i got a Q for the pros that have an account on here!!!???!!!?!!

ok so in a thread this came up...

i need to know how many genes does a killer bee have

in this thread i said it has 3 genes and the killer queen has 4.. becuase other people on this forum have told me that to be true... and people on youtube have said the same thing... but a couple people on this thread disagree with me on this.. so i want to know from the pros what you think...

i said the killer bee has 3 genes cuzz it has 2 pastel genes and one spider gene.. but these other people say that the super pastel is one gene and the pastel gene is one gene.. but if the pastel gene is one and you have 2 of them to make a super pastel then the super pastel should be 2 genes!

please help me out and shine some light on this! thanks!!!! :gj:

In my mind it has 2 gene's, Pastel and spider. You wouldn't call a Pied a two gene animal or a Super Pastel a two gene animal. A killer Bee simply has two copys of the same gene that's all..

looks like your question got answered on the other thread. . . killer bee 1 spider(het) 1 pastel (homo)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

In my mind it has 2 gene's, Pastel and spider. You wouldn't call a Pied a two gene animal or a Super Pastel a two gene animal. A killer Bee simply has two copys of the same gene that's all..

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well why is a spider gene considerd to be one and the pastel gene not.. this is confusing.. dang i thought i had all this gene stuff finaly down... lol guess not..

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Originally Posted by Toronto Python Gurus

looks like your question got answered on the other thread. . . killer bee 1 spider(het) 1 pastel (homo)

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and no it didn't lol.. the reason why i ask is cuzz everyone is telling me something diff.. so on the othere thread who should i believe the poeple on that thread or the people i talked to in the past about the same subject.. the last thread brought up the question....

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

well why is a spider gene considerd to be one and the pastel gene not.. this is confusing.. dang i thought i had all this gene stuff finaly down... lol guess not..

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they are both 1

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

well why is a spider gene considerd to be one and the pastel gene not.. this is confusing.. dang i thought i had all this gene stuff finaly down... lol guess not..

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It is 1 + 1 = 2... Spider plus Pastel (no matter how many copies) = 2

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Originally Posted by Toronto Python Gurus

they are both 1

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well then how can the super pastel only have 1 gene????? that makes no sence at all. .if it takes 2 pastel genes which is both one gene ... 1+1=2 LOL...

i really don't get that at all..

2 genes

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

and no it didn't lol.. the reason why i ask is cuzz everyone is telling me something diff.. so on the othere thread who should i believe the poeple on that thread or the people i talked to in the past about the same subject.. the last thread brought up the question....

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quoted from turbo serpant in stinglessbee thread post 12 right after yours

"Killer bee is 2 genes. 1 heterozygous (spider) and 1 homozygous (super pastel).
Killer Queen is 3 genes. 2 heterozygous (lesser and spider) and 1 homozygous (super pastel)

A 3 gene animal is worth more, let alone the 3 genes. The more expensive the genes in the combo the more expensive the combo.

The Killer Clown is selling for 25k that is only a 2 gene animal... It all depends on the genes involved and how many are available on the market."

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

well then how can the super pastel only have 1 gene????? that makes no sence at all. .if it takes 2 pastel genes which is both one gene ... 1+1=2 LOL...

i really don't get that at all..

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pastel is the het form
super pastel is the homo form of pastel
still just 1 pastel

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Originally Posted by Toronto Python Gurus

pastel is the het form
super pastel is the homo form of pastel
still just 1 pastel

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i understand that lol.. i just don't see how you can have 2 of something and call it one... is it the same with the super lesser.. (BEL) ... would that only be one gene even though it took 2 to make it..

I agree it is confusing. Personally, I would count it as 3 genes, the same way a person that has 2 BPs and one corn has 3 snakes. You don't say they have only 2 snakes just because 2 of them are the same kind.

But, for whatever reason, that isn't the way the BP community does it. They count the killer bee as 2 genes because it has 2 different types of genes. I guess this is because of breeding potential. A killer bee can only pass on 2 genes to its offspring; it can't pass on both copies of the pastel gene.

On the flip side, if you think of how easy it is to produce a snake, having 2 copies of the same gene does make it more difficult to produce, so in that way it would make sense to call a killer bee a 3 gene snake.

Regardless of what makes sense to you or me, just learn to count the different types of genes so you'll be speaking the same language as every one else.

The reason super Pastel is only one gene is because even in a super pastel that's the only gene present..there are simply two copys of it.. think of it like if you have two bags of red marbles and you pour them into one bag you still only have one type of marble, Red. No matter how many are in the bag there is still only one kind. The bag may be bigger and look different but inside you still only have red marbles. By combining you don't get two different types of marbles you simply get more of them in one place..

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

well why is a spider gene considerd to be one and the pastel gene not.. this is confusing.. dang i thought i had all this gene stuff finaly down... lol guess not..

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if I think About what you think let try explain it to You. You can have spider with 2 copy of Spider gene Super form of Spider problem is There is no visible traits in that mutation. (OK maybe after 10 years of breeding this spider to normal and get all spiders for 10 y straight you can tel that you have homozygous form of Spider but without dna test I'll not count on that.) This Mutation we cal Dominant. In Pastel case homozygous for cause change in appearance of Animal. Is stil the same gene but in homozygous form. In Case When Homozygous for is different in appearance that regular (het) we call that mutation Co-Dominant. in Recessive genes History is "almost" the same. We call it recessive because there is no way to tell from look of that animal that it carry the gene (look like wild natural form of that specie). So Super Pastel carry only one gene but in it Homozygous form.

That Give us Killer Bee 2 gene Animal. (homozygous pastel x spider)

Hope that helps.

PS. If i mess up something please correct me Guys!!!

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Originally Posted by kc261

I agree it is confusing. Personally, I would count it as 3 genes, the same way a person that has 2 BPs and one corn has 3 snakes. You don't say they have only 2 snakes just because 2 of them are the same kind.

But, for whatever reason, that isn't the way the BP community does it. They count the killer bee as 2 genes because it has 2 different types of genes. I guess this is because of breeding potential. A killer bee can only pass on 2 genes to its offspring; it can't pass on both copies of the pastel gene.

On the flip side, if you think of how easy it is to produce a snake, having 2 copies of the same gene does make it more difficult to produce, so in that way it would make sense to call a killer bee a 3 gene snake.

Regardless of what makes sense to you or me, just learn to count the different types of genes so you'll be speaking the same language as every one else.

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THANK YOU DUDE!! .. finaly somebody who sees what i am trying to say!... and i guess the way you put it makes sense.. i think ill have to do that and just say it is that way even though it makes no sense and still think the super pastel is 2 genes.. but i guess i can kind of see why they say it is one.. i didn't even think about the killer bee not being able to give both pastel genes to its offspring.. i knew it couldn't but i didn't think of that being the reason why everyone is saying it is one...

if that makes any sense lol

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

i understand that lol.. i just don't see how you can have 2 of something and call it one... is it the same with the super lesser.. (BEL) ... would that only be one gene even though it took 2 to make it..

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so would a clown be two since it takes two hets to make it????
think of it as pastel being a het super pastel

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The reason super Pastel is only one gene is because even in a super pastel that's the only gene present..there are simply two copys of it.. think of it like if you have two bags of red marbles and you pour them into one bag you still only have one type of marble, Red. No matter how many are in the bag there is still only one kind. The bag may be bigger and look different but inside you still only have red marbles. By combining you don't get two different types of marbles you simply get more of them in one place..

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ok that makes more sense as well i didn't think of it that way...

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Originally Posted by Toronto Python Gurus

so would a clown be two since it takes two hets to make it????
think of it as pastel being a het super pastel

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ha well honeslty dude be4 this convo i would have said a het is one gene and the 2 hets combind to make the gene visual would be 2 genes.. so i would say a clown would be 2 genes.. but that was be4 this convo lol

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Originally Posted by Andrew24

ha well honeslty dude be4 this convo i would have said a het is one gene and the 2 hets combind to make the gene visual would be 2 genes.. so i would say a clown would be 2 genes.. but that was be4 this convo lol

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lol well glad we sorted you out then:gj:

If you wanted to get technical, I don't think any of us know offhand how many genes a snake has--but the number is probably over 30,000.

Baby snakes are created from 2 sets of genes. One set comes from the mother, and the other from the father. Reproductive cells (eggs and sperm) have only half the number of genes needed to make an animal. One set of chromosomes. Each cell of your body contains 2 complete sets of chromosomes.

When we talk about which genes our snakes have, we're actually talking about mutations in single genes. A heterozygous animal has one mutant gene that keys for one very specific thing (from one parent), and one normal gene (from the other parent). A homozygous animal has 2 mutant genes that key for one very specific thing (both parents contributed the same mutant gene).

What the animal actually looks like has to do with whether or not the genes are 'expressed'--in other words, whether the snake's body is affected by the mutant gene. Co-dominant mutant genes are expressed when only one copy is present. Recessive genes are not expressed when only one copy is present. This is because the normal gene is a dominant gene, so it is expressed instead of the mutant gene in animals that are het for a recessive trait.

Now, if your question were, 'how many total mutant genes does a killerbee have?', the answer would be '3'. If the question is 'how many different mutant genes does a killerbee have?', then the answer is '2'.

I say a killer bee is a 3 gene animal, killer queen 4. I count super forms as 2 gene, recessives I count as 1.

Many may not agree and have their opinons but thats just how I do it.

Everybody has their own opinion, and method for this. This entire thread was spurred from the StingerlessBee thread where the price was debated. I simply stated that a Stingerless bee was more because it had more genes and breeding potential, than a killer bee which was Andrew's equivalent. I said this because he said it has 3 genes also and thus the stingerless bee should be cheaper than my 'guess' to the price.

Didn't know this was such a hot topic. :8:

Without reading all the post above, the Killer Bee is two separate mutations in one animal.

Some will call it a 3 gene snake because they are counting the number of mutated chromisomes, 2 pastel, 1 spider.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Without reading all the post above, the Killer Bee is two separate mutations in one animal.

Some will call it a 3 gene snake because they are counting the number of mutated chromisomes, 2 pastel, 1 spider.

Justin

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I am one of those people Justin. ;)

Super Pastel Ivory = 4 genes

Albino Silver Streak =5 genes

Super Pastel Hypo Power Ball = 6

When describing a mutation, I will say a pastel and a super pastel are both the result of the same mutation, which is correct. This is more aligned with calling both single gene animals, which is not technically correct for either. Basically what you are doing is equating the terms "mutation" and "gene" when you say it like that. At any locus there is always a pair of alleles. You can't really say that a pastel only has one gene because there is always a pair (the mutated pastel allele plus the wild-type allele). Hence the term heterozygous meaning a pairing of unequal alleles. So I would say it is incorrect to say that any animal has an odd number of genes. If you have a killerbee, you have three mutant genes at two different alleles. I would only call this two mutations though because two of the mutated genes are homozygous.

The significance of this is somewhat masked, and someone may counter with a statement along the lines of, "What does it matter if the heterozygous alleles are different? There is only one mutated gene that matters in the pair as far as the phenotypic expression of something different than the wild-type." I would counter by stating that even though in many mutations that is the case, it is very possible to have two different mutated alleles at the same locus. This is where it may get problematic if you start saying things only have one gene as opposed to a pair. Take for instance a mojave x lesser BEL (technically heterozygous, even though both alleles are mutated). You could do one of two things with this example if you were to try to describe it in terms of genes like with the other mutations. The first would be since it is essentially equal to a homozygous lesser you could say it is one gene. But wait, that's not right at all, clearly there are two genes at work. But wait, that can't be quite right either because if you can't reproduce both genes in the same animal if you paired it with the wild-type in comparison to another you would be calling a two gene animal like a bumblebee. The animal has more breeding power than one of your "single gene animals" but less than one of your "two gene animals." In the comparisons that were trying to be made with the pricing based on this gene numbering method in the other thread, it wouldn't work to call such a mutation either. The only way to really say it correctly is that it has two different mutant alleles at the same locus.

Anyway, I'll probably lose some people with those examples, but the point I really want to make here is that calling any mutation a "[x number] gene animal" is not really the best way to go about it because it either fails to describe what is really going on, or describes it incorrectly. Anyway, it's late, and I could have probably explained this a lot better if it weren't, but I just wanted to give everyone who cares to read some food for thought on the subject.

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Originally Posted by FIREball

I say a killer bee is a 3 gene animal, killer queen 4. I count super forms as 2 gene, recessives I count as 1.

Many may not agree and have their opinons but thats just how I do it.

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but look at it this way, a het ivory is a yellow belly so would an ivory have two genes? if your counting say a clown as 1 then you should for co-doms too. Recessive or co-dom you still have het and homo forms

READ THIS

No one is using the term gene correctly here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

READ THIS

No one is using the term gene correctly here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene

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Wikipedia is never a reliable source for anything sine anyone can go in and edit the posts.

Go open a basic high school biology book then, but that article is very accurate.

And the argument of wikipedia not being reliable is hooey. It's been reviewed many times over and, especially recently, found to have a higher rate of accuracy than any major encyclopedia, especially in articles regarding math and science.

And don't forget that wikipedia, some time ago, tightened how editable articles are.

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

I am one of those people Justin. ;)

Super Pastel Ivory = 4 genes

Albino Silver Streak =5 genes

Super Pastel Hypo Power Ball = 6

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I usually am that guy too, Bill. It may not be the most accurate, but it shows how hard it is to make a snake. Pastel Pied may be two morphs but it is as hard as a 3 banger to make. :)

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I usually am that guy too, Bill. It may not be the most accurate, but it shows how hard it is to make a snake. Pastel Pied may be two morphs but it is as hard as a 3 banger to make. :)

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In the end it is at least -- practical.:gj:

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Go open a basic high school biology book then, but that article is very accurate.

And the argument of wikipedia not being reliable is hooey. It's been reviewed many times over and, especially recently, found to have a higher rate of accuracy than any major encyclopedia, especially in articles regarding math and science.

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I am well aware of the terminology. I was merely stating how I and most others refer to the genetics of these animals. 1 mutation is equivalent to 1 gene