Feeding, live and learn

Had an interesting day today with my BP.

As I was coming home from work today I stopped in and bought some food for the snakes. When I work out of town I stop on my way back because the closest place for mice/rats is about a 30 minute drive otherwise. Knowing that it wasn't time to feed Thor until Thursday I bought a mouse anyway because keeping 1 isn't a problem.

So I come home with the mouse in a box that's in a tied plastic bag and within a second or two Thor is out of his hide and smelling around the holes in his viv as it was obvious to me he could easily smell it even after being in the room for mere seconds. I thought, well, maybe he is hungry, I'll attempt a quick feed and if he doesn't strike right away I'll just try again later. So I place the box with the mouse in it on top of his viv and by now he is really moving around and active, again telling me that this guy is hungry!

Well, I take the box off of the top of his viv and begin to take his lid off, with him staring directly up patiently awaiting. I take the lid off and he opens his mouth and begins to strike but only moves 1-2 inches as I believe he then realized that I wasn't the mouse. He pulls back in the viv and stares at me as if to say, "Sorry, I thought you were a mouse". I put the mouse in and boom, strike right away and no problem eating the mouse. Problem is the mouse was smaller than usual (another problem living in my area, limited supply mixed with inconsistent size of prey).Soon after eating he continued to look up at the lid of his viv and has kept that pose on and off during the day/evening telling me (or I think he is telling me) that hey I'm still hungry. At this point I begin to think that the lid may still smell like mice so I take it off and clean it up, however, he has still spent much time in his hunting pose.

Long story short (for those skim reading ;)) 2 issues arose today...

1. No more pre-scenting by placing the rodent (in box) on top of the viv as I believe he smelled the mouse and when I took the lid off he saw my heat and began to strike (luckily I believe he realized it wasn't a mouse) but quickly pulled back.

2. I need to keep a closer eye on the size of the mice I receive as from what I can tell the guy is still hungry. He was last fed on Thursday with a 25-30g mouse (he is 225ish) which I thought was a decent sized meal. The mouse toady was likely 15-20g. Should I try small rats or should I begin trying 2 mice? He looked more than willing after eating 1 that he'd like to have another...

Why not order some frozen?? You will always have them ya know.

you can try to get him on rats. mice will also work. I have a normal female ball that weighs 3960 grams and she is a mouse eater. I also breed africian soft furs which are a little larger than mice. she prefers mice over the soft furs. when feeding a snake a live item, be careful and watch the feeding. if the snake grabs the rodent where the rodent can bite the snake, just stick something long in the rodents mouth until it's dead. I use the 18 inch tongs that I feed with.

How often are you feeding your snake? Maybe you mentioned that, but I didn't notice it. If he is about 225g, then you should be feeding him every 5-7 days.

I probably wouldn't go with more than 15% of his body weight at one feeding. Do you have a Petco or Petsmart nearby? They usually sell frozen. That way you could try out a few before putting in a big frozen order online (almost neccessary to buy in bulk to defray shipping costs).

Or, you could buy 4 or 5 mice at once, and freeze them yourself. I think there is a sticky on here somewhere about humanely euthanizing mice with a cooler and some dry ice.

Either way, I would definitely recommend trying to get him on frozen. Safer and definitely more convenient.

I was very lucky and my BP ate frozen the first time I ever fed him (even though he had been eating live for the breeder).

Hope this helps.

Good luck!

-- George

Hahaha. Not to knock on the ppl who feed their snakes f/t or prekills, but I find alot of ppl pushing for that. More and more its becoming almost comical. Everyone has their preferences.

Another thing, you also proved another thing people call a myth on this forum. In the last week I was reading a thread and they said its a myth that feeding in the enclosure does not lead into more tagging; that the snakes know the difference. ::shakes head::

I do agree in feeding in the enclosure only when your snake refuses to eat. Otherwise, make a small setup for him to feed him in. This will prevent a lot of the "feed me seamor." Sounds like you almost got tagged.

You said it yourself the mouse was small. Sometimes the stores only have small ones and thats when its time to double up. Feed him two small mice and he should be fine. You should be feeding him weekly anyway. I know my friends snake would keep eating if he let them, sometimes when feeding in the enclosure you will run into that problem of the scent of the mouse staying around.

I had posted earlier that I tried f/t for a month with no luck, even when using several different tips/methods mentioned on here.

I may start feeding outside of the enclosure as I do that with my Corn and I've never had a problem with her.

I had fed him on Thursday (which had been 6 days since his last feed) and this happened on Tuesday. I'll go to a 5 day schedule (smaller meals more often method).

Ugh....it kind of drives me crazy that F/T is pushed so hard with some of you. I don't mean to call some of you out....but just saying. :rolleyes: I respect that some of you feed F/T...pls respect that some of us feed live. They both have different pros and cons.

Feed him what he will take. Not power feeding! But he should probably have more based on what he weighs. (not sure if you know). He was definetly still hungry. I do not go with the 15% as it seems waaaaaaayyyyyy to small for mine when you work it out. So I go with the widest part of the body. But in your case...if they are small....depending on his size...go with 2 or 3. You might also think about starting a colony...if getting them is unreliable. Where I am at the store is like 40 minutes away so we make the trip once a week....which is fine with me. I get to play w a bunch of reptiles while I am there....lol

One of my snakes that is still under 500 grams will take a jumbo mouse...and two adults. But she is a total pig. After all that she will still look at you like....where is the next one. Egads I know I need to switch to rats but that is just a little scary still to me....lol


And sorry Evil me...I still think it is a myth about feeding in the cage. We have done this since about the third feeding on my first snake.....never had a problem. It is almost like they have a calander in their enclosure somewhere. Saturday comes and they are ready for it.

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Originally Posted by Evilme5229

I do agree in feeding in the enclosure only when your snake refuses to eat. Otherwise, make a small setup for him to feed him in. This will prevent a lot of the "feed me seamor." Sounds like you almost got tagged.

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He would have had the same response if he'd had the animal in a separate feeding tub and had the mouse pre-scenting on top of it - not sure that's a strong argument for feeding in a different enclosure.

I feed 50 snakes in their enclosures. I've NEVER been mistaken for food, and I don't handle any one animal more than a few times a week for routine cage maintenance.

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Ugh....it kind of drives me crazy that F/T is pushed so hard with some of you. I don't mean to call some of you out....but just saying. :rolleyes: I respect that some of you feed F/T...pls respect that some of us feed live. They both have different pros and cons.

Feed him what he will take. Not power feeding! But he should probably have more based on what he weighs. (not sure if you know). He was definetly still hungry. I do not go with the 15% as it seems waaaaaaayyyyyy to small for mine when you work it out. So I go with the widest part of the body. But in your case...if they are small....depending on his size...go with 2 or 3. You might also think about starting a colony...if getting them is unreliable. Where I am at the store is like 40 minutes away so we make the trip once a week....which is fine with me. I get to play w a bunch of reptiles while I am there....lol

One of my snakes that is still under 500 grams will take a jumbo mouse...and two adults. But she is a total pig. After all that she will still look at you like....where is the next one. Egads I know I need to switch to rats but that is just a little scary still to me....lol


And sorry Evil me...I still think it is a myth about feeding in the cage. We have done this since about the third feeding on my first snake.....never had a problem. It is almost like they have a calander in their enclosure somewhere. Saturday comes and they are ready for it.

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What she said - both about live feeding and feeding in the enclosure! :D

People aren't pushing F/T onto him. There telling him because its an easy solution to his problem. Buying frozen you can get a consistent size rat/mouse unlike what he is experiencing at the pet store.

These people weren't pushing F/T on him because they believe feeding live is wrong, but because his problem would be easily solved by ordering the F/T.

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

Buying frozen you can get a consistent size rat/mouse unlike what he is experiencing at the pet store.

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This is one of my pet peeves about frozen. I often buy the Petco brand Gourmet Rodent in packs of three. They almost always come in 3 sizes, small, med, large hopper e.g. There can be as much as 7 or 8 grams variance between large and small.

I have 2 snakes I feed these to, exact same weight. So one is always getting cheated a little out of his meal. The largest one I tend to toss to my 200g python cause it looks a little large for the corns. (unless a 20g hopper is okay for a 110g corn snake).

Buy from a better source. :P

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Originally Posted by zantedeschia

This is one of my pet peeves about frozen. I often buy the Petco brand Gourmet Rodent in packs of three. They almost always come in 3 sizes, small, med, large hopper e.g. There can be as much as 7 or 8 grams variance between large and small.

I have 2 snakes I feed these to, exact same weight. So one is always getting cheated a little out of his meal. The largest one I tend to toss to my 200g python cause it looks a little large for the corns. (unless a 20g hopper is okay for a 110g corn snake).

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Originally Posted by dr del

Buy from a better source. :P

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What Dr. Del said, times 1000!

I get my feeders at the local show when I need them and i got a bag of 30 weaned rats that are IDENTICAL. size, frozen position, even color. This is great.

Some bags aren't so great but i have a variety of snakes and when my supplier tells me the sizes aren't even throughout the bag he gives me the OPTION of buying that bag or another.

I've seen Pet/smart/cos frozen mice.. terrible.

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Originally Posted by redstormlax12

People aren't pushing F/T onto him. There telling him because its an easy solution to his problem. Buying frozen you can get a consistent size rat/mouse unlike what he is experiencing at the pet store.

These people weren't pushing F/T on him because they believe feeding live is wrong, but because his problem would be easily solved by ordering the F/T.

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That was my point exactly -- well said, thank you!

And as far as feeding in a seperate enclosure goes -- aren't you conditioning the snake when he is moved to the feeding enclosure? I would see the snake being more aggresive and a better chance of getting tagged by moving him to eat. Everytime you put him in that tub he will go into feeding mode -- what if he gets so excited to eat that before you get him in the feeding tub all the way he decides to take a bite out of you?

Just a thought. I don't move mine to eat, so I am just speculating.

Later,

George

I get my mice from a breeder so I just hop in pick a size and I'm out the door.

I did my first live feed today :O

My guy has been eating medium rats with no problem but since this was my first live feed I decided to go with something smaller as I was paranoid about my snakes safety. I ended up settling on a small rat.

I wasn't having a problem doing it until I let the rat loose in Kismet's enclosure. He was really cute :(

He just ran around and started grooming himself in the water bowl. Kismet immediately responded and came out of his hide and within 15 seconds he had struck the rat. The rat tried to scratch with his hind legs a little, but Kismet really ended it quickly for him. He was dead within 60 seconds or so.

Now he is just laying over there with the biggest look of snakey satisfaction on his face, as if to say "FINALLY A LIVE ONE". :P

I'm not sure if I will continue to fee live prey or not... we'll see!

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Ugh....it kind of drives me crazy that F/T is pushed so hard with some of you. I don't mean to call some of you out....but just saying. :rolleyes: I respect that some of you feed F/T...pls respect that some of us feed live. They both have different pros and cons.

Feed him what he will take. Not power feeding! But he should probably have more based on what he weighs. (not sure if you know). He was definetly still hungry. I do not go with the 15% as it seems waaaaaaayyyyyy to small for mine when you work it out. So I go with the widest part of the body. But in your case...if they are small....depending on his size...go with 2 or 3. You might also think about starting a colony...if getting them is unreliable. Where I am at the store is like 40 minutes away so we make the trip once a week....which is fine with me. I get to play w a bunch of reptiles while I am there....lol

One of my snakes that is still under 500 grams will take a jumbo mouse...and two adults. But she is a total pig. After all that she will still look at you like....where is the next one. Egads I know I need to switch to rats but that is just a little scary still to me....lol


And sorry Evil me...I still think it is a myth about feeding in the cage. We have done this since about the third feeding on my first snake.....never had a problem. It is almost like they have a calander in their enclosure somewhere. Saturday comes and they are ready for it.

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No one was pushing and may I ask you what are the pros to feeding live?

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Originally Posted by dr del

Buy from a better source. :P

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Closest shows to me are San Antonio (200 miles away) and Dallas (240 miles away).

Can't afford to shell out $150 for mail order atm. :( A 3 pack of mice from Petco is $6, a 5 (or 6?) pack from Petsmart is $11. I can afford that.

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Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

No one was pushing and may I ask you what are the pros to feeding live?

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I know the question wasn't directed at me but, for ME, the pro's of feeding live:

1) I don't have to defrost and heat up 50 rodents on feeding day
2) I don't have to buy a second freezer just to keep a supply of f/t in stock
3) I don't have to "waste" food if it's refused, since I can just keep it alive until the next feeding (I do feed f/t to my kings, and I NEVER re-freeze - just as I wouldn't re-freeze meat for myself)
4) I know the condition of the live prey items that I feed, either I produce them, or a private breeder who happens to also be a friend does. I know that they are well fed and well hydrated before being offered to my animals.
5) Better feeding responses to live
6) Risk of injury to my animals is negligible (over 10K live feedings, with less than 10 minor scratches in that time, and no flesh wounds)

Those are the reasons that I choose live feeding for my ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I know the question wasn't directed at me but, for ME, the pro's of feeding live:

1) I don't have to defrost and heat up 50 rodents on feeding day
2) I don't have to buy a second freezer just to keep a supply of f/t in stock
3) I don't have to "waste" food if it's refused, since I can just keep it alive until the next feeding (I do feed f/t to my kings, and I NEVER re-freeze - just as I wouldn't re-freeze meat for myself)
4) I know the condition of the live prey items that I feed, either I produce them, or a private breeder who happens to also be a friend does. I know that they are well fed and well hydrated before being offered to my animals.
5) Better feeding responses to live
6) Risk of injury to my animals is negligible (over 10K live feedings, with less than 10 minor scratches in that time, and no flesh wounds)

Those are the reasons that I choose live feeding for my ball pythons.

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Not to be rude but these reasons aren't valid.
#1-3 Its more convenient for you.
#4 there is plenty of businesses that take great care of the rodents.
#5 Does that really matter to you? As long as they eat.
#6 I still wouldn't put my snakes at risk.

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Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

Not to be rude but these reasons aren't valid.
#1-3 Its more convenient for you.
#4 there is plenty of businesses that take great care of the rodents.
#5 Does that really matter to you? As long as they eat.
#6 I still wouldn't put my snakes at risk.

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Not to be rude, but they're perfectly valid reasons to me.

1-3 - Yes, convenience is important when you're caring for your animals.
4 - and there are plenty that do not
5 - yes, it really does matter to me
6 - the risk I've experience is less than .00005% risk - not much of a risk at all. There's also risks of not properly defrosting an animal, and it rotting in your snake's belly and killing your snake as well.

I support you feeding your animals f/t, because that's what's most convenient for you and what works best for you.

I also support other's choice to feed live if that's what they choose works best for them.

I'm not here to try to convert people to feeding a live only diet, but I also will share that live feeding is not as inherently dangerous as it's often made out to be.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Not to be rude, but they're perfectly valid reasons to me.

1-3 - Yes, convenience is important when you're caring for your animals.
4 - and there are plenty that do not
5 - yes, it really does matter to me
6 - the risk I've experience is less than .00005% risk - not much of a risk at all. There's also risks of not properly defrosting an animal, and it rotting in your snake's belly and killing your snake as well.

I support you feeding your animals f/t, because that's what's most convenient for you and what works best for you.

I also support other's choice to feed live if that's what they choose works best for them.

I'm not here to try to convert people to feeding a live only diet, but I also will share that live feeding is not as inherently dangerous as it's often made out to be.

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No hard feelings *hugs*

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Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

No hard feelings *hugs*

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None at all! :)

Sorry to have started a flaming contest!

As an update.... and in hopes that I don't start another "debate"

When I came home today Thor came out of his hide around the same time. I thought I'd get him out for a bit and I was going to get him a mouse today when I went to Charleston (nearest place to buy live or frozen). Well, put my hand in and "tag"... while he hit my finger he didn't bite it but I felt his teeth. Strange thing is that I didn't even flinch really...and I'm not sure why...perhaps it happened before I could even react? Anyway I thought... you are so flippin hungry maybe you'll eat one of the f/t's I had left from his previous attempts. I had some "medium" mice in the freezer.... thawed it and he struck it like it was live and ate it with little fuss. Next feed time I'll attempt f/t again but I'm not holding my breath that he'll continue eating them. I hate that I got tagged because he has never/ever shown aggression while out but I guess it could have been prevented if I had paid more attention to the size of his last feed... Oh well.. back to the OP, live and learn.

:D Thanks Robin for answering that question for me.

I might add ...my snakes like it better....I have yet to have refusals with live.

I find that it is not nearly as messy.

Its much faster

I have also heard that FT claws are harder than that of a live and can cause problems sometimes

I also know that it wasn't sitting in a freezer somewhere for 9 months and that it has lost some of its nutrients. (I am sure there are super reliable breeders out there and some that are not)

I get to go to the store each week...and see reptiles

Plus all of the things Robin stated.

Geez for someone not pushing FT you sure were a little offensive about live. Just sayin...not trying to start an argument. :rolleyes:

Again...it is everyones choice....I don't tell ppl to switch to live....or vice versa. I just find over and over again ppl saying....switch to F/T. If it works for that person ....awesome! It works awesome for me and I will continue to feed live.