Lucy bug eyed ball python for $400

Super butter, is it worth it??

Bug eyed?? Can you post a pic of it? Where is it advertised for sale at? Possibly if its from a reputable breeder but why does it have bug eyes? Incubation problem or something genetic.. If its possibly genetic I would be worried about breeding it. Then again, maybe like many other animals it will "grow into its eyes"?

We really need a picture of this one.

only as a pet. look at texas rats. that will be inherited.

No one who is reputable will sell a Super Butter BEL for $400. Either they do not know what kind of snake they are selling or it is a total scam. But I agree... A picure is needed.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

No one who is reputable will sell a Super Butter BEL for $400. Either they do not know what kind of snake they are selling or it is a total scam. But I agree... A picure is needed.

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Yeah they would, if it has a genetic defect such as...hrm...bug eyes for example.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

No one who is reputable will sell a Super Butter BEL for $400. Either they do not know what kind of snake they are selling or it is a total scam. But I agree... A picure is needed.

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They would, no ones going to pay full price for a bug eyed snake that they cant even breed (...SHOULDNT breed)

Should be sold as Pet Quality only...and pray that the buyer has ethics.:please:

would love to see a picture of what a bug eye'd BP is.

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

would love to see a picture of what a bug eye'd BP is.

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Ditto

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...29768&key=2009

15th picture down is an example of a bug eyed lucy. Doubt it's the one the op is talking about...much higher price tag :)

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Originally Posted by Sarin

No one who is reputable will sell a Super Butter BEL for $400.

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I would not be so quick to make a statement like this. I have seen on more then one occasion a very well know and reputable breeder selling Ball Pythons that should have either of been put down after being hatched or maybe kept as a pet being sold at very low prices at reptile expos. These Ball Pythons where high end. Unfortunately it does happen... But a picture would help.

Why would a reputable breeder sell genetically defected Ball Pythons? They have no idea if the person they're selling it to intends to breed them or keep them as a pet.

Just my opinion... I know I personally wouldn't.

I'm curious, many people in this thread have commented that the bug-eyed snake is defected and shouldn't be bred, yet many of the people who commented have Spiders with a well-known genetic defect.

At what point does a defect become acceptable?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm curious, many people in this thread have commented that the bug-eyed snake is defected and shouldn't be bred, yet many of the people who commented have Spiders with a well-known genetic defect.

At what point does a defect become acceptable?

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Good point. I don't know enough about the Bug-Eyed defect to argue the fact but the wobble is attached to the Spider gene and as far as I know there's no way to rid of it. I assume the Bug-Eye is different as you don't always see it in Lucy's?

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Bug eyed?? Can you post a pic of it? Where is it advertised for sale at? Possibly if its from a reputable breeder but why does it have bug eyes? Incubation problem or something genetic.. If its possibly genetic I would be worried about breeding it. Then again, maybe like many other animals it will "grow into its eyes"?

We really need a picture of this one.

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The bug eyes in Leucistic Texas Rats are is a genetic flaw so I would think this would be no different.

I think this one smells like tuna :weirdface.

Thank you for that. Do they ever "grow" into their eyes?? Is this a common thing with BEL's?

I would think that $400- is really cheap even for a bug eye'd BEL. I could be wrong. Check out the sellers info on the Board of Inquiry on Fauna Classifieds. There are some ppl that are truly rip off artists out there.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

Why would a reputable breeder sell genetically defected Ball Pythons? They have no idea if the person they're selling it to intends to breed them or keep them as a pet.

Just my opinion... I know I personally wouldn't.

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Because some of them are shiesty, you and the public dont know this because they put on an act.

It's been posted on here before that it's not uncommon for bels to get bug eyed as they age, just seems to be one of those things that gets swept under the carpet to make a cool looking snake.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Because some of them are shiesty, you and the public dont know this because they put on an act.

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While it's true that we have unethical breeders in our midst, may I remind you that NO research has been done to lay the groundwork needed to state that ALL Spiders have the wobble gene? I, for one, have never gotten on that bandwagon, and if I ever do hatch out wobbles they will not be sold.

I think many of us realize that there is NO perfect animal with perfect genes. Even a beautiful animal hatched from flawless genes has the ability to throw defective animals (sort of like people, sometimes $h!t happens in the creation of a living being).

This may be why some are hestitant to lable any lines that have thrown defective animals "totally" defective and cut out the whole gene.

If the bug-eye does not affect the quality of life of the snake, then I would breed it. IMO, the wobbling in spiders does not affect them, and I have bred them. I also have some super motley Nic boas that have smaller heads than other Nics, but it does not affect them in any way, so I will breed them. I would also breed scaleless snakes if I had them, because I do not feel that it affects their quality of life.

Regardless of the bug-eyed genetics, $400 is a extremely low price. How old is it, how much does it weigh, does it eat mice/rats, or is it a gerbil eater? I'm like others here, pictures are needed.

Got to be a reason it's selling so cheap.
Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by broadude

While it's true that we have unethical breeders in our midst, may I remind you that NO research has been done to lay the groundwork needed to state that ALL Spiders have the wobble gene? I, for one, have never gotten on that bandwagon, and if I ever do hatch out wobbles they will not be sold.

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I would agree with you, but the fact is that the original spider had wobbles, so all other will. My first spider had no wobbles whatsoever, until he was a couple years old. Then he started wobbling. It is not something that can be bred out, and no breeder can know with 100% surety if their spiders will never wobble.

DO what you believe is right, and quit worrying about what others think ;)

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

It is not something that can be bred out

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How do you know this for certain?

Are you a geneticist or are you merely stating your opinion as fact? Again.

From what I have been told and seen in my collection, the lesser x lesser and or butter x butter have the eye problem about 50% of the time. I believe doing lesser x mojave gets rid of the problem but I only have one lesser x mojave bel so I can't say for sure. The lesser x mojave bel I do have is perfect but with such a small sample size I obviously can't say that it definitely rids them of the problem. I posted pics here of my Lesser x lesser bel eyes a month or so ago. Looks like this is just another one of those things that the big guys hide for as long as possible. Just like the spiders, caramels, super black pastels, super cinny's...

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Originally Posted by pfan151

From what I have been told and seen in my collection, the lesser x lesser and or butter x butter have the eye problem about 50% of the time. I believe doing lesser x mojave gets rid of the problem but I only have one lesser x mojave bel so I can't say for sure. The lesser x mojave bel I do have is perfect but with such a small sample size I obviously can't say that it definitely rids them of the problem. I posted pics here of my Lesser x lesser bel eyes a month or so ago. Looks like this is just another one of those things that the big guys hide for as long as possible. Just like the spiders, caramels, super black pastels, super cinny's...

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I'm not familiar the Super Black and Super Cinny problems. What are they?

Here is a link to a thread with pics of my female lesser x lesser bel's eyes. Post #24
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=107342&page=3

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I'm not familiar the Super Black and Super Cinny problems. What are they?

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kinks and deformed noses.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I'm not familiar the Super Black and Super Cinny problems. What are they?

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duck bill - flat looking face.

Seen pictures, never seen one in person. Just regurgin what i've read.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=93283

check out the link in post #4

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Originally Posted by scutechute

duck bill - flat looking face.

Seen pictures, never seen one in person. Just regurgin what i've read.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=93283

check out the link in post #4

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Have to insert: I have also seen the "duckbill" on an Albino that had none of the above genes.

I guess it's just one of those things. Sometimes even people with "perfect" genes can have a deformed child.:tears:

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Originally Posted by NathanV

Super butter, is it worth it??

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I won’t enter the ethical debate (because I could go on all day) but I will answer the “ is it worth it?” question.

Let say that personally I would not take it even if it was free. :cool:

So now the question is, is it worth it to YOU?

Do you want a morph just to say you have a morph or do you want the best example of the morph you want?

oh...I think the duck bill is super cute. But that is just me and I tend to be a little quircky...lol just makes me wanna kiss him on the nose even more!!

I personally think that all spiders show some type of trait. Even if they didn't hasn't it been proven that ones that don't show signs can throw out babies that have it and vice versa.

I think that as long as it does not effect the quality of life of the reptile then so be it. Kind of like if you had a german shepard...with hip problems...obviously you wouldnt want to breed it as this will effect the quality of life of the animal and cause pain later on. However with that being said....I would never sell an animal without letting ppl know about it. To me I would feel as though I was lying....and there is no excuse for that. ;)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How do you know this for certain?

Are you a geneticist or are you merely stating your opinion as fact? Again.

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I would rather refer to it as an educated guess. If he original animal had the genetic issue, then the rest will also. It seems fairly simple to me.

Genetic deformities are bound to happen when breeding any animal. The reputable and responsible breeder should strive for breeding the best examples of the morph/breed as to improve it. If/when a deformity rears its ugly head then the breeder needs to make an ethical and educated decision as to how the deformity will effect the animals quality of life.

In most cases the animal will be a great pet. Who would want to put down an animal the acts and seems perfectly happy? Not me. I find no issue with a breeder selling or trying to adopt out animals with defects as long as they are HONEST to the perspective owner about any and all issues it may have.

Personally, I would try to find the animal a home with someone I knew or knew wouldn't be breeding said animal. I would go as far as to possibly have them sign something stating they won't breed it.

To the OP, if you are comfortable owning a not so perfect animal an are willing to take the responsibility of any problems that may arise then I say go for it. It deserves a good home. I wouldn't suggest breeding it however.

Sorry for the run-on...my two cents. :D

I wrote a long response to the genetic issues, but I've decided to erase it and just say, do what you want. If you can get the snake for $400, buy it, breed it if you want, keep it as a pet if you want. I don't know of anyone that hasn't done something wrong in our industry. It would be a great buy, just make sure there's no kinks in the spine.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

Ok, here's why spider wobbling isn't a gene that you can breed out.

A) The first spider wobbled. Some of the first spider's offspring also wobbled. It did not matter which female the spider was paired with--some offspring wobbled.

That means that the wobble trait must be dominant, and not recessive, if it is a gene.

B) When you breed a non-wobbling spider to any normal snake, some of the offspring may wobble. If the gene were dominant, then a non-wobbler could not produce wobbling offspring.

Wobbling is vanishingly uncommon in any ball python other than the spider morph.

The spider lines have been almost exclusively outcrossed since it was discovered that you can't make a super-spider (probably homozygous lethal). No one has verifiably managed to eliminate wobbling from their spider lines.
Official studies can be done to determine what goes on with the wobble trait, but logic and genetics information alone suffices to explain why this isn't a gene that can simply be eliminated by only breeding non-wobbling spiders.

The same situation is likely to be true of duck-billing in cinnamons. I cannot be the only person who has noticed that the facial structure of a cinnamon or black pastel is NOT normal. Doubling the gene is likely to produced some extremes of form, because one copy of the gene already malforms the face slightly. Fortunately, duck-billing doesn't appear to cause any problems for the snake whatsoever.

As for bug-eyes in BELs, that really DOES remain to be seen. Repeated lesser X lesser crosses may be revealing--if you get bug-yes consistantly from some pairings, and never from others, then it isn't something related exclusively to lesser X lesser BELs, but is instead another recessive gene coming to light, and it should be bred out.

One thing a good friend of mine told me was the more you have the more you see. With the thousads of snakes hatched each year there's bound to be some crazy stuff pop out.
Two head's, no eye's, Little eye's (ask Tim Bailey about his Pinstripe with the little eye), heart outside the body loads of stuff..

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Thank you for that. Do they ever "grow" into their eyes?? Is this a common thing with BEL's?

I would think that $400- is really cheap even for a bug eye'd BEL. I could be wrong. Check out the sellers info on the Board of Inquiry on Fauna Classifieds. There are some ppl that are truly rip off artists out there.

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bugged eye is bugged eye....they don't grow into their "eyes" it's a genetic flaw ....it's somewhat more common with lesser x lesser breedings.

Pitoon

Quite honestly, the only way to know if it's genetic is to breed it (going with the idea that people haven't. Fairly new to ball pythons and such). Only then would anyone if it was truely a genetic thing, or if it was just a random genetic oops, as I like to call them.

If it was dominant, some of the offspring would have it. If it was recessive, the offspring would either have to bred bred to each other, or back tot he affected snake. But I'm sure everyone already knows that, lol. While it may be proven to be genetic in a different species that happens to be leutistic, that doesn't mean it's the same for bps.

If it's been done with bps, feel free to ignore my ramblings. If not, it's something to think about. I'd think that if it was genetic, the siblings would also have the issue/repeated pairs of the parents would result in more. Personally? I'd buy it, but I love oddities like that.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm curious, many people in this thread have commented that the bug-eyed snake is defected and shouldn't be bred, yet many of the people who commented have Spiders with a well-known genetic defect.

At what point does a defect become acceptable?

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The first spider wobbled. We really did not have any non wobbleing spiders to breed instead of it. Who is to say they should have bred it... it wasnt me.

As of the lucy, I have no idea if being bug eyed is something that is common in bels. But if it isnt, why now possibly introduce it?

thanks guys! i really want this animal, do you know if the wierd eyes make there lives uncomfortable??

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Originally Posted by NathanV

thanks guys! i really want this animal, do you know if the wierd eyes make there lives uncomfortable??

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Probably just see the world as one big skateboarding video shot with a fish eye lens. Triiiipppyyy.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

Probably just see the world as one big skateboarding video shot with a fish eye lens. Triiiipppyyy.

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LOL...That is funny!

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Originally Posted by NathanV

thanks guys! i really want this animal, do you know if the wierd eyes make there lives uncomfortable??

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I can't say for sure, but I do not think so. If I were you, I would try to find people that own BELs with bug-eyes and ask them.

Since they would have lived their lives like that, it would be 'normal' for them. Meaning they wouldn't know anything different. Though, I'd mildly think that there would be a possibility of retained eyecaps after shed though.

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Originally Posted by jlawson

Ditto

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Trans Pecos Rat?

bug eyeing is something thats common among the lesser/butter x lesser/butter ask a breeder for stats, but its reported all the time. as with the spider, they eat, pop, breed, and live healthy lives in captivity. whats the problem?

and whos to say its a flaw? mayb they can see better or see more? mayb not, but you guys call it bad because its looks different, but you own morphs?

and also how can people still be arguing the spider thing, lemme end it right here. Spider is a dominant morph, it is outcrossed because of that fact alone. Now add the fact that the homozygous form doesn't exist, it's almost never inbred. so after all this out crossing, 100% of the normal offspring to spiders has never had a reported wobble, so that makes it tied just to the spider gene. Now people have wobbleless spiders, but the offspring always end up wobbling. and it always possible those wobbleless spiders wobbled as neos and outgrew it.

conclusion, after 10 years of spiders being bred, its just tied to the gene, face it.

thank you all for the input, my snake guy reduced the price to 375 and its really pretty, ima do payments on it.

While. In daytona I happened to see a super butter in Kim Bell's table, I asked her about the bug eye's, she said it was pretty common and that she hadn't noticed anything different about it other than the appearance. While I hope my future lesser x lesser cluthes produce a super with regular eyes I'll be ok if I get a bug eyed one.