IBD strikes again :(

so i found out today that a girl from work had a ball python that died from IBD over the weekend. she bought it from petsmart a lil over a month ago and when she went to petsmart they pretty much said "too bad" i told her to start looking online for breeders and go that way from now on.

how do you know it was IBD? death can be caused by lots of reasons.

because her vet did the bloodwork and thats what she came out with

ok proof enough!

what is IBD?

Inclusion-body disease. its a viral disease in boas and pythons. in pytons its always deadly.

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

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Originally Posted by monty's dad

what is IBD?

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Its the worst thing a ball python could possibly get!


Never but a snake from those chain pet stores, more times than not its gonna have problems.

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Originally Posted by mpkeelee

because her vet did the bloodwork and thats what she came out with

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i thought IBD didnt show up in bloodwork? i thought the only possibly conclusive test for IBD was a liver biopsy.

OP, tell your friend to disinfect EVERYTHING she owns concerning herps. if its wood, she may want to throw it out, if its plastic sterilize it completely, etc. regardless of the cause of all of this.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

i thought IBD didnt show up in bloodwork? i thought the only possibly conclusive test for IBD was a liver biopsy.

OP, tell your friend to disinfect EVERYTHING she owns concerning herps. if its wood, she may want to throw it out, if its plastic sterilize it completely, etc. regardless of the cause of all of this.

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Agree... IBD can only be diagnosed through a necropsy. The animal must be dead. They check tissue samples from the brain. liver and various other organs. Blood has nothing to do with it. Even then, the cells conclusive to IBD are found in these organs anyway so it is not a rock solid diagnosis.

Blood work? I would tell your friend to find a new vet as well as a private breeder for snakes.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Agree... IBD can only be diagnosed through a necropsy. The animal must be dead. They check tissue samples from the brain. liver and various other organs. Blood has nothing to do with it. Even then, the cells conclusive to IBD are found in these organs anyway so it is not a rock solid diagnosis.

Blood work? I would tell your friend to find a new vet as well as a private breeder for snakes.

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knew i forgot the brain tissue. *doh*

i knew i wasn't crazy, thanks for clarifying this.

im sure the vet did a necropsy on the snake cuz she had some papers n stuff from the vet saying it was IBD. she only had the snake 1 month and wanted to go back and get store credit or something. i told her about this website and a bunch of breeder sites and everything so i hope she has better luck with her next one if she decides to get one.

I currently work at a petsmart in NY and I have to say this is disturbing. Depending on the people working in the petcare department, this should NOT have happened. Petcare associates have higher standards than people think.

Our store credit/return system only works after 15 days, but if the snake was bought sick, I would not return to that store.

horrible news..:snake: poor snakie

and agreed IBD can not be done by blood work and only 100% tested when animal has died. I have heard of liver biopsies while the snake is still alive but this is NOT 100%

I just got two new snakes and I've been trying to keep up some sort of quarantine but its tough to do 100%. Worst part is that I never bothered with it in the past when I was just getting started. But now I've got several pythons that I'm attached to and that are worth well over a grand. I didn't think of it right away when I got the two new guys so now I'm doing my best after the fact and sweating it for the next few months.



Thought this was appropriate:

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

According to this Melissa Kaplan article, IBD can be diagnosed in live snakes through bloodwork.

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...easeVirus.html

Inclusions can also be seen in lymphocytes and other white blood cells in peripheral blood films stained with Wright-Giemsa or the following modified hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) technique.

I have found this staining far superior than using Wright-Giemsa staining. With Wright-Giemsa staining the inclusions stain basophilic and may not be readily recognizable. With H&E staining, inclusions stain exactly the same as in tissues embedded in paraffin, sectioned and stained with H&E. Blood films should first be examined before tissue biopsies are obtained and submitted for histopathology. However, we do not know how often inclusions are seen in a peripheral blood film of a snake with IBD. It must be remembered that absence of inclusions in a blood film does not necessarily mean the snake is free of IBD.


So it CAN be determined from a blood test. If Dr. Jacobsen says it can be - it can be.

Quoting Melissa Kaplan is risky. She's an idiot. However, sometimes even a blind idiotic slug of a lying pig finds an acorn now and then.

I'd be willing to be that this wasn't IBD. Why does it seem that vets are quick to throw the IBD diagnosis on every dead and/or dying snake that comes in??

........not saying that it definitely didn't have IBD (of course I do not know all of the details) it could have had IBD.....but the clinical signs of IBD are quite variable. Really could have been a number of things.

In any event, kudos to pointing your friend in the direction of a private breeder. There are too many people out there working with BP's to NOT buy captive bred.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Quoting Melissa Kaplan is risky. She's an idiot. However, sometimes even a blind idiotic slug of a lying pig finds an acorn now and then.

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I did not know that. For whatever reason, I've always had the impression that her articles were of above average quaity. I haven't experienced any ill fortune as a direct result of her publications but, other than that, I can't say I have any reason to endorse her. I will say your statements about her certainly seem overly strong based on what I've seen. I'd be interested in hearing more....

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I did not know that. For whatever reason, I've always had the impression that her articles were of above average quaity. I haven't experienced any ill fortune as a direct result of her publications but, other than that, I can't say I have any reason to endorse her. I will say your statements about her certainly seem overly strong based on what I've seen. I'd be interested in hearing more....

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If you research her, you'll find that she is firmly in league with the HSUS and PETA folks in terms of not keeping reptiles as pets.

Furthermore, the majority of her articles are at best, re-hashed and at worst, utter garbage.

Have you read her stuff? She is a veritable font of misinformation.......she is also a hypocrite.

Dig a bit deeper.

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Originally Posted by jonf

I'd be willing to be that this wasn't IBD. Why does it seem that vets are quick to throw the IBD diagnosis on every dead and/or dying snake that comes in??

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Because the symptoms mimic everything from GI infections to respiratory illness to subclinical infections.

If the OP could scan and post the results of the necropsy or blood work, we could tell. A sure kicker is that the necropsy has to really be accompanied by a histopathology of the affected tissues/organs. That ain't cheap.

PETA/HSUS huh? Bummer. And, really hypocritical. I mean, if you are going to advocate being "hands off" with animals then you've got no business being involved in their health care. As is the case with the people that subscribe to the separation philosophy, they are either being hypocritical or are effectively advocating the end of the human race.

Anyway, I can't say I ever researched her. I will say that I've never seen any indication of her personal beliefs in her articles and, rehashed or not, I've always found them to be above average in professionalism and quality. Perhaps I'm easily impressed. As I said before, I'm not out to endorse her.

Melissa Kaplan is not held in high regard in the reptile industry. For good reason.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Melissa+Kaplan

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Melissa+Kaplan

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Because the symptoms mimic everything from GI infections to respiratory illness to subclinical infections.

If the OP could scan and post the results of the necropsy or blood work, we could tell. A sure kicker is that the necropsy has to really be accompanied by a histopathology of the affected tissues/organs. That ain't cheap.

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exactly............the main difference is that there are cures,medications,treatments,etc for respiratory and other infections whereas there are none for IBD. How many vets have suggested euthanizing a snake that was thought to have IBD without actually confirming it? and then took it a step further and suggested euthanizing other snakes in the collection that were showing symptoms? Makes you wonder.......??

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Originally Posted by jonf

exactly............the main difference is that there are cures,medications,treatments,etc for respiratory and other infections whereas there are none for IBD. How many vets have suggested euthanizing a snake that was thought to have IBD without actually confirming it? and then took it a step further and suggested euthanizing other snakes in the collection that were showing symptoms? Makes you wonder.......??

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Then again how many owners have opted to not diagnose the disease because of the costs involved?

I lost two snakes over a year ago to IBD that were long term captives. It took a lot of time and money to confirm the infection. To save the other snakes in my collection - I euthanized my infected snakes. If I had listened to to forum geniuses (and many boa breeders) I could have lost many more snakes.

I found outright denial in the boa community. Subsequent conversations with UCD Veterinary staff and e-mail correspondence with Dr. Jacobsen confirmed that the disease is more widespread than we think and that in many cases remains asymptomatic for years.........and that many owners and breeders are in denial.

I sent copies of my correspondence to Dr. Jacobsen to a few people on this forum. You compare his responses with those I received from the boa naysayers and it really makes you think............

Bottom line - if your snake has on-going sub-clinical infections that won't resolve, spend the money and opt for as much testing as it takes to get a real diagnosis. The small symptoms that mimic other diseases can be treated and in most cases respond to proper medical care. If they don't, well, then you have a choice to make.

i will see if i can scan the paperwork from the girl at work and try to post it. i havent read it myself but apparently the papers say IBD.