San Francisco Garter Snake in captivity?

Hi all!

This is my first post in the colubrids area (I am a BP owner, so I usually hang out in that area).

I just had a question about the San Francisco Garter snake. When I was a kid, I lived by a creek in Minnesota, and would catch common garter snakes. I would keep them over the summer, and release them in early fall, since I wasn't bright enough to find food for them in the winter. Plus, my husbandry was so poor that they probably wouldn't have made it through a winter! :)

Anyway, I was always into books, and I was always researching things. So, I was very envious when I looked in the books and saw pictures of the San Francisco garter snake. What a beatiful animal!

So, I know they are endangered (or at least threatened). Are they illegal to keep? Are they difficult to keep in captivity? I would almost think that the DNR would try to catch a few and breed them and try to bring up the numbers.

Don't worry, I'm not planning a trip to San Franciso to try to catch one and keep as a pet. I'm just really interested in this subspecies and curious about whether or not they have been successfully kept in captivity or not.

Thanks,

George

They are successfully kept in captivity and have been for awhile - especially in Europe and Canada.

They are strictly protected in the U.S. and are listed as critically endangered under the Endangered Species Act. You need to go through miles of red tape to get a permit to own one.

I see them occasionally on the San Mateo County coast - around Ano Nuevo Park.

Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis are kept in the hobby and the locality variants - especially those from coastal Marin County - look very much like a tetrataenia.

Wow, they are pretty! I had to look it up, since I've never seen one before... I live in San Francisco, but they don't really frequent the city. ;)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

They are successfully kept in captivity and have been for awhile - especially in Europe and Canada.

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Thanks for the info. But how is it that they can keep them in Europe and Canada?

-- George

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Originally Posted by chapskis1

Thanks for the info. But how is it that they can keep them in Europe and Canada?

-- George

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The Jersey Zoo got rid of it's old group and sold them to several European zoos. They were distributed over time to the private sector from there. There are captive breeding groups in England, Germany, the Netherlands and some other countries.

The Jersey Zoo originally got their SF garters from snakes that the FWS confiscated from smugglers in the 1980s - The FWS donated them to the zoo.

..........It's also possible some were smuggled out...........

There are no laws in Europe or Canada that prevent the ownership of these animals.

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Originally Posted by chapskis1

Thanks for the info. But how is it that they can keep them in Europe and Canada?

-- George

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Same reason that no one in the US can keep Asian aros but European and Canadian people can...................Government stupidity.

I found this online article http://www.gartersnake.info/articles...an_francis.php

Very informative. I guess it makes sense why we can't own these snakes in the states -- you could easily poach one of these beauties, and then say that you bought it legally from a breeder. And then before you know it they would be extinct.

Later,

George

I never knew what this snake looked like, but that is one cool looking snake!

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Originally Posted by chapskis1

I found this online article http://www.gartersnake.info/articles...an_francis.php

Very informative. I guess it makes sense why we can't own these snakes in the states -- you could easily poach one of these beauties, and then say that you bought it legally from a breeder. And then before you know it they would be extinct.

Later,

George

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Whether or not there numbers continue to dwindle has been debated for awhile and you can bone up on it on-line. Like I said, I can take you to places here where you can find them quite easily in the wild. Their numbers are being limited by the remaining areas in which they live - not by poaching - and many people will tell you that the wild population is stable.

The case that they could easily be poached with devastating effects to the wild population is purely speculative - has that happened to the Eastern and Texas Indigos? Is the threat to their existence in the wild being determined by poachers?

I believe that if you establish a captive breeding population, they will become as common in the pet trade as other garter snakes. Why go through the ordeal and risks of poaching a $50.00 animal in a protected reserve when they are readily available?

The SF Garter got into trouble because of the development of it's preferred habitat - not poaching.

Canadian and European breeders regularly get in excess of $1,500.00 and animal for these garters. The cynic in me says that they would be hurt indeed if the restrictions on owning these animals in the States were lifted - hurt in the wallet, that is.

I'm pretty sure I saw an article recently that the San Francisco Zoo was obtaining some of these from breeders in Europe and planned to breed them, and if things went well, they might start reintroducing them into the wild to try to get the numbers up.

It really is a shame it is illegal to keep them. If a few American breeders were allowed to import some from Europe and start introducing them into the pet trade, they would soon become readily available, and there would be no point for people to poach them out of the wild.

you should talk to this member about them - http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ghlight=garter

This subject is one I can carry on about forever.

There is no such thing as a permit to have them in the USA, it is a felony straight up to have or molest them in any way.

The specimens in captivity in Europe are not in any way due to government stupidity, Just because we recognize them as critically endangered, they are a US species, therefore they are not endangered in other countries, since they are not indigenous anywhere but the USA.

A little trivia, the snakes in the San Francisco zoo are from the European bloodlines, it was easier for the zoo to import them from Holland than to get clearance from uncle Sam to gather more.

The Sharp Park golf course destroyed an immense habitat when the engineers diked off the waterways and backfilled the wetlands to make a "prime" spot for golfing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlToW...layer_embedded

http://brentplater.org/BigYear/Images/6.jpg

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Originally Posted by infernalis

This subject is one I can carry on about forever.

There is no such thing as a permit to have them in the USA, it is a felony straight up to have or molest them in any way.

The specimens in captivity in Europe are not in any way due to government stupidity, Just because we recognize them as critically endangered, they are a US species, therefore they are not endangered in other countries, since they are not indigenous anywhere but the USA.

A little trivia, the snakes in the San Francisco zoo are from the European bloodlines, it was easier for the zoo to import them from Holland than to get clearance from uncle Sam to gather more.

The Sharp Park golf course destroyed an immense habitat when the engineers diked off the waterways and backfilled the wetlands to make a "prime" spot for golfing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlToWqpsXbM&feature=player_embedded

http://brentplater.org/BigYear/Images/6.jpg

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So the USFWS Recovery Permits under Section 10(a)(1)(A) for the SF Garters don't exist?

I'll tell that to the two biologist I know who are keeping them under Section 10 Recovery permits.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'll tell that to the two biologist I know who are keeping them under Section 10 Recovery permits.

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I'd wager that these biologists are most likely involved with the habitat restoration project.

And if you understood what a section 10 recovery permit is, it is in no way a permission slip for a fellow enthusiast to keep these animals as pets.

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Originally Posted by infernalis

I'd wager that these biologists are most likely involved with the habitat restoration project.

And if you understood what a section 10 recovery permit is, it is in no way a permission slip for a fellow enthusiast to keep these animals as pets.

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They are, but they are also enthusiasts like the rest of us.

The point is that it is possible to keep them. The fact that the USFWS is allowing take and recovery permits may eventually lead to ownership in the hobby. Your statement that there is no permit in the states that allows you to keep them is not exactly correct.

I have a very firm understanding of what a Section 10 permit entails. We deal with biologists all the time who possess these for various "endangered" species - red legged frog, clapper rail, blah, blah, blah.

They are not that hard to find. I know a few places in San Mateo County where, during the right time of year, you can find them in fairly large numbers. We may find one day that private ownership, without the miles of paperwork and scientific permits, may be here before we know it.

Myself and a whole lot of people I know would be first in line for that.

I'm just curious why no talk of this is running in the Thamnophis circles?

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Originally Posted by infernalis

Myself and a whole lot of people I know would be first in line for that.

I'm just curious why no talk of this is running in the Thamnophis circles?

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I have no idea - I'm not familiar with Thamnophis circles.............but I can tell you from experience with other species - cribos for instance, that common sense ideas such as preserving locality variants appears to not be on anyone's radar.

There are areas in north western SC county and SM where you can find them. A number of years ago we were paving for Caltrans near Pescadero and saw large numbers of them, especially in brush adjacent to wetland ponds.

There were enough of them that biologists were required to come in and relocate them in areas where we were staging - they would readily congregate under trench shoring, form wood, etc.

I have never understood why a species that is relatively easy to breed in captivity is not being considered for a captive breeding program. A lot of other native species on the critically endangered list have prohibitive husbandry requirements and are hard to breed - red legged frogs, gobies and birds come to mind.

But this isn't the case with SF Garters. While the vaunted European population is suffering from inbreeding and stagnant bloodlines, a captive breeding program here in the states could revitalize the species, make them available to people here, and ease the poaching stresses on the wild population.

Within a decade these would be just as affordable as any other garter..............

Apparently, the government knows best.

I don't believe the crisis has as much to do with snake population as it does with destruction of habitat.

Some of the herpers I know who lurk around Humboldt county get some great photos.

The core of the problem is they are a locality specific snake, and the locality they once called home is dwindling fast.

If you see tetrataenia in the wild, PLEASE take photos, I know of a couple Thamnophis sites that would love to display them for you.

I have a ton of captive photos from Europe on display, always welcome and appreciate "in the wild" photos.

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Originally Posted by infernalis

I don't believe the crisis has as much to do with snake population as it does with destruction of habitat.

Some of the herpers I know who lurk around Humboldt county get some great photos.

The core of the problem is they are a locality specific snake, and the locality they once called home is dwindling fast.

If you see tetrataenia in the wild, PLEASE take photos, I know of a couple Thamnophis sites that would love to display them for you.

I have a ton of captive photos from Europe on display, always welcome and appreciate "in the wild" photos.

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I agree on the destruction of habitat...........but............

While they have lost a lot of habitat in the Pacifica/San Bruno Area, along with lands east of Hwy 280 through urban San Mateo County, a lot of habitat remains on the west side of those coast ranges. Being local to this area, having lived and worked in this area, I can go out and drive for miles and see suitable range and habitat.

Maybe you and I would agree that the SF garter would lend itself wonderfully to a captive propagation and reintroduction program. Problem is that the USFWS doesn't seem to be interested.

What if the USFWS reached out to the Thamnophis Community and offered a limited number of WC specimen for a 15 year captive breeding program? What if that program stipulated that until wild populations could be stabilized by introducing them into the former limits their historical range, that these breeders would have to give 80% of their clutches back to the USFWS for reintroduction into the wild? What if the USFWS required that the remaining 20% of the animals be chipped in order to make sure that no poached or smuggled animals made it into the hobby.

From the northern part of Santa Cruz County to Daly City, there are miles upon miles of suitable reintroduction areas into what was their historical range. These areas will never be developed.

So the question remains - why is the Federal Government not promoting a reintroduction plan of this species?

Sorry if it seemed like I skipped out....

This has been a great conversation and educational.

One of my "wet dream" herping trips is to photograph some San frans on the ground... One day I hope to fulfill that.

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Originally Posted by infernalis

Sorry if it seemed like I skipped out....

This has been a great conversation and educational.

One of my "wet dream" herping trips is to photograph some San frans on the ground... One day I hope to fulfill that.

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One of the things about SF garters is that F&W doesn't seem to survey private lands in what they consider the historical range.

The lands between Highway 1 and Highway 35 and through the 84 and 92 corridors are mostly private, as are the lands that the Crystal Springs Pipeline runs across. A lot of this land is has not been adapted for agrarian use and is off limits to the general public.

I'm wondering what the change to the status of the SF garter would be if the USFWS surveyed the habitat in these areas.

I was once told that there is money to be made by keeping them endangered.

Government grants for snake fencing, culverts under roadways and signage.

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Originally Posted by infernalis

I was once told that there is money to be made by keeping them endangered.

Government grants for snake fencing, culverts under roadways and signage.

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I think there is that.

I also think that the government hasn't surveyed land owned by SF Water and private property owners between Waddell Creek and Pacifica.

Two months ago we did this little job near Point Reyes.

http://www.sparselysageandtimely.com/blog/?p=8739

Many governmental agencies held up our permits for so many years that the creek and culvert in question became so socked in with silt and DG that a salmonid and steelhead (both endangered) supposedly became red legged frog habitat. A froggy paradise in which the little red legged fiends came from far and wide to frolic and mate.

For over a week we dredged and cleaned the creek. We were forced to hire a team of biologists and frog wranglers to install frog fencing and escort the endangered little beasties to safety.

After a week, they tallied up the frogs that were caught/spotted - 2.

A month later, we were dredging another culvert in West Marin. No permits were needed because the feds told us that it was not prime red legged frog habitat.

My workers have to be certified to spot and catch frogs in order for us to do our construction work. After one day in this supposedly frog free area, where we were told no frogs would dare live, we lost count of how many we caught. Locals knew about this because every year they spawn in the road side ditches. I find it amazing that a bunch of West Marin dairymen and cattle ranchers know better than government biologists on where red-legged frogs live.

Yes they mate and thrive in an area where the g-men say they shouldn't be.

So after spending many years working in the Bay Area, and working on projects for Caltrans, the County of San Mateo and SF Water, it's my personal belief that the USFWS has overlooked areas where SF garters are living because they have not looked up from the coastal marshes in Pescadero and Half Moon Bay to the land between the ocean and Highway 280. Hell, Wayne, I've seen them at Crystal Springs Reservoir within sight distance of Highway 280.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Sharp Park was habitat - and Ano Nuevo has them, but they exist in areas on the Peninsula where the pinched-faced and hairy-armpitted female F&G biologists never tread.