Punnett Squares??

Ok, so Im trying to figure out Punnett Squares.... I can do a pastel to a spider easy, but how in the world would you make one for a bumblebee to a pinstripe? Do you have to foil the first pair like you would a recessive trait or what??? How would I set up a square for a co-dom with 2 traits to a co-dom with only one trait???


Heres what Im getting....Im lost

NI=Pinstripe NpNs=Pastel Spider?
Would it be.....

___N__ I
Ns _____
Np _____


or

___N___ I
NN ______
Np_______
Ns______
sp ________
That cant be right how would you combine them??? That would only give me 8 squares when I need 16 right?

Or is it?

___N___ I___N____I
N_______
s _______
N _______
p _______

Im only getting 4 norm 4pin 2 pastel 2 spider 2 spinner 2 blasts...but no Spinnerblasts or bumblebees... Which both should be in there??? I think.....
Sorry I cant make squares on here so its hard to explain, Im just trying to figure out how to set up the square!
CoDom Spider Pastel to a codom Pinstripe
Please help

We have a nifty little Tables feature that will help you format the punnet squares


which would be coded like so:


[TABLE="width=500px"] | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | | | |
2 | | | |
3 | | | |
4 | | | |
[/TABLE]

I know it has no relation to this thread, but I figured you, and others, would find it useful :)

12.5% WT
12.5% pastel
12.5% spider
12.5% spider, pastel
12.5% pinstrpe
12.5% pinstrpe, pastel
12.5% pinstrpe, spider
12.5% pinstrpe, spider, pastel

http://www.geneticswizard.com/a_R3_calc.asp

Im NOT looking for the results... I AM looking for HOW TO set up the square...so I can figure the results myself, I want to learn how to use these squares....Thank You
Also, I have no friggin clue how to use that wizard program, and it sure doesnt tell me how to either...whats up witht that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

Im NOT looking for the results... I AM looking for HOW TO set up the square...so I can figure the results myself, I want to learn how to use these squares....Thank You
Also, I have no friggin clue how to use that wizard program, and it sure doesnt tell me how to either...whats up witht that?

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You're welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

___N___ I
NN ______
Np_______
Ns______
sp ________

---

this one is correct (only 8 squares required)

normal, pin x normal, pastel, spider, spider pastel...

NS=Spider NP=Pastel NI =Pinstripe
THis is the table I get, Which is obviously wrong, can someone show me how to fill it in right please.....


PS Thanks for the table chart, it makes my question so much easier....

Hi,

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

And to use the wizard you need to know the number of base morphs and how they are expressed. It's amazing once you have the basics but notsomuch when you are still learning those.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan1

this one is correct (only 8 squares required)

normal, pin x normal, pastel, spider, spider pastel...

---

IM trying to get a bumblebee to a pinstripe, that seems to be leaving quite a bit out...

Sorry Nate I was talking about that link the other person posted, how the heck does that work??

Hi,

Select 3 abnormal traits.

Build query.

In the boxes enter pastel (tick codominant ), spider (tick dominant ), pinstripe (tick dominant ).

For a male bumblebee click het for spider and pastel in the male column.

For a female pinstripe select het in the pin line of the female column.

and click "wt" for the female in the spider and pastel lines and for the male in the pinstripe line.

Then click ask the wizard.


dr del

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html

This is a link to nerd which is one of the few places I have seen discuss double recessives and such. Maybe it will help

Ok, I did that and it worked and told me the results....so How do I make a Punnitt Square for the same thing on my own????
Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan1

this one is correct (only 8 squares required)

normal, pin x normal, pastel, spider, spider pastel...

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

IM trying to get a bumblebee to a pinstripe, that seems to be leaving quite a bit out...

---

nope, tis correct
you'll still get your spinnerblast, bee, lemonblast etc...

here's something similar, this is my way, same principle as yours

bumblebee x fire (normal, pastel, spider, spider pastel x normal, fire)

.......N......F
N.....N......F
P.....P......PF (firefly)
S.....S......SF (spire)
SP...SP....SPF (firebee)

Those are all double to double, and i cant figure out how to do a double to a single, you see what Im asking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan1

nope, tis correct
you'll still get your spinnerblast, bee, lemonblast etc...

here's something similar, this is my way, same principle as yours

bumblebee x fire (normal, pastel, spider, spider pastel x normal, fire)

.......N......F
N.....N......F
P.....P......PF (firefly)
S.....S......SF (spire)
SP...SP....SPF (firebee)

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So if you want to make a square you have to break down each gene that your trying to mix? Am I getting this?

But how would you figure the odds of normals and co-dom/doms, and the jewels? Isnt there a much bigger square?

ok... look at it this way...
if you breed a pin to a normal, what are the possibilities?
pin and normal (2 different types of offspring), yes?
if you breed a bumblebee to a normal, what are the possibilities?
normal, pastel, spider, bumblebee (4 different types of offspring), yes?
put those 2 breakdowns too the punnett...
2 x 4 = 8 empty squares, which gives what you said in punnett No.2 (below)

___N___ I
NN ______
Np_______
Ns______
sp ________

which results in this...
12.5% WT
12.5% pastel
12.5% spider
12.5% spider, pastel
12.5% pinstrpe
12.5% pinstrpe, pastel
12.5% pinstrpe, spider
12.5% pinstrpe, spider, pastel

So, I was doing it right, just simplified?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

But how would you figure the odds of normals and co-dom/doms, and the jewels? Isnt there a much bigger square?

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this may help...

http://www.screptiles.co.uk/RoyalPyt...s/Genetics.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

So, I was doing it right, just simplified?

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in your No.2 example, yes...
your No.1 and 3 are wrong

IS THIS RIGHT!? WOOT!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

IS THIS RIGHT!? WOOT!

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you are correct !!! :gj:

AWESOME!!! Thanks Man! Thank you everyone else, I think Im finally getting the hang of this! Im excited!!:banana:

Ok so Im going to drop a bomb here...how would you do a KINGPIN X STINGER BEE?:O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

Ok so Im going to drop a bomb here...how would you do a KINGPIN X STINGER BEE?:O

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kingpin is 'lesser x pin'...
4 different types of offspring... normal, lesser, pin, lesser pin
stingerbee is 'enchi x spider'...
4 different types of offspring... normal, enchi, spider, enchi spider
soo, your punnett will have 4 rows, and 4 columns... leaving you with 4 x 4 blank squares

....N...E...S...ES
N
L
P
LP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daynegerous

IS THIS RIGHT!? WOOT!

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Sort of, only you lost half your genetics for half of the clutch;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Sort of, only you lost half your genetics for half of the clutch;)

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all 8 possibles are there...

I've never done the squares, just followed 2 rules. 50/50 and 100

Het x Normal = 50/50
Homo x Normal = 100% Hets

This works in all cases, whether recessive or dominant. You just have to remember that what we call "Pastel" (or any other co-dom) is actually just a Het for the Homozygous version of that gene (Super Pastel in this case).

I will do an example of the odds of an 8 egg clutch to make it simpler to follow.

Spider X Normal = SSSS NNNN (50% of your clutch would appear normal, 50% would appear spiders)

Spider Pastel X Normal = Adding in another gene just invokes another 50% rule. Of the offspring that inherited the S gene, 50% of those also inherit the Pastel gene. Same thing with the normals. 50% of those inherit the P as well. So we go from SSSS NNNN to SP, SP, S, S, P, P, N, N

Spider Pastel Pinstripe X Normal = Now just apply the 50% rule to the above using Pinstripes. Also remember that when working with 3 different genes like this, it doesn't matter which parent is carrying them, you get the same results. SP,SP, S, S, P, P, N, N beccomes SP Pin, SP, S Pin, S, P Pin, P, Pin, N


Snake genetics is just a series of coin flips, which is why you are going to end up with 1 in 2, 1 in 4, 1 in 8, 1 in 16's, etc.

how would you do a KINGPIN X STINGER BEE

L,Pin,S,E 4 different genes going to take you to 16

L X N = LLLLLLLL NNNNNNNN
L,P X N = LP,LP,LP,LP,L,L,L,L P,P,P,P,N,N,N,N
L,P,S X N = LPS, LPS, LP, LP, LS, LS, L, L, PS, PS, P, P, S, S, N, N
L,P,S,E X N = LPSE, LPS, LPE, LP, LSE, LS, LE, L, PSE, PS, PE, P, SE, S, E, N

Are you using the tree system there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Sort of, only you lost half your genetics for half of the clutch;)

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How would you fill in the square? Please

If you look at http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/ you can see both the square and the results, then its easier to compare.

Thomas