are being used to help us.

Didnt VPI do the same thing in Texas with a bunch of animals in outdoor enclosures?

I can only say this, the people performing this experiment down there were probably hired by a group to confirm or deny a theory. We obviously think its stupid because we KNOW that they will be killed by the cold.

Now, do you think that there are possibly ANY un-educated people down in Florida or across the US that KNOW that these snakes can survive colder temperatures like their native counterparts? All they gotta do is crawl in a hole right? WRONG.....

Wouldn't you find this a VITAL test to prove whether or not S373 or HR669 or HR2811 or any other bill that is brought out due to Florida problem, and a Florida problem ONLY?!? NOT a Federal issue?

Wouldnt you want the people trying to take away your animals to get REAL HARD PROOF that these snakes CANT survive colder temperatures above Florida, and due to the recent cold snap even survive in parts of Florida!?!?

Much worse has been done in the name of science.

http://www.ideaconnection.com/soluti...-research.html

It is an important experiment to help disprove the USGS report and stop the ban, or at least get some hard scientific evidence on our side.
Gotta kill a couple virgins if you want it to rain, no?

While I understand it.....and I understand medical testing....I still don't like it. I just wish there was a different way to do it. I hate any animal being put through that. In an age where we can go into space for long periods of time. Have rockets that shoot bombs out of the sky..etc...etc. I just wish we could come up with something that could simulate as opposed to using the innocent so to speak. :tears:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

While I understand it.....and I understand medical testing....I still don't like it. I just wish there was a different way to do it. I hate any animal being put through that. In an age where we can go into space for long periods of time. Have rockets that shoot bombs out of the sky..etc...etc. I just wish we could come up with something that could simulate as opposed to using the innocent so to speak. :tears:

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Agreed

I've heard of things like this being done on a variaty of reptiles. :tears: I read somewhere, and I can't find the link now, that the Nile monitors that were being caught in Florida where being tested in the same way to see how far north "This plague" could spread. Plague...HA! The greatest "plague" this planet has ever seen in the human race....

Don't you think that aligning yourself in ANY way with peta is stupid?

I suppose if you actually have respect for them it would make sense but someone with the cranial capacity you constantly brag of really should know better.

I'm with you on the animal cruelty thing but come on neil, use your brain before you sensationalize.

Wow....

So its not ok to torture an animal and kill it, unless it suits your needs politically?

You guys need to get some help if that's all that it takes to say things are ok. Treating anything alive in this manner is wrong - these are basic rights of anything in the world. I step on bugs here and there, and I swat bee's when they're trying to sting me but I most definitely don't condone and never will an animal, person or otherwise being sacrificed just to prove a point one way or the other. You can EASILY scientifically with past evidence prove that these animals cannot survive these conditions - through autopsies, and through other methods from private owners and corpses found in the wild.

I don't know where this "heard of" article is gathered or quoted from but the entire thing seems preposterous and goober-ed up to begin with. If these are real scientists either someone grossly exaggerated the study or these are the same people who get on youtube in lab coats and tell you that the earth is young.

*gets off soap box*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Didnt VPI do the same thing in Texas with a bunch of animals in outdoor enclosures?

I can only say this, the people performing this experiment down there were probably hired by a group to confirm or deny a theory. We obviously think its stupid because we KNOW that they will be killed by the cold.

Now, do you think that there are possibly ANY un-educated people down in Florida or across the US that KNOW that these snakes can survive colder temperatures like their native counterparts? All they gotta do is crawl in a hole right? WRONG.....

Wouldn't you find this a VITAL test to prove whether or not S373 or HR669 or HR2811 or any other bill that is brought out due to Florida problem, and a Florida problem ONLY?!? NOT a Federal issue?

Wouldnt you want the people trying to take away your animals to get REAL HARD PROOF that these snakes CANT survive colder temperatures above Florida, and due to the recent cold snap even survive in parts of Florida!?!?

---

This wouldn't surprise BG if they did even though they would know the snakes would die for a fact. Hopefully they didn't.:taz:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Don't you think that aligning yourself in ANY way with peta is stupid?

I suppose if you actually have respect for them it would make sense but someone with the cranial capacity you constantly brag of really should know better.

I'm with you on the animal cruelty thing but come on neil, use your brain before you sensationalize.

---

Sorry Willy....BG forgot his emoticon. Obviously if you know BG's MO(you clearly don't but he knows Willy's) he was joking..... although....if they didn't picket they could be called hypocrites if we did call.

As far as "cranial capacity". If Big Gunns gave the real numbers, everyone else wouldn't have the "cranial capacity" to understand.:P:D

"sensationalize"????? Now why should we start doing that? Oh yeah.....that's what they're doing to us. It seems to be the only thing that works nowadays.:taz:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

"sensationalize"????? Now why should we start doing that? Oh yeah.....that's what they're doing to us. It seems to be the only thing that works nowadays.:taz:

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Killing puppies and blaming others worked pretty well until they got caught.

I suppose if the other side does it then your side should to. That seems to be what you're implying. I know you don't mean that but your superior intellect is confusing to those of us who are so far below that thresh hold of super human intelligence which you so ably embody.

Doing what they do doesn't make it right or the right thing to do.

I'm surprised you don't know that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Killing puppies and blaming others worked pretty well until they got caught.

I suppose if the other side does it then your side should to. That seems to be what you're implying. I know you don't mean that but your superior intellect is confusing to those of us who are so far below that thresh hold of super human intelligence which you so ably embody.

Doing what they do doesn't make it right or the right thing to do.

I'm surprised you don't know that.

---

Yeah that's EXACTLY what BG was saying Willy. You'll try anything to make the fans upset with BG won't yah. BG is condoning puppy killing....maybe that will work. Somethings gotta work. Please let me have the spotlight back.:D Sorry Willy....you'll just have to wait until BG goes on another top secret mission.:P:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Yeah that's EXACTLY what BG was saying Willy. You'll try anything to make the fans upset with BG won't yah. BG is condoning puppy killing....maybe that will work. Somethings gotta work. Please let me have the spotlight back.:D Sorry Willy....you'll just have to wait until BG goes on another top secret mission.:P:D

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:rofl::rofl:

well..it WAS funny!:8:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=94808

Quote:

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Originally Posted by opivy

Wow....

So its not ok to torture an animal and kill it, unless it suits your needs politically?

You guys need to get some help if that's all that it takes to say things are ok. Treating anything alive in this manner is wrong - these are basic rights of anything in the world. I step on bugs here and there, and I swat bee's when they're trying to sting me but I most definitely don't condone and never will an animal, person or otherwise being sacrificed just to prove a point one way or the other. You can EASILY scientifically with past evidence prove that these animals cannot survive these conditions - through autopsies, and through other methods from private owners and corpses found in the wild.

I don't know where this "heard of" article is gathered or quoted from but the entire thing seems preposterous and goober-ed up to begin with. If these are real scientists either someone grossly exaggerated the study or these are the same people who get on youtube in lab coats and tell you that the earth is young.

*gets off soap box*

---

i hope you make sure that everything (and i do mean everything) you use in your day to day life has not been tested on animals.

getting "past evidence" would be hard considering that these animals stick within certain ranges in the wild. and a certain temperature range that an animal stays in dosen't always mean it cannot survive in temps that are not "optimal". studies like these happen all the time to determine treats of invaders. i have seen first hand some of these threats. if it wasn't for animal testing, we would not have any of the medications we now have.

even if the animals were not used for the experiment, they would have been killed. when the burms are found by the people who found them (skip snow ect.) they usually kill them and dissect them to see what they have been eating. so at the very least, the animals used for this study are going to preserve a hobby we are all here for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

Didnt VPI do the same thing in Texas with a bunch of animals in outdoor enclosures?

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The VPI experiment in question. They had the snakes in indoor/outdoor enclosures where the snakes were free to move about as they chose, not a situation where they were forced to be outdoors at all times.

BG I thought you were leaving?......I am about to picket you not leaving!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Yeah that's EXACTLY what BG was saying Willy. You'll try anything to make the fans upset with BG won't yah. BG is condoning puppy killing....maybe that will work. Somethings gotta work. Please let me have the spotlight back.:D Sorry Willy....you'll just have to wait until BG goes on another top secret mission.:P:D

---

neil, perhaps in my failed attempts to make you understand that your intellect is so far superior to anyeone's, even mine, you have overlooked to forest for the trees.

I don't give a rat's pointy ass about fans. That's YOUR deal. The fact that you have more than once made a post which can reasonably be taken to mean a certain thing, then once that reasonable thing has been pointed out to not be what YOU thought it was, you have taken refuge in the,"oops, didn't mean to say that/forgot the emoticon/you'll do anything to make me look bad to my fans," stance.

I am unsure why I should care who or what, in the case of the broadass ones, your fans are or are not. Is there some competition of which my minuscule intellect is incapable of perceiving yet which to you is all encompassing? Because I sure don't see one.

Surely one so gifted as you, not only physically but mentally, should be able to flawlessly and consistently write what he means to without confusing the doofuses (doofusi?) such as myself. I mean, it seems to me, far inferior to you, that this should not be a problem but, and this is significant, because I seem to be able to do so myself and, frankly, knowing that I can do something better than you just doesn't seem right. I'm sure you'll agree.

Perhaps in your haste to whip it out and impress these fans you constantly speak of you are not achieving the quality you so rightly deserve to be known for. Perhaps in your zeal to harpoon, or lampoon, those for whom you feel.....envy? no.....hate? again no..... compassion? certainly not ......well, I don't know what it is you feel, no doubt because my simple mind does not have enough neurons, not to mention size (you are the biggest, that's a given) to encompass or experience that which is common place for an intellect as superior as is yours.

Sigh. If ONLY I had a clue about what you were about I would not feel so like a drowning man in the middle of a storm tossed sea with no land or rescue in sight. Alas....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

neil, perhaps in my failed attempts to make you understand that your intellect is so far superior to anyeone's, even mine, you have overlooked to forest for the trees.

I don't give a rat's pointy ass about fans. That's YOUR deal. The fact that you have more than once made a post which can reasonably be taken to mean a certain thing, then once that reasonable thing has been pointed out to not be what YOU thought it was, you have taken refuge in the,"oops, didn't mean to say that/forgot the emoticon/you'll do anything to make me look bad to my fans," stance.

I am unsure why I should care who or what, in the case of the broadass ones, your fans are or are not. Is there some competition of which my minuscule intellect is incapable of perceiving yet which to you is all encompassing? Because I sure don't see one.

Surely one so gifted as you, not only physically but mentally, should be able to flawlessly and consistently write what he means to without confusing the doofuses (doofusi?) such as myself. I mean, it seems to me, far inferior to you, that this should not be a problem but, and this is significant, because I seem to be able to do so myself and, frankly, knowing that I can do something better than you just doesn't seem right. I'm sure you'll agree.

Perhaps in your haste to whip it out and impress these fans you constantly speak of you are not achieving the quality you so rightly deserve to be known for. Perhaps in your zeal to harpoon, or lampoon, those for whom you feel.....envy? no.....hate? again no..... compassion? certainly not ......well, I don't know what it is you feel, no doubt because my simple mind does not have enough neurons, not to mention size (you are the biggest, that's a given) to encompass or experience that which is common place for an intellect as superior as is yours.

Sigh. If ONLY I had a clue about what you were about I would not feel so like a drowning man in the middle of a storm tossed sea with no land or rescue in sight. Alas....

---

There was no "oops" on BG's part. BG knows full well what he posted and why he posted it. Although if you don't believe BG, you can keep up with this "look everyone...BG's really not perfect...I am". He's sure your loyal followers(the weak) will believe it.:D Clearly BG wanted everyone to run to the phone and call Peta:rolleyes:(emoticon for Willy)


Since you obviously have not heeded Big Gunns signature about his "big poker". BG will do what you ask. He will put in simple terms so the "doofuses" can fully understand why you have issue with Big Gunns. Unfortunately for you Willy, BG has a way with words that will clearly show your motives.:P


Get your cameras ready fans. Big Gunns is taking out his "Big Poker".:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olstyn

The VPI experiment in question. They had the snakes in indoor/outdoor enclosures where the snakes were free to move about as they chose, not a situation where they were forced to be outdoors at all times.

---

That's much better. Anyone that really knows snakes knows what will happen though. There is really no point in the experiment, but BG guesses that it could be used to prove to the dumb that the snakes can't take the cold.

It is kinda weird that this cold snap in Florida might just actually help us. Lucky for us it wasn't a warm winter .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

There was no "oops" on BG's part. BG knows full well what he posted and why he posted it. Although if you don't believe BG, you can keep up with this "look everyone...BG's really not perfect...I am". He's sure your loyal followers(the weak) will believe it.:D Clearly BG wanted everyone to run to the phone and call Peta:rolleyes:(emoticon for Willy)


Since you obviously have not heeded Big Gunns signature about his "big poker". BG will do what you ask. He will put in simple terms so the "doofuses" can fully understand why you have issue with Big Gunns. Unfortunately for you Willy, BG has a way with words that will clearly show your motives.:P


Get your cameras ready fans. Big Gunns is taking out his "Big Poker".:D

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Ahhhhh, thankyoueversomuch. I am so looking forward to seeing your skill at work, though I am somewhat concerned that you are spending soooooooo much time with lowly underedumacated me when surely there are vital and important matters that would be better served by your undivided attention.

But, as you say, you know what you're doing so, I suppose, I guess, that you are complimenting me but not in a direct way, as is ever your way, unless, as always, I have misconstrued your true meaning, by lavashing your pokerizing on me.

I take it this means the marionettes are all cleaned, the strings all strung, and the backsides all greased? Wouldn't want you getting any nasty splinters in your fin, er paw, ummm... hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Ahhhhh, thankyoueversomuch. I am so looking forward to seeing your skill at work, though I am somewhat concerned that you are spending soooooooo much time with lowly underedumacated me when surely there are vital and important matters that would be better served by your undivided attention.

But, as you say, you know what you're doing so, I suppose, I guess, that you are complimenting me but not in a direct way, as is ever your way, unless, as always, I have misconstrued your true meaning, by lavashing your pokerizing on me.

I take it this means the marionettes are all cleaned, the strings all strung, and the backsides all greased? Wouldn't want you getting any nasty splinters in your fin, er paw, ummm... hand.

---

Don't worry Willy, BG hasn't wasted much of his valuable time with yah. As a matter of fact, he didn't want to waste any. However you keep denying the fact that you don't care about having Big Gunns fans, and BG knows you do. BG is pretty sure you realize this fact, but you may be oblivious to it. BG will fix that for yah. BG needs to train though so it might take some time. You have time to take a nap Willy.:P:D

OYE......what the............

What is the dang problem with the two of you. Wilomn and BG that is. You two bicker like an old married couple. GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry Wilomn...but everytime BG says something it seems like you confront him for something. And BG...you clearly are not gonna take it and fire back...and so it begins.

You two need to chill out your agression towards each other...and don't give me ...."oh I don't have any blah blah blah.....". Do not make me fly out, kidnapp you two and lock you guys in the same room until you get along...:colbert:....I'll do it dang it!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

OYE......what the............

What is the dang problem with the two of you. Wilomn and BG that is. You two bicker like an old married couple. GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry Wilomn...but everytime BG says something it seems like you confront him for something. And BG...you clearly are not gonna take it and fire back...and so it begins.

You two need to chill out your agression towards each other...and don't give me ...."oh I don't have any blah blah blah.....". Do not make me fly out, kidnapp Big Gunns and lock us both in the same room until we get it on...:colbert:....I'll do it dang it!!

---

BG is sure you would. Didn't you say your hubby is outta town?;):D

Don't worry honey, BG will straighten this fued(not really BG loves Willy) out for yah.:gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

OYE......what the............

What is the dang problem with the two of you. Wilomn and BG that is. You two bicker like an old married couple. GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry Wilomn...but everytime BG says something it seems like you confront him for something. And BG...you clearly are not gonna take it and fire back...and so it begins.

You two need to chill out your agression towards each other...and don't give me ...."oh I don't have any blah blah blah.....". Do not make me fly out, kidnapp you two and lock you guys in the same room until you get along...:colbert:....I'll do it dang it!!

---

Eh, do as you must.

But know this, you are falling into the trap one of us has so cunningly set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i don't think we should up and picket this study. it is being done with wild caught burms from the glades. this study could prove that the media hype about the "python invasion" isn't as big as a threat as some are making it out to be.

would you rather a couple of these animals be used for some data to help our community rather than them being killed for no use? at the very least, these animals are being used to help us.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2kdime

Didnt VPI do the same thing in Texas with a bunch of animals in outdoor enclosures?

I can only say this, the people performing this experiment down there were probably hired by a group to confirm or deny a theory. We obviously think its stupid because we KNOW that they will be killed by the cold.

Now, do you think that there are possibly ANY un-educated people down in Florida or across the US that KNOW that these snakes can survive colder temperatures like their native counterparts? All they gotta do is crawl in a hole right? WRONG.....

Wouldn't you find this a VITAL test to prove whether or not S373 or HR669 or HR2811 or any other bill that is brought out due to Florida problem, and a Florida problem ONLY?!? NOT a Federal issue?

Wouldnt you want the people trying to take away your animals to get REAL HARD PROOF that these snakes CANT survive colder temperatures above Florida, and due to the recent cold snap even survive in parts of Florida!?!?

---

BG does understand that this kind of experiment can help us, but BG's point is that it would never be done with other animals. Do you think they would do something like this with feral cats?(the biggest invasive species ever by the way)

Like BG stated earlier. The animals with the microchip are a leeetle different, but not much when they know where they are and it's freezing out. They still know the animals are suffering. No way it's done with any other animal. If it was.... BG wants to see it.... and see if it was made public while it was being done.

What we need to realize from this is. Nobody really cares about us or our snakes. People just don't care about a snake. They don't care if we have them(well they do, but not in good way), or if they suffer in death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Eh, do as you must.

But know this, you are falling into the trap one of us has so cunningly set.

---

Yes it is my friend BG hasn't met yet.;):D

Yes the Barkers studies allowed the snakes to choose between warmth and the cold. There were many types of boas and pythons used. They all had access to go indoors. They all had heating mats on both the outdoor and the inside portion of the enclosures. It seems only certain boas actually chose to stay inside or at least on the heat mat if they were outside. This was to prove that these snake will not seek out warmth like it was assumed they would. IE, snakes purposely going into homes or under homes to find warmth from the cold. Many of these snakes did die. They submitted their reports to the chicago herp society.

How much more proof does one need?

I do agree with BG that if there are snakes being left out in the cold just to see if they will die, is wrong. That is not a scientific study. Its not a matter of IF they will die, its a matter of when they will freeze to death or die a slow death from an RI.

I am not completely against animal studies for medical purposes but this does not seem like a proper study at all. They are not being humanely killed. Such as they are to be if caught in the wild. They are being allowed to suffer with no other choice. These people should really read the Barkers report.

A while ago I watched a similar study about putting snakes in the refrigerator. The purpose was to determine what effects it had on their heart tissue, which reacts differently than mammal tissue. If I remember correctly, the end result of the study was to isolate an enzyme that could be beneficial to humans and heart-transplant recipients.

I love snakes and reptiles, but I am of the opinion that no animal life is equal to a human being. We feed animals (some feed live animals) to our snakes. The same rodents are used in labs to help find cures to human disease. We may not eat them, but their lives are ended for our benefit just the same.

One experiment frequently cited by animal-rights groups was conducted on dogs in the 1940s by Russian Doctor Sergei S. Bryukhonenko. Basically, he cut off the heads of dogs and hooked the arteries up to a primitive autojektor (artificial heart and lung machine). This kept the heads alive for a while. He also grafted heads onto the bodies of other dogs, attaching the arteries in such a way that they remained alive. (Until the strain of supplying blood to 2 heads caused the dogs heart to give out.) You can see some of the video of his experiments on YouTube.

As I see it: several decades ago a few dozen dogs were experimented on. Today, hundreds of thousands of people are alive due to the organ transplant techniques pioneered by Dr. Bryukhonenko (many of which are still in use today!), and the early autojektor he created.

I doubt the people alive today, and their families, would place their lives under that of a dog. Or a dozen dogs. As much as it pains me to consider our beloved snakes being used in experiments that may ultimately save many more human lives, I see the potential for a greater good.

I feel that animal testing is necessary, but should be done in the most humane and direct way possible, and only when a beneficial discovery is concluded to be attainable. (IE: No testing lipstick on kittens... :rolleye2:)

PS: Basically every medication that is approved by the FDA, and virtually every surgical technique, has to go through Animal Trials. Even aspirin!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightLad

A while ago I watched a similar study about putting snakes in the refrigerator. The purpose was to determine what effects it had on their heart tissue, which reacts differently than mammal tissue. If I remember correctly, the end result of the study was to isolate an enzyme that could be beneficial to humans and heart-transplant recipients.

I love snakes and reptiles, but I am of the opinion that no animal life is equal to a human being. We feed animals (some feed live animals) to our snakes. The same rodents are used in labs to help find cures to human disease. We may not eat them, but their lives are ended for our benefit just the same.

One experiment frequently cited by animal-rights groups was conducted on dogs in the 1940s by Russian Doctor Sergei S. Bryukhonenko. Basically, he cut off the heads of dogs and hooked the arteries up to a primitive autojektor (artificial heart and lung machine). This kept the heads alive for a while. He also grafted heads onto the bodies of other dogs, attaching the arteries in such a way that they remained alive. (Until the strain of supplying blood to 2 heads caused the dogs heart to give out.) You can see some of the video of his experiments on YouTube.

As I see it: a few decades ago a few dozen dogs were experimented on. Today, hundreds of thousands of people are alive due to the organ transplant techniques pioneered by Dr. Bryukhonenko (many of which are still in use today!), and the early autojektor he created.

I doubt the people alive today, and their families, would place their lives under that of a dog. Or a dozen dogs. As much as it pains me to consider our beloved snakes being used in experiments that may ultimately save many more human lives, I see the potential for a greater good.

I feel that animal testing is necessary, but should be done in the most humane and direct way possible, and only when a beneficial discovery is concluded to be attainable. (IE: No testing lipstick on kittens... :rolleye2:)

PS: Basically every medication that is approved by the FDA, and virtually every surgical technique, has to go through Animal Trials. Even aspirin!

---

One problem though. These studies have nothing to do with anything that benefits humans.:taz:

BG knows what you're saying, but it doesn't apply in this case.:taz:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

BG does understand that this kind of experiment can help us, but BG's point is that it would never be done with other animals. Do you think they would do something like this with feral cats?(the biggest invasive species ever by the way)

Like BG stated earlier. The animals with the microchip are a leeetle different, but not much when they know where they are and it's freezing out. They still know the animals are suffering. No way it's done with any other animal. If it was.... BG wants to see it.... and see if it was made public while it was being done.

What we need to realize from this is. Nobody really cares about us or our snakes. People just don't care about a snake. They don't care if we have them(well they do, but not in good way), or if they suffer in death.

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guns, these experiments have been done time and time again. using controled environments, animals are stressed to highs and lows to see when their bodies stop functioning and what the optimal range is for the animal. you can do these experiments for a number of factors such as salinities, oxygen concentrations and, as in this case, temps. these studies are a vital part of science especially in marine science to show how human impacts can and will effect populations of animals. you wanted an example so here is one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1471837v6763712/. not sure if you can open the entire article. i use a computer connected to a university network so i can get a number of journal articles.

this type of test can show some valuable information that may not become evident in a lab. it is my understanding that the animals are in a large pin outdoors. if a similar study was done indoors in a caged environment, you could question just about everything with the experiment. for example, how do you know that the animal was suffering from temperature stress or the stress from being in a cage. lab experiments can be helpful but nothing compares to the data you can get from an in situ experiments.

now, is this particular study vital to science....well maybe not. was the animal going to die anyway....YES! i said it before and i will say it again. at least the animal wasn't killed for no reason. we now will have some good information on temperature stress in large constrictors.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

BG is sure you would. Didn't you say your hubby is outta town?;):D

Don't worry honey, BG will straighten this fued(not really BG loves Willy) out for yah.:gj:

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OMG..you changed my quote...lol....it was YOU and WILOMN....:rofl: Oye..should have seen that coming....:rolleyes:....I pretty much set myself up of that one...:rofl:

Ladies and gentlemen, this type of research is and has been going on for decades if not longer. The human race has used all animals in very odd and disturbing forms of research.

I guess it's kinda like eating at your favorite restaurant and really enjoying the experience for years. Then one day you apply for a job in their kitchen and see what actually occurs in that kitchen. You've lost your taste for any of their dishes. Sometimes it's better to NOT know how things are done.

This same thing goes for animal research. You knew something was going on, until one day you read an article or watch something on the internet. then you realize how we treat our animal friends while doing research.

I'm not saying it right or wrong to do this type of research, but it is what it is. Do a little searching on the internet, most of the more important medical discoveries have been due to research on animals.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

guns, these experiments have been done time and time again. using controled environments, animals are stressed to highs and lows to see when their bodies stop functioning and what the optimal range is for the animal. you can do these experiments for a number of factors such as salinities, oxygen concentrations and, as in this case, temps. these studies are a vital part of science especially in marine science to show how human impacts can and will effect populations of animals. you wanted an example so here is one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1471837v6763712/. not sure if you can open the entire article. i use a computer connected to a university network so i can get a number of journal articles.

this type of test can show some valuable information that may not become evident in a lab. it is my understanding that the animals are in a large pin outdoors. if a similar study was done indoors in a caged environment, you could question just about everything with the experiment. for example, how do you know that the animal was suffering from temperature stress or the stress from being in a cage. lab experiments can be helpful but nothing compares to the data you can get from an in situ experiments.

now, is this particular study vital to science....well maybe not. was the animal going to die anyway....YES! i said it before and i will say it again. at least the animal wasn't killed for no reason. we now will have some good information on temperature stress in large constrictors.

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You're giving BG a crab?:rofl: Uh OH...BG is being a hypocrite. All crab owners are gonna be po'd at BG.

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

OMG..you changed my quote...lol....it was YOU and WILOMN....:rofl: Oye..should have seen that coming....:rolleyes:....I pretty much set myself up of that one...:rofl:

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Yes you did.:P:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Ladies and gentlemen, this type of research is and has been going on for decades if not longer. The human race has used all animals in very odd and disturbing forms of research.

I guess it's kinda like eating at your favorite restaurant and really enjoying the experience for years. Then one day you apply for a job in their kitchen and see what actually occurs in that kitchen. You've lost your taste for any of their dishes. Sometimes it's better to NOT know how things are done.

This same thing goes for animal research. You knew something was going on, until one day you read an article or watch something on the internet. then you realize how we treat our animal friends while doing research.

I'm not saying it right or wrong to do this type of research, but it is what it is. Do a little searching on the internet, most of the more important medical discoveries have been due to research on animals.

Jim Smith

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Yes...BG knows all about the monkeys given the aids virus and nasty things of that kind, but all of these studies are like someone said earlier. They are to help the human race(BG still hates them). These are not. The snakes are left to die in the cold. This does not help us "higher beings" at all.:taz:

WOW:weirdface

i just gave an example BG. they do it for more than just crabs.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i don't think we should up and picket this study. it is being done with wild caught burms from the glades. this study could prove that the media hype about the "python invasion" isn't as big as a threat as some are making it out to be.

would you rather a couple of these animals be used for some data to help our community rather than them being killed for no use? at the very least, these animals are being used to help us.

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I agree with this. If this proves that all this python propaganda is overblown and helps our hobby why should we complain about this. Like stated its a few wild caught burms that would be chopped up anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i just gave an example BG. they do it for more than just crabs.

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BG is just busting your chops...like always.:D

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Originally Posted by djansen

I agree with this. If this proves that all this python propaganda is overblown and helps our hobby why should we complain about this. Like stated its a few wild caught burms that would be chopped up anyway.

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Big Gunns is against them being "chopped up" also. :taz:

He does think that this study may help us, and he's not totally against the microchipping of animals to see if they will live. There is however a couple(BG needs to find them) studies where snakes are being left out to see if they'll freeze. BG's just making the point that they would never do it with dogs or cats.

Here's one study. Wonder what the results were.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories...t_529137.shtml

Here is more on it. You need to read all the pages. BG isn't done with them all yet, but it does look like they're in a pit and can't escape. At least one person in the article knows they'll die. We need to find out if they let them die. BG doesn't like it if they did:taz:, but it would help us. Then we can go after them for animal cruelty.

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/articl...9976?p=2&tc=pg

Somebody from USArk and the like need to find out if this guy is gonna give his true results or not. BG has heard nothing of the results of this "experiment".

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

BG is just busting your chops...like always.:D

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i know and i had a funny response but changed it for fear in infractions.....:D