Pine/Cedar wood

Does anyone know for sure if Pine Wood is actually toxic to BP's?? I am wondering because my husband has made a rack, and after he finished we realized that all plywood that Homedepot sales is Pine. At one time, someone told us that pine is equally as toxic as cedar. If so, since this is just a rack for the tubs and they will not be actually directly on it, would it still bother them? (Keeping in mind that we drilled holes for them in the sides of their tubs.) We just dont want to trust the opinions of the people we got our first snakes from, so any help is appreciated. Thanks.:confused:

The only kind of pine that is remotely acceptable is kiln dried pine.

I would go through with some wood sealant and apply a few coats for that.

I personally would just not use the rack, but if you sealed it very well it might be fine.

Its not the actual wood thats toxic, it is the phenols it emmits.

Melamine is a good alternative.

I am still in doubt because as I looked up online racks for reptiles, I found hundres of breeders that use plywood, which asccording to homedepot is made from pine, to build their racks. I even found a ton of breeders who are breeding BP's that have how to build your own racks on their web sights, and they actually say that they just bought pine 1 x's to build their racks. So I dont know for sure. I mean there are holes in the tubs for air, but the racks is primered with 3 coats and then, just to be sure, my hubby put Hi-Temp paint that is used on outdoor grills and engine blocks on it. Of course, we will wait a whole week for it to dry and air out before putting them in it, but do you guys think with the primer and paint the pine will still hurt them?

I doubt it would be harmful if it is sealed. Its really cedar that you have to worry about. Pine isn't as bad as cedar inthe phenol department.

I might get some thumbs down for this but one of my balls has been on pine for about 3 months now with not one problem at all. I ran out of aspen when I was cleaning so I put some pine in there. It was also from the top of the bag and wasn't dusty at all so that I'm sure helped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

I might get some thumbs down for this but one of my balls has been on pine for about 3 months now with not one problem at all. I ran out of aspen when I was cleaning so I put some pine in there. It was also from the top of the bag and wasn't dusty at all so that I'm sure helped.

---

It's the oils not the dust.
Phenols, bad for your snake, bad for rats.
Yep, thumbs down, :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

It's the oils not the dust.
Phenols, bad for your snake, bad for rats.
Yep, thumbs down, :P

---

Or, you may talk to people who have been using both pine substrate and racks for years with no problems at all.

Yes, phenols are not good, but how are you measuring them?

I don't measure it since I don't use it.
Makes no sense to me to "test" my snakes on pine when it is known to be an issue in many small animals.

When I can google "is pine safe for my snake",
and find reputable websites touting the use of pine, I'll gladly try it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I don't measure it since I don't use it.
Makes no sense to me to "test" my snakes on pine when it is known to be an issue in many small animals.

When I can google "is pine safe for my snake",
and find reputable websites touting the use of pine, I'll gladly try it.

---

So, anything you can google is true?

Do you have any of these "reputable" websites you could link me to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

So, anything you can google is true?

Do you have any of these "reputable" websites you could link me to?

---

Here is one, if you read about the 3rd paragraph he tells you what the materials are that he used.
http://northeastsnakes.com/racks.html

This is another, but he is using his racks for boas, maybe not the same, Im not sure...
http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/howto_easyrack.htm

This one is a video of building a rack, its probably not a "reputable breeder", but I'm not sure what qualifies or makes one more reputable than another. What I mean is this isnt Nerd, but Im sure his bp's are fine, he shows one in his video.
YouTube - My New Ball Python Rack

So there are a few, but if want I will try to find out if any big name breeders use pine as their rack system.

Let me clarify that I was speaking towards animals are leaders comment about using pine as a substrate, and not about using it as a rack material.
I apologize for the confusion :confused:

I have read that you can and can't.

I changed it after reading all the back and forth on the this thread though ;)

My snake is fine though even after being on it for 3 months practically. I personally think its a load of you know what that all pine substrate is bad. If it was I'm sure I would have encountered problems... But I changed it just out of good measure, not worth risking it but I do believe that its ok to use in certain cases but if you can avoid using it do so. Its like the bag too, some are dried better then others it all depends.

Thank you, I appreciate the links.

I don't know of the northwest guy but he seems to make some nice racks. I would say Gus at Riobravo is reputable, very.

However, have you considered that there are thousands of snakes kept for years, reproducing regularly and living long lives that are kept on pine shavings?

I was just wondering what it would take, and I don't mean just for you, for the stigma of pine shavings as a substrate to fade.

If you knew a guy, hopefully a reputable guy, or girl, who had used pine successfully for years and multiple generations, would you still have the same point of view?

I'm not trying to beat you up over this, I am genuinely curious. I hear this argument all the time, that it is said, said being the key word, to be bad. But is there any actual anecdotal evidence to back that up from anyone who has more than a handful of snakes that they've had for more than a few months?

I must admit that I have not gone in search of such people, but I am curious about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

It's the oils not the dust.
Phenols, bad for your snake, bad for rats.
Yep, thumbs down, :P

---

Also, I have had more problems with my rats on Aspen then with pine...

Whenever I switched to aspen all they did was sneeze the whole time and have bloody noses. I use pine with my rats and they are fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Thank you, I appreciate the links.

I don't know of the northwest guy but he seems to make some nice racks. I would say Gus at Riobravo is reputable, very.

However, have you considered that there are thousands of snakes kept for years, reproducing regularly and living long lives that are kept on pine shavings?

I was just wondering what it would take, and I don't mean just for you, for the stigma of pine shavings as a substrate to fade.

If you knew a guy, hopefully a reputable guy, or girl, who had used pine successfully for years and multiple generations, would you still have the same point of view?

I'm not trying to beat you up over this, I am genuinely curious. I hear this argument all the time, that it is said, said being the key word, to be bad. But is there any actual anecdotal evidence to back that up from anyone who has more than a handful of snakes that they've had for more than a few months?

I must admit that I have not gone in search of such people, but I am curious about it.

---

I know someone. And hes great w/ snakes. I met him at petco and he explained to me how he used pine for years w/o one problem. Thats what bugs me as well that people think its sooo bad to use pine. If it was as bad as they say then I would have problems right now. 3 months of pine exposure you would think be enough to create some kind of problem no?

EDIT: Probably not the best in terms of proof but he seemed like a genuine guy and not someone who would talk out his arse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

I know someone. And hes great w/ snakes. I met him at petco and he explained to me how he used pine for years w/o one problem. Thats what bugs me as well that people think its sooo bad to use pine. If it was as bad as they say then I would have problems right now. 3 months of pine exposure you would think be enough to create some kind of problem no?

---

How about 30 years plus? I've got one 21 year old snake and another few that are well into their teens that have been on pine since they hatched.

That's what makes me so curious about the bad rep.

Oh well, I'm sure that somewhen someone had a bad experience and decided it was the pine, nothing but the pine and would always be the pine.

i am no expert but i recently received 2 ball python that have been kept on pine for the past 2 years and they have no problems. i dont like pine because i find cypress mulch better for humidity, but like i said 2 years and no problems. if pine was bad why was there any problems with the snakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chago11

i am no expert but i recently received 2 ball python that have been kept on pine for the past 2 years and they have no problems. i dont like pine because i find cypress mulch better for humidity, but like i said 2 years and no problems. if pine was bad why was there any problems with the snakes.

---

uh oh, look out pine shunners jk jk jk

I was thinking about switching to cypress mulch as well due to humidity, and it also seems a little harder to get into their mouths when swallowing. I also like the way it looks. Has a nice look to it when its photographed with snakes sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

uh oh, look out pine shunners jk jk jk

I was thinking about switching to cypress mulch as well due to humidity, and it also seems a little harder to get into their mouths when swallowing. I also like the way it looks. Has a nice look to it when its photographed with snakes sometimes.

---

i agree with how it looks much better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I don't measure it since I don't use it.
Makes no sense to me to "test" my snakes on pine when it is known to be an issue in many small animals.

When I can google "is pine safe for my snake",
and find reputable websites touting the use of pine, I'll gladly try it.

---

25+ years of using pine cages and pine substrate.

Still use it.

Still not having any health issues with it.

Still have not seen one person come forward with a health related issue due to using pine.

How many of you Brainiacs out there shooting the evil eye at pine use PVC products in caging and racks? Yes PVC, known by some health groups as the "Poison Plastic".

Hands up.....how many?

I've used pine for our rats for 18 + years.
As for the snakes. Plywood cages use to be the norm.