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the serial killer whale
wow, did anybody see this yet, a woman killed by a trained whale, come to find out the whale is responsible to 2 more events, kinda spooky the friendly whales, oh well the HSUS is acting like there damn whale humitary expets as well, i guess sea world will be the newest crusade now. any imput??
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Re: the serial killer whale
Well as much as I loved the show at Seaworld and as much as I'd love to work at a place like that I can't help but wonder....
Orcas are animals that travel long distances. I can't say I'm surprised at the animal's behavior. You see the size of those orcas and the size of their tanks and it suddenly seems very small to me. They said the orcas were acting strangely and so they left them alone. Zooming around the tank sounds like the orcas were stressed out about something. For all we know, they are stressed with the size of their enclosure, the hundreds of people that watch them everyday, diet, etc.
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Re: the serial killer whale
I think the whole thing reminds me of hypes when people get killed by snakes.
It only happens once in a great while, and on the other hand dogs kill people about once a week. (I do have that statistic if anyone wants it).
But it was unintelligent move on the trainer and the park owners; since this animal has been involved in multiple deaths of other people, it should not be used to show, at all.
P.S. They're wild animals just like lions, tigers, and large constrictors, and should be treated as such and with the same respect. That's an important understanding of all keepers and trainers.
P.S.S. Orcas are not whales. Kinda bugs me. It's like calling a boa a python. Orcas are the largest species of the dolphin family.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcrystal22
I think the whole thing reminds me of hypes when people get killed by snakes.
It only happens once in a great while, and on the other hand dogs kill people about once a week. (I do have that statistic if anyone wants it).
But it was unintelligent move on the trainer and the park owners; since this animal has been involved in multiple deaths of other people, it should not be used to show, at all.
P.S. They're wild animals just like lions, tigers, and large constrictors, and should be treated as such and with the same respect. That's an important understanding of all keepers and trainers.
P.S.S. Orcas are not whales. Kinda bugs me. It's like calling a boa a python. Orcas are the largest species of the dolphin family.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Orcas are dolphins, not whales! Orcas were my favorite animal as a child. I used to want to be a trainer, but then developed a fear of deep water. :rolleyes:
One of the deaths associated with this animal is not necessarily the whale's fault. A homeless man was in the park after hours and may have simply drowned in the tank.
I am in agreement that this orca should not be used for show, especially since the trainers knew there was something wrong. I'm sorry but an animal that is acting stressed out, not responding to commands, etc should not be put in the show. Maybe the animal was just having an off day. The trainers should have recognized the animal's behavior as abnormal and left him/her alone. Its kind of like looking at a lion that's acting weird and saying "Looks like something is wrong with Leo. Oh well, lets make him do tricks anyway." and then the lion turns around and mauls the trainer. Simple animal behavior logic.
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Re: the serial killer whale
What also drives me nuts is people look at orcas and dolphins and all they see is Willy (from Free Willy) and Flipper who are fun-loving, affectionate, and tame as puppies. In reality these animals are wild predators. There are instances of dolphins killing porpoises and leaving the bodies and killing baby dolphins as well. There are videos of this and it shows you just how powerful and aggressive (even deadly) these animals CAN be. They are not puppies and kitties. They are large, wild, predators. This is to be expected and respected, yet people are so shocked when something like this happens.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Orcas are undoubtedly on the short list of sentient species on the planet, and it certainly isn't any surprise to ME that they can calculate violence, plan for the future, and seek revenge. It's been documented often enough now.
Orcas don't eat humans. They break their backs, or simply drown them. It's not predatory behavior, it's homicide. I don't blame them, of course, certainly humans, chimps, gorillas, and other sentient beings may do the same.
I recollect a pair of orcas that had a calf--the calf fell ill, and was removed for treatment, but it died. The orcas vocalized in ways that had not been recorded previously, until one day, they cooperated to break their trainer's back. The trainer lived, but of course did not return.
The odd vocalizations stopped, and the orcas returned to their normal behavior. The incident was labeled an accident, but really? One orca carried the trainer on his back, and the other breached over him, smashing the trainer into the water, but barely brushing the other orca's back. That's a precision move, and it was a very coordinated one, too.
Who can blame them? Their calf was taken away by humans, and they never saw it again. Very nice work, though, to not only exact revenge, but to make it look like an accident. If people are going to work with a creature that weighs over 10,000 pounds and has the mental capacity of, at minimum, a 5 year old human, one has to expect such things.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Anyone up for Orca Burgers? No, I'm sorry, just kidding. It is a shame the trainer was killed.
Jim Smith
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Re: the serial killer whale
It is a very sad story. Yet another good reason why orcas shouldn't be kept in captivity!
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Re: the serial killer whale
I say this everytime....If you are going to work with ANY type of animal...especially wild animals....there is a chance that it can bite. EVERYTHING has the opportunity to bite or inflict harm. It is their only self defense in many cases. This includes us as well. This includes something as small as a flea or a cricket.
You have to look for signs and you have to have the ability to properly take care of them. But then again you all know this. :rolleyes:
I hate when any animal, reptile, bug...etc gets a bad rap for protecting themselves the only way they know how. Or does something that should was out of the ordinary when their keeper should of recognized the signs.
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Re: the serial killer whale
This is a very sad story and my heart goes out to the trainers family and friends.
Their is a reason they are called Killer whales. If you have ever seen footage of them in the wild they can be extremely aggressive. I have seen footage of then bashing and throwing seals around like a cat pouncing and torturing a mouse for long periods before actually eating them. Seeing them perform at Sea World it is easy to forget they are predators and smart ones at that. I enjoy Sea World and the animal shows and all that but at the end of the day they are massive predators that come with potential dangers. Like lions and tigers you can train them to do shows but they are not domestic animals and something could trigger their predatory behaviors. From what I read no one was allowed in the water with this guy because of his past aggressive behavior. Unfortunately I dont think anyone expected he would leap out of the water and grab someone but thats actually what they do to seals and thus earning them their name as killer.
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Re: the serial killer whale
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Re: the serial killer whale
Why would they NOT think he would grab someone? He did it before. It boggles the understanding why they would allow people near an orca that had publicly helped to grab and drown one person, and then been found later with another guy's corpse.
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Re: the serial killer whale
yea, i agree with, it shouldn't be used, the bum coulda been n accident but the first attack in the orginal tank was like this. also agree it happens once in a blue moon, though i'd rather tangle with a 12 foot burm, than a 20 foot 2 ton dolphin. it scares me for a dumb readon, ever since i went to see world and as kid and saw the 1970s movie, orcas spook me. just looking at them in pics spook me, sounds dumb but yea
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Re: the serial killer whale
They plan to continue using him in shows, from what I heard on the news last evening.
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Re: the serial killer whale
The bottom line is that the orca is a wild animal. No matter how "tame" they think it is, its still going to do what it wants. Just like our herps. If the orca gets blamed for this i think i'll lose it.
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Re: the serial killer whale
I equate what happened to us getting tagged by our snakes every now and then. It's an inherent risk brought on when working with wild animals. Unfortunately a 10k lb whale inflicts more damage than a 2k gram snake does.
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Re: the serial killer whale
people forget that Orcas are at the TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN in the ocean.
you think a great white shark is the big dawg? pffft. Orcas are worse.
allow me to compare:
Great White sharks range between 15-18 feet long and weigh 5-7 tons. anything bigger than that is an abnormality.
an adult killer whale can range from 18-22 feet long and weigh 8-12 TONS!
just in size the killer whale has the advantage.
plus, they hunt in pods of 10-50 individuals. imagine if great whites hunted like that.
Also, the top speed in a great white is about 22 miles per hour, especially when they swim to the surface and breach it in order to hunt seals and the like.
the Orca's TOP SPEED is 35 miles per hour!!!!!! jeez, their cruising speed is around 20!
they are the TOP PREDATORS in the sea. they can prey on anyone they want, and no one preys on them (except humans on whaling boats...that's just wrong)
now i've seen these shows and i've enjoyed them as much as the next person. but it's only when these things happen that you can truly realize the risk that these trainers face when training and displaying these animals. they're HUGE! so its a wake up call every time something like this happens that shows that animals like this should not be kept in captivity just so somebody can get rich. as far as i'm concerned, the blood of the dead trainer is on the hands of the owners of the park for keepin that animal enclosed for their own purposes.
but then again, this is just my opinion. and they say opinions are like bu**holes, everybody has one and they all stink..
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Re: the serial killer whale
It is inhumane for an animal that size to be kept in a tank. They do become neurotic. And anyone that works with a several ton animal that is kept in conditions that can easily lead to neurotic behavior should be well aware of the possible consequences. I feel terrible for the trainer, her family, and the audience that had to see this. However, it wa bound to happen. Sadly,it will happen again since apparently Sea World has too much money invested in this animal. This is why zoos, aquariums, theme parks, etc. that use animals as attractions but do not provide adequate habitats for them should be boycotted.
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Re: the serial killer whale
lol you can tell were all animal lovers, and understand the real deal, cause the gossip around campus and family is that awful whale, its just a bad orca, the should get another one. lol its said, but nothing to change it, yea puttn a 25 animal in tank is awful,
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Re: the serial killer whale
When I was 13 and lived down in Florida, a buddy of mine (who was 17) and I were on a small aluminum bass boat. We were cruising the bayous (I lived on Eglin AFB, right outside of Fort Walton Beach/Destin), looking to do some fishing.
Anyhow, we were out in pretty deep water, getting closer to the gulf. We were probably 2 or 3 turns to the beach. We dropped our lines in and waited. (I honestly would not go in that deep of water, in that big of a body of water in that small of a boat again).
Anyhow, dolphins are always up and down there. Well, one decided to come inspect our 12 ft bass boat. Honestly, the images of Flipper did not come to my mind. This thing was huge, it was terrifying. It looked to be twice the size of our boat (in reality it was probably 18-20 ft, but the water magnified the size a bit as it does).
I was seriously scared. It came up to the boat, started circling it. It was big, it was powerful, and pretty damn scary. They may look cute, fun in a safe environment... but out in the wild, in an unpredictable uncontrolled area... it was one of the scariest moments of my life.
It circled for about 3 minutes, before diving beneath us and disappeared into the depths of the water and away. It didn't act aggressive, it was probably just curious... but the sheer size/power of that thing was incredible. It could have easy toppled that boat in one swift motion.
It was an adrenaline rush for sure lol.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Orcas are undoubtedly on the short list of sentient species on the planet, and it certainly isn't any surprise to ME that they can calculate violence, plan for the future, and seek revenge. It's been documented often enough now.
Orcas don't eat humans. They break their backs, or simply drown them. It's not predatory behavior, it's homicide. I don't blame them, of course, certainly humans, chimps, gorillas, and other sentient beings may do the same.
I recollect a pair of orcas that had a calf--the calf fell ill, and was removed for treatment, but it died. The orcas vocalized in ways that had not been recorded previously, until one day, they cooperated to break their trainer's back. The trainer lived, but of course did not return.
The odd vocalizations stopped, and the orcas returned to their normal behavior. The incident was labeled an accident, but really? One orca carried the trainer on his back, and the other breached over him, smashing the trainer into the water, but barely brushing the other orca's back. That's a precision move, and it was a very coordinated one, too.
Who can blame them? Their calf was taken away by humans, and they never saw it again. Very nice work, though, to not only exact revenge, but to make it look like an accident. If people are going to work with a creature that weighs over 10,000 pounds and has the mental capacity of, at minimum, a 5 year old human, one has to expect such things.
All species of dolphins are currently trying to be proved as sentient to stop the culling of the animals in the Japanese waters. (Which, with sentience, would be considered murder.)
I wholeheartedly agree.
I also think, that because these animals have a sentience that we don't completely understand, keeping them in such a contained area is very difficult on them neurologically.
It's interesting though. Ravens are recorded to be the most 'intelligent' species of animal on the planet besides humans, but they lack the emotional, social, and coordination skills that dolphin species have as well as communication skills. Which makes dolphins sentient while ravens are just intelligent.
People take these species for granted, they really do. I hope that one day things will be better for the captive dolphin species.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Orcas are undoubtedly on the short list of sentient species on the planet, and it certainly isn't any surprise to ME that they can calculate violence, plan for the future, and seek revenge. It's been documented often enough now.
Orcas don't eat humans. They break their backs, or simply drown them. It's not predatory behavior, it's homicide. I don't blame them, of course, certainly humans, chimps, gorillas, and other sentient beings may do the same.
I recollect a pair of orcas that had a calf--the calf fell ill, and was removed for treatment, but it died. The orcas vocalized in ways that had not been recorded previously, until one day, they cooperated to break their trainer's back. The trainer lived, but of course did not return.
The odd vocalizations stopped, and the orcas returned to their normal behavior. The incident was labeled an accident, but really? One orca carried the trainer on his back, and the other breached over him, smashing the trainer into the water, but barely brushing the other orca's back. That's a precision move, and it was a very coordinated one, too.
Who can blame them? Their calf was taken away by humans, and they never saw it again. Very nice work, though, to not only exact revenge, but to make it look like an accident. If people are going to work with a creature that weighs over 10,000 pounds and has the mental capacity of, at minimum, a 5 year old human, one has to expect such things.
This right here is what I was going to say. Orcas are on the very small list of animals which are self aware. They recognize their selves in a mirror, have problem solving intelligence and just operate on a higher level than other animals. Dolphins, chimps, gorillas, elephants, crows and horses have all been proven to be sentient animals on different levels. Most of these have the ability to feel almost every emotion that we do. They learn from experiences. They stress. They plan. They remember and can hold a grudge. Dolphins, elephants and the apes show affection for family members and have been shown to grieve the death of a family member.
Dolphins are also one of the few animals that have been proven to have sex just for fun (not just procreation) and they have been seen killing other dolphins in the ocean.
Imagine how bored they must become when they are in a small tank. I would think that anything that operates on much more than just wild instinct would go nuts over time being contained like that. I love my pets but there are some animals I just wouldnt want to keep in captivity. The sentient ones. Its no different from one of us being in prison. They just dont cope like other animals can.
I do hope the HSUS and other animals rights people dont try to attack the park for this but it should not have happened. The trainers can read those animals. I have seen shows and interviews where they say how they are able to easily read when one of the marine animals is acting differently. Stress, frustration etc.. Maybe they can even pick up on weather changes or other nature related things like some other animals can. Who knows. The one real fact is that Orca should not have been bothered when it was acting differently.
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Re: the serial killer whale
I don't think horses pass the mirror test. The last I heard, the list included the following animals:
Bottlenose Dolphins
Orcas
Chimps
Bonobos
Orangutans
Gorillas
elephants
European magpies
Humans
These are the only species which have passed the test so far. Many other species have not yet been tested. Human children fail the mirror test until they are about 18 months old.
For those who aren't familiar with it, this test is the current standard for evaluating self-awareness. The animal must recognize that the animal in the mirror is actually ITSELF, and not another animal, or just an image, etc. They are given sufficient time to come to this conclusion (after all, a person who has never seen a mirror before might take a while to figure it out, too).
Once they get used to the mirror, their awareness is tested by placing a mark somewhere on their body where they can only see it by looking in the mirror. If the animal acknowledges and touches the mark after seeing it in the mirror, then we know that they understand the image in the mirror is them.
These species are considered sentient--they have a level of consciousness above that of other species--the same level we are on. That doesn't mean they're as smart as we are--just that they're as AWARE as we are. Their inner mental life can be as complex as ours. They aren't up to building space shuttles, but they are capable of making plans for the future and then carrying them out--they can imagine. This is why sentient species are capable of producing art that actually looks like more than a mess.
Now, cetaceans have one of the largest auditory processing centers of any animal. Their brains are huge. We know they're sentient--what we aren't clear on is exactly how smart they are. This is because we haven't figured out how to speak their language. We have managed to pick up a few phrases, but we don't 'get' the whole thing. And it IS language--pods from different areas speak different dialects. The possibilities for why we haven't decoded this yet include some that are rather daunting.
Cetaceans see sounds. Their auditory and visual centers are tied in together. What they see with their eyes is handled the same way in their brain as what they see with their sonar. Can you imagine a language that incorporates this?
Cetacean language may be more complex than human language, even if they are not as as conventionally intelligent as we are.
All of which comes down to just one point--Tilicum meant to kill his trainer. He may have done it out of anger, frustration, etc--but he knew what he was doing, and he most likely even knew that it was wrong. The other orcas were upset by whatever he was saying beforehand--their agitation with his behavior was mentioned.
We would try a human who did this for murder. Tilicum is being treated like a large, dangerous animal. I'm not sure that lack of punishment is an appropriate response for an animal with this kind of intellect, but perhaps that's just me. Yes, he's in a captive situation not of his own choosing, and he deserves some leeway for that, but other orcas don't turn homocidal over it.
At the very least, someone needs to tell him that he was bad. He's more than capable of understanding it.
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Re: the serial killer whale
My wife and I honeymooned in Florida not but a few months ago....
We have pictures from the show of the woman that got killed....
SO weird to think about.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents
This right here is what I was going to say. Orcas are on the very small list of animals which are self aware. They recognize their selves in a mirror, have problem solving intelligence and just operate on a higher level than other animals. Dolphins, chimps, gorillas, elephants, crows and horses have all been proven to be sentient animals on different levels. Most of these have the ability to feel almost every emotion that we do. They learn from experiences. They stress. They plan. They remember and can hold a grudge. Dolphins, elephants and the apes show affection for family members and have been shown to grieve the death of a family member.
Dolphins are also one of the few animals that have been proven to have sex just for fun (not just procreation) and they have been seen killing other dolphins in the ocean.
Imagine how bored they must become when they are in a small tank. I would think that anything that operates on much more than just wild instinct would go nuts over time being contained like that. I love my pets but there are some animals I just wouldnt want to keep in captivity. The sentient ones. Its no different from one of us being in prison. They just dont cope like other animals can.
I do hope the HSUS and other animals rights people dont try to attack the park for this but it should not have happened. The trainers can read those animals. I have seen shows and interviews where they say how they are able to easily read when one of the marine animals is acting differently. Stress, frustration etc.. Maybe they can even pick up on weather changes or other nature related things like some other animals can. Who knows. The one real fact is that Orca should not have been bothered when it was acting differently.
I'm sorry, but after working with horses for years, I find them to be rather unintelligent animals. Pigs are by FAR more intelligent.
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Re: the serial killer whale
I've often wondered if the reason pigs haven't been given the mirror test is because no one wants to open up that can of worms. lol
I'm sure it wouldn't be an easy feeling if it turned out that one of our primary food species was self-aware.
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Re: the serial killer whale
this isn't anything more then the common play an orca will do unfortunately it also drowns the person its playing with had it been an actual attack the lady would have been eaten fortunately the whale will not die which is insane that it was put on the table however as a Marine Biologist student I feel for the girl who passed and pray for her and her family.
Lance
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Orcas are dolphins, not whales! Orcas were my favorite animal as a child. I used to want to be a trainer, but then developed a fear of deep water. :rolleyes:
One of the deaths associated with this animal is not necessarily the whale's fault. A homeless man was in the park after hours and may have simply drowned in the tank.
I am in agreement that this orca should not be used for show, especially since the trainers knew there was something wrong. I'm sorry but an animal that is acting stressed out, not responding to commands, etc should not be put in the show. Maybe the animal was just having an off day. The trainers should have recognized the animal's behavior as abnormal and left him/her alone. Its kind of like looking at a lion that's acting weird and saying "Looks like something is wrong with Leo. Oh well, lets make him do tricks anyway." and then the lion turns around and mauls the trainer. Simple animal behavior logic.
Your analogy is so funny. I couldn't help but laugh. I would have left leo and the orca alone. Any animal that acts weird, even if it is a human being, will be left alone by me. What I am learning from all of this bad publicity of housing wild animals is that some people should not be housing them and people need to think more often about what they do when they house wild animals. Education is the key.
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Re: the serial killer whale
Quote:
Originally Posted by lance
this isn't anything more then the common play an orca will do unfortunately it also drowns the person its playing with had it been an actual attack the lady would have been eaten fortunately the whale will not die which is insane that it was put on the table however as a Marine Biologist student I feel for the girl who passed and pray for her and her family.
Lance
I think you're dramatically underestimating an orca's intelligence. Orcas play with TOYS by dragging them down under the water--they don't play with each other that way, and they don't ordinarily play with humans that way, either. The Orcas kept by Sea World are fish-eating culture orcas--they're not mammal eaters. They were not, at least, crazy enough to try to work with animals that have learned from birth to hunt sea lions and whales. So at no time in this animal's history was he taught to grab living things off of land and drag them under the water.
Orcas tend to be very gentle with humans--they can see how small we are, and they realize we must be fragile, just like a baby orca. This reaction to our mammalian nature, and our relative helplessness in the water, is most likely the reason why dolphins have occasionally rescued drowning people--they push them to the surface the way they would help an ailing dolphin.
What has never ceased to amaze me is why attacks on humans by cetaceans are so rare. I wonder what it is about humans that makes them decide to treat us gently rather than treating us the way they would some other sea mammal.
Tilicum wasn't behaving normally--the agitation of the other animals seems clear enough indication that he wasn't just in a playful mood. This is the behavior of a dolphin trying to harm or kill another dolphin--they will grab it or swim over it, drag it down, and then keep pushing it down to try to drown it. They're perfectly aware that we need air.
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