How's the BP Market Now?

It seems to me after searching forums and talking with breeders/attendees at shows that BP sales seem to be on the rise.

Think its due to falling prices or maybe increased supply?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on what they think about the BP Market right now and where its possibly heading.

Well it does seem that people are more interested in buying in the last 8 months. What has cause it? Not sure. All I know is that we sold our very limitied supply fairly quickly this year..

I look forward to the 2010 season to see what people's buying trends are like..

I know I've picked this year to pick up some balls. I have sold all my Kings, Corns, Milksnakes and the last of the Geckos. Now I have all this room to fill with some nice Ball Pythons.:banana:

I am a buyer... I have been looking into getting my new one for nearly a year before actually buying one. Then I ended up getting two at once, and do not think I am done yet. The economy in the states is getting slowly better and I feel this helps people feel comfy enough to get pets again. I know it was for me. Prices definately help being lower. When I started looking the morph I wanted was nearly $1000 a couple years ago, and now is down to $600.

I looked at this as a breeder's point of view and others have looked at it from a buyer's point of view. I think if you're a breeder, the market is still decreasing. The values are down and the sales are down.

If you're a buyer, I think there are some deals out there. I know, I'm building my collection and I'm getting some great deals. However, you must look long and hard. You've got to know what you want and don't compromise. I've gotten some great snakes for some really good prices, but that's because I went shopping for a particular snake and I didn't jump on something else, just for the sake of buying a cool snake.

What is amazing me so far this year is the number of ball pythons that are still available this late in the 09 season. There are some crazy cool snakes still out there. A bunch of them. I don't know if this is because people aren't buying or this is an over abundance of snakes. If it's the latter, then the market is going to continue to crash into the 2010 season for the breeders.

Just my opinion,
Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

If you're a buyer, I think there are some deals out there. I know, I'm building my collection and I'm getting some great deals. However, you must look long and hard. You've got to know what you want and don't compromise. I've gotten some great snakes for some really good prices, but that's because I went shopping for a particular snake and I didn't jump on something else, just for the sake of buying a cool snake.



Just my opinion,
Jim Smith

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I agree with that 100%. that's how i'm building mines, until i start breeding for my own collection.

I am done buying for the time being, and for the next few years I'll be focusing on producing some of my first clutches. I am really excited to start breeding. I'm saving up now for more caging and a rack for babies I hope to have down the road. If all goes well I hope to have some pastels, spiders, normals, and bumblebees, I just hope their will still be a market for these in a few years. I've invested a lot of money into my animals, and I don't plan on making it all back. Breeding will probably end up costing me more than I'll make, but I don't really mind as long as I find good homes for my babies.

There may be more buyers now than before, but there are a ton of new breeders each year. Simple supply and demand shows why the market is going down. Before long, morphs will not be worth hardly anything. Look at corn snake morph prices...

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

There may be more buyers now than before, but there are a ton of new breeders each year. Simple supply and demand shows why the market is going down. Before long, morphs will not be worth hardly anything. Look at corn snake morph prices...

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And yet there's still some corn snake morphs that go for $1000+ ... those longshot combos will always be worth more.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Before long, morphs will not be worth hardly anything. Look at corn snake morph prices...

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I feel there is a flaw in that logic.

corn snakes can produce what, 25+ eggs in a clutch? AND double clutch? BPs have like 16 eggs at the absolute max with 4-8 being more normal, and there is no double clutching. Most of the morphs in corns are also simple recessive, with BPs you get a mix of simple recessive, codom and dom traits.

Sure everyone and their mom can breed a mojo to 9 normal girls and get a bunch of mojaves, but the future of the market and the hobby is in selective breeding. There will ALWAYS be people willing to hunt for the perfect example of a morph and pay top dollar for it because its exactly what they want.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

Sure everyone and their mom can breed a mojo to 9 normal girls and get a bunch of mojaves, but the future of the market and the hobby is in selective breeding. There will ALWAYS be people willing to hunt for the perfect example of a morph and pay top dollar for it because its exactly what they want.

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Like the ones that people try to sell for $20,000 :O

I wish i could afford that lol

I am looking at it from both sides. As a buyer, things are "better" because morphs are getting cheaper. When I first got into ball pythons (a little over 2 years ago), an albino male was $1000 for a nice one. Now, you can get a nice albino male for around $400. That's $600 less in less than 3 years! That is awesome since I want to get more morphs soon.

As a seller (hopefully this will be my first season that I am actually going to be selling hatchlings), this is bad because I will be lucky if I sell any snakes I produce this season, especially since I am not a breeder that is well known (I'm not known at all really). :rolleyes: And I won't be able to sell the hatchlings for very much. When I purchased my male spider, he was $300. If I produce any male spiders this season, I can really only sell them for $200 or so. Prices keep going down.

I have never been more confident in the market as a whole than I am right now.

We all know, morph prices are a race to the bottom. With so many new breeders every year,we can expect prices to remain in a downward spiral.
Just as in any pyramid scheme the guys at the top make the money. Like NERD, RDR, TSK VPI ....ect. Why buy from a small breeder when there are so many reputable big breeders to choose from? Only one reason comes to mind...lower prices, duh.

However there is money to be made,(sell the idea of making money breeding ball pythons) just don't expect to get rich.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

I feel there is a flaw in that logic.

corn snakes can produce what, 25+ eggs in a clutch? AND double clutch? BPs have like 16 eggs at the absolute max with 4-8 being more normal, and there is no double clutching. Most of the morphs in corns are also simple recessive, with BPs you get a mix of simple recessive, codom and dom traits.

Sure everyone and their mom can breed a mojo to 9 normal girls and get a bunch of mojaves, but the future of the market and the hobby is in selective breeding. There will ALWAYS be people willing to hunt for the perfect example of a morph and pay top dollar for it because its exactly what they want.

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I agree with Eddie completely. Sure they can't double clutch, and sure the average is 6 eggs. But consider this. NERD is going to have what, 500 clutches? BHB is going to have about the same or more? How about TSK? What about RDR? How many are going to be imported? How many more are going to be produced by small breeders? Is 10,000 clutches a conservative estimate for the total number of clutches that are going to be produced by all the breeders out there right now? At an average of 6 eggs that's what, 60,000 snakes? How many of those are going to be single gene co-doms, how many are going to be hets, poss hets, etc. They have to go somewhere, like the hands of the person who just googled snake and found ball python morphs. Now they want to breed to get a sewper k00lz bumblebeez ball python. More bees on the market, more pastels and spiders on the market...it doesnt stop.

This time last year, a super pastel was like $800. Im pretty sure you can find one for about $400 now.

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Originally Posted by Dave763

We all know, morph prices are a race to the bottom. With so many new breeders every year,we can expect prices to remain in a downward spiral.
Just as in any pyramid scheme the guys at the top make the money. Like NERD, RDR, TSK VPI ....ect. Why buy from a small breeder when there are so many reputable big breeders to choose from? Only one reason comes to mind...lower prices, duh.

However there is money to be made,(sell the idea of making money breeding ball pythons) just don't expect to get rich.

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True.

Just gotta do it for the love of the animals above all else.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

True.

Just gotta do it for the love of the animals above all else.

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Exactly. :gj: If I make enough to buy rat food, I'm good with that.:D

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Originally Posted by Dave763

Exactly. :gj: If I make enough to buy rat food, I'm good with that.:D

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If I make something that makes my jaw drop, Im good with that.

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Originally Posted by Dave763

Exactly. :gj: If I make enough to buy rat food, I'm good with that.:D

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X2:gj:

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Originally Posted by Dave763

We all know, morph prices are a race to the bottom. With so many new breeders every year,we can expect prices to remain in a downward spiral.
Just as in any pyramid scheme the guys at the top make the money. Like NERD, RDR, TSK VPI ....ect. Why buy from a small breeder when there are so many reputable big breeders to choose from? Only one reason comes to mind...lower prices, duh.

However there is money to be made,(sell the idea of making money breeding ball pythons) just don't expect to get rich.

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Plus, pending laws,15 plus million americans out of work and forclosures reaching astounding proportions doesn't help matters either..:salute:

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I agree with Eddie completely. Sure they can't double clutch, and sure the average is 6 eggs. But consider this. NERD is going to have what, 500 clutches? BHB is going to have about the same or more? How about TSK? What about RDR? How many are going to be imported? How many more are going to be produced by small breeders? Is 10,000 clutches a conservative estimate for the total number of clutches that are going to be produced by all the breeders out there right now? At an average of 6 eggs that's what, 60,000 snakes? How many of those are going to be single gene co-doms, how many are going to be hets, poss hets, etc. They have to go somewhere, like the hands of the person who just googled snake and found ball python morphs. Now they want to breed to get a sewper k00lz bumblebeez ball python. More bees on the market, more pastels and spiders on the market...it doesnt stop.

This time last year, a super pastel was like $800. Im pretty sure you can find one for about $400 now.

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but in theory the big guys arent spending their time breeding 3 pastel males to 30 normal females. Everything Ive read, heard, seen, etc they are striving to cut down on their normal production.

The top guys are where they are because they are absolutely dedicated in furthering the hobby. They are on the forefront of the creation of new morphs.

YES there probably are a ton of people hopping on the BP bandwagon.

Do i have a pastel male and a spider female? yes. Am i hoping to produce bumblebees this year or next? Yes, and its not because breeding bees is some gigantic cash cow in my mind.

I think the market is in a great place. The prices on morphs have dropped enough to put them into the average pet owners home. People that have no plans to breed snakes, they just want a pretty one as a pet. This should make people ecstatic. The possibilities in the market that open up because of this are almost endless. Reptiles are growing in popularity. I go to the local reptile show every month and you'd be surprised how many people who go don't even like snakes, they just want to see them. Its fascinating.

And for that 400 dollar super pastel. How nice of a super was it? The ones ive seen for that price you couldnt PAY me to take. :/

"Investing" in Ball Pythons... It all comes down to one thing... quote me,

"You can't treat it like a hobby and make money like its a business."

All businesses will survive or fail based on things like buisness plan, critical key investments, marketing, blood and sweat, risk mitigation, customer service and #1... PASSION!

The big thing that many have wrong in this industry is the idea that anyone can put too snakes together and money will just start rolling in. Ball Python breeding is not a magic business, its a normal business.

For those who really make a go of it, I think there is more promise than ever in the pet reptile business.

Justin

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

I think the market is in a great place. The prices on morphs have dropped enough to put them into the average pet owners home. People that have no plans to breed snakes, they just want a pretty one as a pet. This should make people ecstatic. The possibilities in the market that open up because of this are almost endless. Reptiles are growing in popularity. I go to the local reptile show every month and you'd be surprised how many people who go don't even like snakes, they just want to see them. Its fascinating.

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I am one of those who personally dont care if I breed mine or not, I am collecting to collect. I love Axanthic and many of the morphs with this, I would love to see more combos or pimp mine just for first pick of the off spring. :) I just got a VPI Axanthic male and a het female literally today, and hopefully get a chance to go to the Cleveland show to check out more.

As for the ones oing for $5,000 or more... like the female Axanthic KillerBee I saw go for 10k is not something in my range ever to pay. So being a buyer not a breeder, I am happy for the little guys that are willing to make deals, and work with having buyers be able to afford the beauty morph of their dreams. :) TY to the little breeders ( That care about the snakes more than the money) you make us normal working BP lovers be able to have a dream.

I agree with you that it can be a business, but definately one for people who love BP's and not the cash. There is so much to invest in for good quality offspring, and time to make sure that you have healthy little guys for a good rep. It is a labor of love and not a cash cow project.

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

"Investing" in Ball Pythons... It all comes down to one thing... quote me,

"You can't treat it like a hobby and make money like its a business."

All businesses will survive or fail based on things like buisness plan, critical key investments, marketing, blood and sweat, risk mitigation, customer service and #1... PASSION!

The big thing that many have wrong in this industry is the idea that anyone can put too snakes together and money will just start rolling in. Ball Python breeding is not a magic business, its a normal business.

For those who really make a go of it, I think there is more promise than ever in the pet reptile business.

Justin

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Originally Posted by dnnsfam

I agree with you that it can be a business, but definately one for people who love BP's and not the cash. There is so much to invest in for good quality offspring, and time to make sure that you have healthy little guys for a good rep.

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Great Points. Nobody who loves money more than the animals should be producing living creatures for a living.

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Originally Posted by dnnsfam

It is a labor of love and not a cash cow project.

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With good management it can be and is both of these things.

I hope I never lose my love for reptiles, but I have to tell you how I approach this subject.

I collect reptiles, I run a small business to help support my collection. Kind of like the little old ladies that sell their apple pies. They don't sell the apple pies to just make money, they do it so they have a little more money to bake a few more pies.

That's me, I sell a few snakes so that I can further my collection.
Jim Smith