y are these Black eyed Leucistics not all white?

i saw this on kingsnake.com and i thought that black eyed leucistics were all white

http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1014564.jpg

Because Black Eyed Lucies aren't all white they develope some tan patches as they age some more than others.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Because Black Eyed Lucies aren't all white they develope some tan patches as they age some more than others.

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so what the difference between Black Eyed Lucies and ivories?

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Originally Posted by Mr.longfellow

so what the difference between Black Eyed Lucies and ivories?

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The fact that they are the super form of two totally different morphs to start..and Ivorys tend to be "Cleaner" than Blk EL

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The fact that they are the super form of two totally different morphs to start..and Ivorys tend to be "Cleaner" than Blk EL

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so what morphs make a black eyed leucistic?

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Originally Posted by Mr.longfellow

so what morphs make a black eyed leucistic?

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Fire..

Whereas the Ivory is a super Yellow Belly

what makes a blue eyed leucistic i know mojave X mojave will make blue eyed leucistic but what is it in the mojave gene or the lesser gene that that causes blue eyed lucy

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Originally Posted by Mr.longfellow

what makes a blue eyed leucistic i know mojave X mojave will make blue eyed leucistic but what is it in the mojave gene or the lesser gene that that causes blue eyed lucy

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Don't know how to answer the last part of your question... but you can make blue-eyed lucies with any combination of mojave, lesser and/or butter. Speaking of which, do the blue-eyed lucies also develop tan patches with age?? :confused:

not that ive ever noticed.

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Originally Posted by Mr.longfellow

not that ive ever noticed.

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inless it's a mojave X mojave then tha'r durty looking like an ivory.

Black Eye Lucys can be produced by the following:

Sulfur x Sulfur
Fire X Fire
and I belive that the two morphs are compatible with eachother but not 100% sure on that

Blue Eye Lucys can be produced by the following:

Mojave x Mojave
Mojave x Lesser
Mojave x Butter
Lesser x Lesser
Lesser x Butter
Butter x Butter
Russo x Russo aka White Diamond
(I think that is it)


Ivories are produced by:

Yellowbelly x Yellowbelly

Depending on the snake, I think the tan patches look pretty sweet.

There are also mochas which super form is a blue eye'd lucy and so far are proven compatible with Mojaves to also produce a Blue eye. I believe for black eye's there is also a vin russo het blk eye lucy. I might be wrong on that one though. I'm pretty sure the vin russo hets are alos compatible with lessers, mojaves or butters. I'm willing to bet that mochas will produce a blue eye with lessers and butters too. ~Caylan.S.~

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Originally Posted by MKHerps

Black Eye Lucys can be produced by the following:

Sulfur x Sulfur
Fire X Fire
and I belive that the two morphs are compatible with eachother but not 100% sure on that

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There is also Amir's line of flame hypo, which supposedly doesn't have the tan splotches. Pro-exotics has something they call a lemonback that also makes a black-eyed leucistic, although I haven't heard much of anything else about it.

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Don't know how to answer the last part of your question... but you can make blue-eyed lucies with any combination of mojave, lesser and/or butter. Speaking of which, do the blue-eyed lucies also develop tan patches with age?? :confused:

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No, but they do have a yellow line along their spine that you can see in person when they're young that starts to become more noticeable as they age (at least the ones I've seen).

for what it's worth the ad title does state "Black Eye Leucistic Super Fireball"

So Im guessing it's not just another Black eyed lucy

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Originally Posted by rebel750

for what it's worth the ad title does state "Black Eye Leucistic Super Fireball"

So Im guessing it's not just another Black eyed lucy

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It's a BlackEL produced by two Fire (Super Fire) ball pythons.

So a lesser x lesser or butter x butter will be cleaner/whiter BEL than mohave x mohave

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Originally Posted by nikevijo

So a lesser x lesser or butter x butter will be cleaner/whiter BEL than mohave x mohave

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way cleaner, yea. also its mojave

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

way cleaner, yea. also its mojave

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I always do that, lol MOJAVE
Will you still get the purple on the head with LxL, BxB???

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Originally Posted by Mr.longfellow

inless it's a mojave X mojave then tha'r durty looking like an ivory.

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Nothing dirty about an Ivory, they are one of the few morphs that get better with age...almost pure white

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Originally Posted by nikevijo

I always do that, lol MOJAVE
Will you still get the purple on the head with LxL, BxB???

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No.

Also, Phantom x Lesser/Butter/Russo/Mocha produces a BEL as well, as far as I know. The only hitch is that Phantom x Phantom does not produce a BEL.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

The only hitch is that Phantom x Phantom does not produce a BEL.

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That's not not entirely accurate.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

That's not not entirely accurate.

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How's that? Yeah, the Super Phantom is linked to the BEL complex (otherwise, Phantom x BEL-Complex Morphs wouldn't produce BELs), but I don't think Super Phantoms are BELs....

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Originally Posted by Eventide

How's that? Yeah, the Super Phantom is linked to the BEL complex (otherwise, Phantom x BEL-Complex Morphs wouldn't produce BELs), but I don't think Super Phantoms are BELs....

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I know for a fact by the breeder that did the breeding that on more than one occasion a Phantom X Phantom and produced BEL's and the "Super Phantom" in the same clutch.

Really? Huh. I don't remember seeing that in his clutch records.... Oh, well. That's pretty interesting.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Really? Huh. I don't remember seeing that in his clutch records.... Oh, well. That's pretty interesting.

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I know its so unlike a ball python breeder to keep secret's about a project in order to boost the hype isn't it.. LOL

And Ralph has as many classified clutches as he has public.. I think you'll see the Phantom pan out to be a very very neat project none the less..

Just my two cents, but most of the Super Fires that I have seen (and Super Sulfurs) that have yellow patches are born that way. I don't know that I have ever heard of them developing patches as they age.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I know its so unlike a ball python breeder to keep secret's about a project in order to boost the hype isn't it.. LOL

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Yes, I realize he has a lot of classified clutches, and yes, I do realize many python breeders keep secrets to get people all riled up, thank you. The sarcasm was not necessary.

Doesn't sound like he's doing very well at keeping this particular secret, though....

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Yes, I realize he has a lot of classified clutches, and yes, I do realize many python breeders keep secrets to get people all riled up, thank you. The sarcasm was not necessary.

Doesn't sound like he's doing very well at keeping this particular secret, though....

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Sorry if you took it the wrong way my friend not meant to be rude..

and the breeder I speak of isn't Ralph..there are a couple of others out there with them.. :gj:

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Originally Posted by nikevijo

I always do that, lol MOJAVE
Will you still get the purple on the head with LxL, BxB???

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nope

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Originally Posted by FIREball

Nothing dirty about an Ivory, they are one of the few morphs that get better with age...almost pure white

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I agree 100% they are amazing as adults.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I know for a fact by the breeder that did the breeding that on more than one occasion a Phantom X Phantom and produced BEL's and the "Super Phantom" in the same clutch.

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first I have to hear of this, tho I have seen ralphs multiple phantom x phantom breedings that made just super phantoms, no BEL

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

first I have to hear of this, tho I have seen ralphs multiple phantom x phantom breedings that made just super phantoms, no BEL

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No doubt..Not saying it happens every time..also didn't say it was Ralph..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

No doubt..Not saying it happens every time..also didn't say it was Ralph..

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well it just goes against simple genetics, and you are the first person I've ever herd say that. I'm just saying ralph done it a few times and still no BEL.... and I mean statistically you should get 25% super 50% phantom 25% normal... unless phantom is a more complex gene than is public or your breeding friend has some sort of hidden gene.

so have your friend release some data

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

well it just goes against simple genetics, and you are the first person I've ever herd say that. I'm just saying ralph done it a few times and still no BEL.... and I mean statistically you should get 25% super 50% phantom 25% normal... unless phantom is a more complex gene than is public or your breeding friend has some sort of hidden gene.

so have your friend release some data

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how does it go against simple genetics

Here I'll do it this way

We all know what it takes to make a BEL right..

Ever see a Mystic potion up close? they have this purple/gray tint to them..Like this
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/s...rum/975587.jpg

Sort of a less washed out version of a super Mojave like this
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rph2208bel.jpg

Look at the heads..

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...nakes005-1.jpg
Look right behind the neck and in the body you'll see a faint pattern that looks like a faded super phantom..

Here's a less more washed out Mystic potion..
[IMG]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...radoxMP2-1.jpg[/IMG]

Now if Mojave to mojave makes a BEL and Mojave to Lesser makes a BEL and Phantom to Lesser makes a BEL and Lesser to lesser makes a BEL..

Then I think what we are seeing is similar to the super stripe where the combo of the two makes a less drastic version of the super.

It all just different versions of the same gene..

P.S. I've also seen pics of super lessers that have faint pattern and a yellow stripe down there back. :D hormones can do funny things to skink in reptiles. its responsible for the glow in females and even the ability for many to change color all together..

Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

how does it go against simple genetics

Here I'll do it this way

We all know what it takes to make a BEL right..

Ever see a Mystic potion up close? they have this purple/gray tint to them..Like this
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/s...rum/975587.jpg

Sort of a less washed out version of a super Mojave like this
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rph2208bel.jpg

Look at the heads..

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...nakes005-1.jpg
Look right behind the neck and in the body you'll see a faint pattern that looks like a faded super phantom..

Here's a less more washed out Mystic potion..
[IMG]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...radoxMP2-1.jpg[/IMG]

Now if Mojave to mojave makes a BEL and Mojave to Lesser makes a BEL and Phantom to Lesser makes a BEL and Lesser to lesser makes a BEL..

Then I think what we are seeing is similar to the super stripe where the combo of the two makes a less drastic version of the super.

It all just different versions of the same gene..

P.S. I've also seen pics of super lessers that have faint pattern and a yellow stripe down there back. :D hormones can do funny things to skink in reptiles. its responsible for the glow in females and even the ability for many to change color all together..

Just food for thought.

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Wow!!! Thank you I never saw that! It make so mutch cense (after drooling on my keybord for a half hr.) lol. Awsome catch on that, super props!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

how does it go against simple genetics

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Because there is no morph that the super form makes 2 different snakes. a mojave x mojave will always make super mojaves.... you can't get a mystic potion.

unless im not understanding what your saying... You made it out to sound like out of a phantom x phantom he made BELs.... well yea that goes against simple genetics because phantom/phantom makes super phantom.

doesn't matter that its part of the BEL complex, a mojave/mystic will never make a super mojave, it will always make mystic potion. just as much as a phantom/lesser will always make BEL, never a super phantom. just as yellowbelly/spector will always make superstripe, never an ivory.

understand what im saying now?

What he's getting at is that a super phantom is really just a darker version of the usual BEL. Or if you want to switch it around, a BEL is just a lighter version of what happens with the super phantom. It all comes down to the amount of melanin and coloration. Just like a pastel can produce bright yellow pastels and dirty brown pastels.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Because there is no morph that the super form makes 2 different snakes. a mojave x mojave will always make super mojaves.... you can't get a mystic potion.

unless im not understanding what your saying... You made it out to sound like out of a phantom x phantom he made BELs.... well yea that goes against simple genetics because phantom/phantom makes super phantom.

doesn't matter that its part of the BEL complex, a mojave/mystic will never make a super mojave, it will always make mystic potion. just as much as a phantom/lesser will always make BEL, never a super phantom. just as yellowbelly/spector will always make superstripe, never an ivory.

understand what im saying now?

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There is still much we don't understand..Unless I'm mistaken and it happens more often than I'll admit there are still things we are finding out about animals that have been around for years...

For instance if Phantom X Phantom = super phantom and Mojo X Phantom = "Mystic Potion" then by the same trait Lesser X Phantom should be a "Mystic potion"..but low and behold it a BEL, other things like why did some of the Lesser Pied's turn out to be BEL but the Mojo Pieds aren't. Why do spider pieds have a totally white body with a colored head? Why are Lesser sibs produced from a Lesser to normal breeding not produce Platty Daddys only Platty sibs bred to Lessers produce Plattys.. Then you get in to the Leopards those things just baffle me. All I'm saying is that the Phantom it seems strange that the Phantom is the only piece of the BEL complex that seems to be missing a corner..

Like was said before I think we'll find that a Mystic potion is a homozygous animal and not a combo of two different genes..

All I'm saying is that I have been to that a breeder bred Phantom to phantom and produce super phantoms and BEL's in the same clutch..Could be a fluke could be more going on in that animal than the general public knows. Could have been a double sired clutch.

FWIW, I have also talked to a breeder who has produced BEL's from Phantom x Phantom and told that they got Super Phantoms and BEL's in the same clutch.

Anyone working on the axanthic version? Could be a solution.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

For instance if Phantom X Phantom = super phantom and Mojo X Phantom = "Mystic Potion" then by the same trait Lesser X Phantom should be a "Mystic potion"..but low and behold it a BEL,

No, thats because mojave and lesser are different morphs. you can see that in the super mojave vs the super lesser, along with other combos.

other things like why did some of the Lesser Pied's turn out to be BEL but the Mojo Pieds aren't.

again no...picture taken by me at tinley
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...piedlesser.jpg

Tho I didn't look that close, I don't recall blue eyes eigher, I posted pics after tinley and people on here told me there was more pied looking lesser pieds than all white lesser pieds, tho i do find it intresting there are so many of the all white lesser pieds.

Why do spider pieds have a totally white body with a colored head? Why are Lesser sibs produced from a Lesser to normal breeding not produce Platty Daddys only Platty sibs bred to Lessers produce Plattys.. Then you get in to the Leopards those things just baffle me.

I have yet to look into the spider pieds, and I don't really understand what your saying about the plattys.... but platty is a hidden gene morph, lesser and the platty gene (or w/e its called). look at ralphs site he has all the info on it. hes also made "butter plattys". and I don't even know what a leopard is.

All I'm saying is that the Phantom it seems strange that the Phantom is the only piece of the BEL complex that seems to be missing a corner..

it wasn't strange until the BEL super phantom were brought up. all of ralphs phantom/phantom just produce super phantoms, no BEL, which leads me to believe the mystery breeder has something going on with one of his phantoms

Like was said before I think we'll find that a Mystic potion is a homozygous animal and not a combo of two different genes..

It IS a homozygous animal, mystic and mojave are the pair of genes, if you bred it to a normal, you will only get mojaves and mystics, no normals

All I'm saying is that I have been to that a breeder bred Phantom to phantom and produce super phantoms and BEL's in the same clutch..Could be a fluke could be more going on in that animal than the general public knows. Could have been a double sired clutch.

Which brings me back to saying, its eigher a more complex gene than we know and someone is withholding information and you guys are leaking it out, which if your going to leak it out, why doesn't this mystery breeder everyone seems to know release some real info, so we can stop guessing.

or he has a hidden/unknown gene in his phantom causing it, which would be even more intresting to me

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Originally Posted by MATTI

Anyone working on the axanthic version? Could be a solution.

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huh?

I like the picture comparison. I myself have a super mocha aka latte and was thinking of breeding a phantom. I wonder if that is a bad choice as it will make a bel and not some kind of potion. Any ideas? I wish I had a super mojo.

There could be a hidden gene in some of the phantoms, Since the Hiden gene in the lessers is also a peice of the BEL complex and is not visiable on it's own.

There is so much we do not know, and so many people have animals they they do not know what is all in them.. we know what we see....... we do not know the excact genes of every snake out there..

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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Well how technical do you want to get, because technically, the only BEL that actually look leucistic are the lesser/butter x lesser/butter, but on a genetic level I doubt are true leucistic either.

Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser Platinum
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

are all part of the same complex though, they all sit on the same locus. has nothing to do with how the snakes look. Same locus = Same complex in snake talk.

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Don't know how to answer the last part of your question... but you can make blue-eyed lucies with any combination of mojave, lesser and/or butter. Speaking of which, do the blue-eyed lucies also develop tan patches with age?? :confused:

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How does the Russo (white diamond)
Gene mix with these?? More specifically will the russo
Diamond X Butter produce a BEL?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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You're right. A phantom is positively NOT a blue-eyed leucistic.

However, breeding trials do strongly suggest that all of the alleles we are talking about (the "phantom" allele, the "lesser" allele, the "mocha" allele, etc.) are on the same locus. It certain isn't proven, but statistics are reeeeeeally starting to point in that direction.

I agree that the term "BEL complex" is a misnomer since more than half of the "super" forms aren't actually leucistics, but that doesn't mean that they can't be on the same locus that does produce leucistics.

Not all alleles on a given locus have to have the same phenotypic expression. In fact, if they did have the same phenotypic expression, we'd never know they were different without genetic analysis.

(Also, I do agree that the expression of homozygous phantom as "super phantom" versus BEL could easily be due to the effect of an epistatic modifier gene -- or two, or more -- on a different allele.)

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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In addition, it's been pretty much proven that genetics DOESN'T work in the simplified way that we try to pass it off in herpetoculture.

It's a good system for estimating the outcome of what offspring may look like, but if you equate typical herpetoculture genetics talk to newtonian mechanics, "real" genetics as we currently THINK we understand it is definitely on par with quantum mechanics.