Line's don't matter??

I keep seeing this statement pop up that lines don't matter when it come to mutations. I have to wholeheartedly disagree. When it comes to pastel line's they most certainly do make a difference. Now there are exceptions to every rule but for the most part what follows holds true.

Line breeding animals for a specific trait is a method breeders use to emphasize a particular attribute they like in a mutation.

For example. These two animals are the same age in these Pics
Graziani Line pastels are bred to highlight the blushing and flames so they look like this as adults.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...cluebright.jpg

Where as NERD line Lemons are bred for their intense yellow color and stark black contrast..and do maintain that look even into adulthood like this 2 year old male below
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...g/DSC_0025.jpg

Now this is not to say that you can't find lemons that look like Jungles or Jungles that are as bright as Lemons.

But I can tell you from experience with both line's there is a difference. And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference..

Is the Genetics the same..YES!! but the look of the offspring is so different there's no doubt that they are bred for two totally different looking animals.

I think the main confusion, especially with the pastel morph is that people ask "what line is this pastel?" expecting to get a straight response. But there is really no way to tell for sure what line it is unless you bought it knowing what line it was. When identifying a morph, there is usually a very obvious answer, when identifying lines, not so much.

I do agree that the different lines for each morph are very very different. I prefer the VPI axanthis to the TSK axanthic, but if you ask me to identify what line a particular axanthic is, I couldn't do it.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I think the main confusion, especially with the pastel morph is that people ask "what line is this pastel?" expecting to get a straight response. But there is really no way to tell for sure what line it is unless you bought it knowing what line it was. When identifying a morph, there is usually a very obvious answer, when identifying lines, not so much.

I do agree that the different lines for each morph are very very different. I prefer the VPI axanthis to the TSK axanthic, but if you ask me to identify what line a particular axanthic is, I couldn't do it.

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Agreed.. many times there are great examples of two mutations that will look so simular that its impossible to tell. In those cases it isn't that the "Line" as much as our inability to tell it from any other and so it simply becomes a Pastel, Clown, or a Hypo..

Let me clear one thing up...LINES Matter in axanthics cause some aren't compatible with each other. So don't think any axanthic when bred to any axanthic will produce axanthics..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Agreed.. many times there are great examples of two mutations that will look so simular that its impossible to tell. In those cases it isn't that the "Line" as much as our inability to tell it from any other and so it simply becomes a Pastel, Clown, or a Hypo..

Let me clear one thing up...LINES Matter in axanthics cause some aren't compatible with each other. So don't think any axanthic when bred to any axanthic will produce axanthics..

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Yeah I understand that bit, but I wouldn't be able to tell what line it was just from looking at it. So if someone was wondering if their two axanthics were compatible, it would be hard to identify if they were the same line or separate lines

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

So if someone was wondering if their two axanthics were compatible, it would be hard to identify if they were the same line or separate lines

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Impossible..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference.

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This is the important part, and the reason I will usually say the line doesn't matter as much as the look of the animal. While it is absolutely true that the line CAN make a big difference, it won't matter much if the breeders don't take care to maintain the features of the line.

If someone gets a male lemon pastel directly from NERD, but does not take care in which female normal they mate it to, not only to produce good pastels, but also to produce those that will feature the traits that make lemon pastels what they are (vivid yellow, etc), then the pastels they produce will have lost 50% of the modifying genes that make a lemon pastel what it is. Perhaps the next generation will be bred to a spider to make bees, and you can bet that breeder is not paying nearly as much attention to making a good lemon pastel as they are to making good bees, if they are paying any attention at all to quality. But the pastel offspring, which now have roughly 25% of the modifying genes that NERD so carefully selected for in their establishing of the lemon pastel line, will still be sold as lemon pastels.

So you can see how very quickly a snake from the lemon pastel line will lose almost all the qualities that make it a lemon pastel when breeders don't take care to maintain those qualities.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that the line can make a big difference IF the breeders have taken care to maintain that difference through selective breeding. But I bet with a little looking, one can also find 2 "lemon pastels" that are at least as different in their looks as the 2 pastels you posted, because many people who don't breed selectively will still apply the lemon pastel name to their offspring, regardless of whether or not those offspring fit the description of a lemon pastel anymore.

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Originally Posted by kc261

This is the important part, and the reason I will usually say the line doesn't matter as much as the look of the animal. While it is absolutely true that the line CAN make a big difference, it won't matter much if the breeders don't take care to maintain the features of the line.

If someone gets a male lemon pastel directly from NERD, but does not take care in which female normal they mate it to, not only to produce good pastels, but also to produce those that will feature the traits that make lemon pastels what they are (vivid yellow, etc), then the pastels they produce will have lost 50% of the modifying genes that make a lemon pastel what it is. Perhaps the next generation will be bred to a spider to make bees, and you can bet that breeder is not paying nearly as much attention to making a good lemon pastel as they are to making good bees, if they are paying any attention at all to quality. But the pastel offspring, which now have roughly 25% of the modifying genes that NERD so carefully selected for in their establishing of the lemon pastel line, will still be sold as lemon pastels.

So you can see how very quickly a snake from the lemon pastel line will lose almost all the qualities that make it a lemon pastel when breeders don't take care to maintain those qualities.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that the line can make a big difference IF the breeders have taken care to maintain that difference through selective breeding. But I bet with a little looking, one can also find 2 "lemon pastels" that are at least as different in their looks as the 2 pastels you posted, because many people who don't breed selectively will still apply the lemon pastel name to their offspring, regardless of whether or not those offspring fit the description of a lemon pastel anymore.

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this is why line doesn't matter, you can argue what the OP says, but not all lemons look like that and not all Graziani look like that. I've seen pastels without a line look better than those posted. You have to look at the animal not the label placed upon it. so this is why I saw line doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

this is why line doesn't matter, you can argue what the OP says, but not all lemons look like that and not all Graziani look like that. I've seen pastels without a line look better than those posted. You have to look at the animal not the label placed upon it. so this is why I saw line doesn't matter

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I agree most of the time the line doesnt really matter. It is the individual snake that matters to me.

My Pastel is of no apparent line and has very bright orange with faint yellow. I hope he keeps most of his color. I see low end Pastels that look more like normals when they are adults.

Just wanted to throw this in there, keeping documentation of your animal's lineage is important too.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I keep seeing this statement pop up that lines don't matter when it come to mutations. I have to wholeheartedly disagree. When it comes to pastel line's they most certainly do make a difference. Now there are exceptions to every rule but for the most part what follows holds true.

Line breeding animals for a specific trait is a method breeders use to emphasize a particular attribute they like in a mutation.

For example. These two animals are the same age in these Pics
Graziani Line pastels are bred to highlight the blushing and flames so they look like this as adults.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...cluebright.jpg

Where as NERD line Lemons are bred for their intense yellow color and stark black contrast..and do maintain that look even into adulthood like this 2 year old male below
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...g/DSC_0025.jpg

Now this is not to say that you can't find lemons that look like Jungles or Jungles that are as bright as Lemons.

But I can tell you from experience with both line's there is a difference. And breeders that take care to maintain that difference through selective breeding can hold two snake of different lines side by side and they are night and day difference..

Is the Genetics the same..YES!! but the look of the offspring is so different there's no doubt that they are bred for two totally different looking animals.

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Some good points BUT.

What you have done is argue the benefits of SELECTIVE BREEDING, which no one will argue against, especially me with my selective breeding pastel obsession!

The line the snake comes from is not as important as it's physical appearance, how it's bred and what its bred to then play the largest part in what its offspring will look like not where the snake originated.


There are good grazianis and bad grazianis, good nerd lemons and bad nerd lemons (etc etc etc) no line produces consitantly amazing animals without good selective breeding. This is why the quality of the snake you buy and the quality of the animals you breed it to determine the quality of the offspring you'll produce.This is much more important than the tag associated wiht that snake, although it's nice to know it, it's not the most important factor.

Re-read my post but its been too long to edit.

IT doesn't read quite like it should, I am not trying to say you're wrong simply that, out of all the factors involved, the line of PASTEL (note, i've never said 'line doesn't matter' about anything other than pastels) is the least important of all the factors when purchasing pastels. You should know which line it is, it's useful and people may ask.

Another reason it's not *as* important as other factors is this: There are hundreds of 'lines' of pastel, with dozens of new WC pastels coming in each year not all of these have a "line name" so people shouldn't place *too* much importance on it. There is also further confusion when breeders take another breeders line of pastel and then, through selective breeding produce different looking animals and change the "name" of the line.

This is exactly what hapened in cases like the ruppel/stonewashed line of pastels. The founding animals were graziani which were then selectively bred for different traits and given a whole new name. I guess a better way of phrasing what I was trying ot say would be this: What line a pastel comes from is completely unimportant WHEN COMPARED TO the qualities the individual animal in question has. Things like high blushing, good colour contrast and the shade of colour are much more important than which bloodline the snake originally came from way back when. Greg Graziani produces some of the best super pastels in the world but that is through careful selective breeding over a long period of time. A dark, brown, rubbish "graziani" pastel brought from "Joe Schmo" that was produced with no thought to enhancing or removing certain traits is about as likely to produce those trademark 'super dupers' as I am to get a specter in a bag of ten CF balls. In this example then the tag 'graziani' being applied to the pastel is irrelevant and the actual features and qualites of the snake itself are far more important.

Going back to an earlier point pastel is pretty much the only morph where this is true. the line IS an important consideration when selecting things like which axanthic or hypoto work with. Some hypos are awful (i'd never consider buying a 'green ghost' for example, i've yet to see a good one). Similarly I prefer VPI axanthics to TSK and joliff lines. They tend to look better as adults, i've seen many TSK axanthic (adults) that you can barely tell from a normal or not tell it apoart form a normal at all, i've seen fewer poor adult VPI axanthics therefore I prefer the VPI line. I prefer orange hypo to the other lines (some of which are, again, snakes from other lines like 'orange' that are selectively bred for a slightly different trait then renamed)

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Originally Posted by mason

What line a pastel comes from is completely unimportant WHEN COMPARED TO the qualities the individual animal in question has.

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That says it all right there.

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Originally Posted by rebel750

I agree most of the time the line doesnt really matter. It is the individual snake that matters to me.

My Pastel is of no apparent line and has very bright orange with faint yellow. I hope he keeps most of his color. I see low end Pastels that look more like normals when they are adults.

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You also need to understand that the bright oranges on pastels will ALWAYS brown out. The only colors that stay the same are the yellows.

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Originally Posted by kc261

That says it all right there.

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That really is the crux of my argument I suppose.

Through careful selective breeding we've taken our lemon pastels far beyond anything the breeder who originally sold him to us has. His focus is to produce numbers, ours is to selectively breed for certain traits and aspects.