Morality of Cross breeding?

I saw a pic of a Carpondro a Carpet x Green Tree cross, it was beautiful, is it wrong to cross breed species just to get something cool, any health risks?

I actually saw some at a reptile show...:D very kewl! I think they called them "carpochondros" or something like that. Hybrids are one of those touchy subjects. I think its all in the eye of the beholder, as hybridization does happen in nature occasionally.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

hybridization does happen in nature occasionally.

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This is a VERY touchy subject, hopefully we can tread loosely. Carpondros are really cool animals to some people and an utter disgrace to others. I like carpondros bred back to green trees. There is not much hybridization between non sub species animals in the wild. Carpets overlap and several colubrids cross breed in nature. There are naturally occurring carpondros because GTPs can be found on the tip of Australia where some species of carpet pythons are. There are even reports of wild caught crosses between amazon tree boas and emeralds. On a personal note I'm not opposed to breeds that could happen in the wild. I do not agree with carpet x ball or anything like that. However, that's only my opinion. Everything on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt.

It doesn't really bother me... but you won't catch me doing it. I'd much rather have a clutch of carpets and a clutch of chondros. But hey, whatever floats your boat. Listening to Eugene Bassette talk about them on reptile radio might provide some better information, since he produces a lot of these. He refers to them as Cheviridis. A combination of M. S. Cheynei and M. Viridis. I remember him talking about knowing the genetics of what kind of chondro and carpet you are using, you can't just use any two specimens and produce viable offspring.

I don't know about carpodro's but I own a pair of corndurans. They are really beautiful animals and I was going to do an F2 generation but decided not to and I am just keeping them as pets, no breeding in their future. Corndurans are a Corn X Honduran Milk hybrid. They are a deep candy apple red, orange and black. Do a google search and they will pop up somewhere. Hybrids in general are a touchy subject, but I really like mine. They were the first snakes that I bought when I got back into them. I went looking for a honduran milk or a nice corn and found these guys, so at the time it made sense to me. Kind of the best of both worlds.
Mike Kelly

I have no issue with hybrid snakes. From what I hear, the reason most people have a problem with them is because when bred to each others you can get some that look like a pure green tree or carpet, etc. and are then sold off as pure. Obviously, this is a huge issue for the people who buy them thinking they are pure as they look it, also having the intent to breed, then once they are bred they find out they are not pure as they are getting babies that look nothing like the "pure" snake they purchased.

Again, I have no issue with hybrids, but I can see why people would if they are the ones getting sold something that is not what they were told it is. Other than that issue, I do not see any other issues with it. We just need to fix the people that are dishonest of what they are selling, ha ha.

No known health risks, so far. Just take lots of photos, and make sure you keep meticulous records. You want the parentage of your hybrids to be known.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with hybrids--all of our animals are pets, they are NEVER going to be released into the wild, and neither are their offspring. A person who wants to keep animals as a reservoir population for re-stocking wild populations needs to know exactly where their foundation animals originated, down the GPS location. If they don't, then they're not serious about it, and there is virtually no chance their animals, or the offspring of their animals, could ever be released.
It's a completely different situation, because the traits you select for in a reservoir population are those that will benefit wild animals--not those that make for good pets. You want reactive animals, vigorous animals, cryptically colored and shy and defensive of handling. Those animals will do well in the wild.

In pets, you want docile animals that don't mind cage life, are easily handled and experience no stress from it, eat FT rodents, and hang out in the open where we can see them. The polar opposite of wild survival behavior.

Obviously no morphs will be released! So, since these animals we're keeping are purely pets, and they and their offspring always will be, there is no problem with hybridizing them and breeding morphs and combos to make more interesting and beautiful pets. Again, just be certain that you keep careful lineage records--of the parents, of the offspring, and of who they're sold to.

Pollution created by the whim of man, often for the sake of a buck..
My feelings on it..:salute:

Honestly I don't see any problem with hybrids so long as the offspring are healthy.

Imperial kingsnakes
Corndurans
Chondros


All beautiful animals, gifts from God I believe. I would have to read more but I think they are healthy combos to and thats what matters. I certainly would not promote a combo that made sickly or unhealthy children.

thanks guys for the input, from what i gathered most of everyone is cool with it as long as it is with the right intentions, mainly i just wanted to try to make something different than the norm.

I think the hybrids are great. The only issue is that there's the possibility of a seller selling one animal when it's something else. However, that's the risk when you're buying het animals, even. Just boils down to buying from a reputable breeder.

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Originally Posted by reptilebrett

I saw a pic of a Carpondro a Carpet x Green Tree cross, it was beautiful, is it wrong to cross breed species just to get something cool, any health risks?

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Wrong is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to morals.

Is it wrong to breed for albinism, known for problems with sight and issues with sunlight (in many species, not just snakes)? Is it wrong for people to breed jaguar carpet pythons or spider ball pythons, both of which are known to have neurological disorder "quirks" in their behavior? How about the caramel trait, which is linked to spinal kinking in some % of offspring?

Is it wrong to breed animals in captivity for fun? for money? because it's a cool experience?

Is it wrong to keep animals in captivity, especially non-social, non-domesticated animals such as reptiles?

I guarantee you that there are many people on both sides of the fence for all the above situations.

That's just the "moral" part of your question. You won't get a straight answer, because there is none. Here's what is more important IMO, and a more answerable part of the puzzle when determining whether or not to hybridize:

There are plenty of people who are worried about hybrids being misrepresented as pure-blooded. It has happened with corn snakes and king snakes, there are many "corn snakes" out there that are something like 1/64 king snake as well. Does it matter? To some people it does. Is the colubrid breeding hobby still going strong though? Yes, very much so. I don't believe that hybridization has ruined the colubrid breeding hobby. However, any 'harm' that was done through misrepresented hybrids is completely unfixable without starting over from wild-caught specimens. This is particularly difficult for snakes such as carpet pythons, as exporting out of Australia is illegal.

On to health problems:

This is, IMO, the most important thing to consider about hybrids. I definitely believe that breeding hybrids that have shown to have significant health problems is wrong. That is just my opinion, but I think that most people who like animals aren't exactly in favor of breeding an animal that always grows too fast and dies in agony from joint pain (one example of possible issues).

Carpondros have no health problems that I know of. In fact, all successful snake hybrids seem to be pretty freaking healthy. This is NOT the case with many mammal hybrids. The woma python x ball python seems to be a very healthy snake, as are retic x burms, burm x ball, ball x short tailed python.. The fact that python hybrids from such a diverse number of pairings of species from different continents turn out healthy is VERY surprising to me.

I do know that many of those hybrids were not easy to accomplish. Small egg clutches and low hatch rates are pretty common with attempts at snake hybridization.

It's a question of morals mainly. Most crosses get marketed as purebreds and as a direct result some species are 'mutts'. Look through the forums you'll find it comes up often.

I'm personally against them as they're usually just an attempt at getting more bang for your buck. Also the more dilute the cross becomes the more it tends to be marketed as pure, which leads to much hostility on message boards and tumult in the lives of those who like their strains of animals separate. There's also no way to guarantee that whoever you sell it to will 'do the right thing'. It's a sticky situation with no good answer. Sure some hybrids are pretty, but are they worth it in the long run?

For example I want absolutely NOTHING to do with Colombian blood in my Nicaragua boas.

I haven't been able to figure out why it's a bad thing. Like a PP said, it's not as if these animals are going to be released into the wild. We crossbreed species all the time...I don't see anyone complaining about mules!

I personally think that most hybrids are stunning. I may well consider making some myself. I'm very interested in seeing if some of the morph genes found in ball pythons can still be expressed when hybridized.

I love them. You can get the traits of 2 species in one snake. They look really cool and most are really unique. Some even happen in nature unlike some mutations we breed for. Just my 2 cents.

Lots of people do hybrids..not my thing but I have seen many of them and think they are beautiful.

I dont personaly see the hybrids as anything more "wrong" than breeding for genetic mutations. Well I retract part of that statement...... I know a Genius(sadly enough works with the local zoo) trying to cross different members of the rattlesnake family. Dont beleive anything venomous should be crossed cause who knows what the hell kind of toxin you will end up with... could get scary just my $0.02

Thanks Guys,

As far as the mutt issue, what is the difference in people buying these ridiculously expensive dogs, like puggles, who are mutts. Now in doing my research I have heard of people crossing ball pythons with carpet pythons and that is a bit odd for me as you are taking an arboreal species and mixing it with a burrowing species, what kind of habitat do you create for that? That's why carpondros work because both GTPs and Carpets are arboreal and they have been known to cross in the wild.

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Originally Posted by reptilebrett

thanks guys for the input, from what i gathered most of everyone is cool with it as long as it is with the right intentions, mainly i just wanted to try to make something different than the norm.

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No that's not really correct, I personally think that it is an abomination that should never be done as it does nothing but pollute the gene pool. I think that many people who believe as I do tend to shy away from discussions such as this because they can quickly devolve into a flamefest.

It's also not really correct to call them mutts... Dogs are all the same species no matter what breed they are, the offspring of a poodle bred to a beagle would be a mutt because they are no longer a pure breed but they are still 100% Canis familiaris In a similar way breeding a Surinam boa to a Columbian boa would produce mutts. The offspring are no longer pure bred even though they are still 100% Boa constrictors. Hybrids are a cross between different species.

Also, could somebody actually supply PROOF that carpet pythons and Green tree pythons have naturally crossed in the wild? I've heard conjecture that it COULD happen because they share some of the same range, I've never heard proof of it ACTUALLY happening.

In order for hybrids to pollute the gene pool, there has to be an unpolluted gene pool to start with. Selective breeding, morph breeding, and mingling of localities ensures that for most species, that simply isn't the case. What's a few more aberrant traits on top of all that? They're pets, not wild animals. They're not pure.

i know of one guy who got burned by someone selling some f2 carpet x macklotts as a new carpet morph. you'd never know by looking at them unless you do scale counts or really know your pythons... there is also one very well known european breeder who had a 'new morph' on his site that were clearly a hybrid, probably f2 liasis or antaresia x morelia.

anyway, just a couple examples... but i think when it comes to australian animals, they are a disgrace and promote bad genetics in our very limited genetic pools.

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

but i think when it comes to australian animals, they are a disgrace and promote bad genetics in our very limited genetic pools.

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My thoughts exactley...

interesting that people have such a harsh look a it, what's the difference between that and cross breeding dogs, why is that more socially acceptable, just curious.

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Originally Posted by reptilebrett

interesting that people have such a harsh look a it, what's the difference between that and cross breeding dogs, why is that more socially acceptable, just curious.

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I'm not against it, but I'll answer.

A labrador and a poodle are different breeds of the same species. A carpet python and a green tree python are different species- like breeding a lion to a tiger or a horse to a zebra (or a horse to a donkey, but mules seem to be pretty socially accepted)

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Originally Posted by reptilebrett

interesting that people have such a harsh look a it, what's the difference between that and cross breeding dogs, why is that more socially acceptable, just curious.

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Most people think cross breeding dogs is horrible as well :). I am one of them. They shorten the dogs life and make for VERY expensive vet bills early in life. There was actually just an article about it in one of the hunting magazines I read.

personally, I love hybrids. They are some of the most visually interesting animals I've ever seen. I would love to own some at some point.

If i ever bred any hybrids, I'd microchip them if i could (i know there are issues associated with microchipping small snakes, etc). Or just do F1 and F2 generations to KEEP the animals looking like hybrids. My biggest fear with them is someone taking a hybrid and marketing it as the newest (x snake species) morph and sensationalizing it.

It would be so easy if they had ears like cats and we could just tip the ear like they do with TNR programs lol.

Would a tattoo ID be effective on a snake?

wow i just googled carpondro's and their colors are unreal!!!!!!