An ideal rpetile regualtions

Ok as all know with the passing of regulations in various counties, state and other areas. I was thinking of the ideal of we all compling a set of regulations that could possible be used as a blue print for others ( departments/ state vets goverment officals) that
1) don't destroy the reptile hobby
2) does not making it illegal to own any snake ( I know in delaware reason for no venomous reptiles sicne anti vemon not handly here. ) but mainly so our right are not totally trashed.

No bashing of the ideal cause we all know at some point we going to need to pay to breath..

mainly looking at the ideal of permit classes, a requirement to get permits ( like taking a something like a hunter safety course) may be advance classes if your area allows venomous reptiles, a class related to breedign and such


I also would like someone to come up with an sticker (s) like the responsible owner ( turnnig snake over if no longer wanted) , the child inside , living will type of sticker you see for fire & rescue. that could be placed on windows/doors to makr a reptile room, inform that there are reptiles( maybe a snake,lizard or turtle to make the type of reptile room?) As well as a possible way to make this a nationwide event . I know at some point ares that don't require a permti system will see it as an ideal way to creat money off us :rolleye2: that enjoy reptiles, and I think if a national guild line( blue print ) is done then it can help protech our rights and prevent some of the unfairness that gonig on In delaware.

here a rough example of what I was thinking ( something iwas worknig on tonight lol so it not perfect and I know some people got better skills for fancy words and making something iron clad ) I also welcome ideal for failing to meet requirements ( like nelget, abuse and abandoning) aka punishments.




Basic requirements a class on care , housing and such for nonnative reptiles including lizards, snakes turtles.(this class can be something like the hunter safety class or as long a drivers ed class depending on the reptile class they want.. (aka lizard/turtle , snakes, and special class for large snakes.)
No venomous snakes are permitted to be kept. this is a Delaware thing


mutli non breeding permit :- this permit would allow for x number reptiles, no breeding and each snake would need to be listed with microchip, photo ID , and renewed every 3 years

mutli snake breeding permit :- this permit would allow limited breeding of none dangerous snakes and requires:-
1)an inspection to insure proper caging and requirements are met.
2)record of births, deaths, of reptiles in question also required all snakes microchip, photo ID and renewed every 2 years. If selling of the snakes is planned then a business lic may be required at department review.


Breeding selling permit:- a permit that renewed every year and requires a business lic this is for those that plan on breeding reptile for a profit setting. Follows a mutli snake breeding permit plus A live animal promise as well as a copy of proper care ,current vets( reptile specialist), and a emergency contact icon in case of a fire, medical , police ( notfying of a large reptile on property. )

The only regulation is not to have regulations.

The only law needed is that you don't need any laws.



Final Answer!
Jim Smith

Until reptile keeping poses a verifiable and measurable risk to the public, there is no need for permits.

The one and only law I will not argue with is a law stating something along the lines of:
If an escaped or released pet reptile causes damage or injury, the owner/releaser is held accountable.

I agree but I know in dlaware and other areas they are passing suc regulations and I was thinking that if there was some type of guild lines ( blue preint) that it might help make it more uniformed when the goverment tryes to pass them else were. We all know it gongi ot come ot it at some point. I mean lok there a moreless ban on smoking in any building that not your house now .

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

I agree but I know in dlaware and other areas they are passing suc regulations and I was thinking that if there was some type of guild lines ( blue preint) that it might help make it more uniformed when the goverment tryes to pass them else were. We all know it gongi ot come ot it at some point. I mean lok there a moreless ban on smoking in any building that not your house now .

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By agreeing to regulations, you've admitted they need regulating. Why would you want to do that?

Jim Smith

I want to say thank you for starting this thread. I am also of the school of having education and possible permits or licenses to own, not only reptiles, but in a sense, ANY pet. Who knows, could solve the problem with over population of dogs and cats, animal abuse cases, etc.

Here are mine:

1. All aspiring pet owners (I am not going to say just one type of pet), shall have taken a basic pet care course for their specific pet. (i.e. Dog care and training, cat care, bird care, fish care, reptile care, etc.)This training should be provided at animal shelters and pet stores.

2. All animals shall either be microchipped, and registered with their city/county department. Registration shall not be a monetary charge, but shall be manditory.

3. All pets (non livestock type) that are able to contract rabies, shall be innoculated for rabies once per year, and must have proof of said vaccination at registration time.

4. If owning more than _____(certain number) of pets, an inspection of your facility will be required. This is to make sure that you are capable of properly taking care of registered animals.

5. Breeders shall obtain a Breeders Permit. This will accompany the normal registration, but shall have a small fee (to discourage "backyard" breeders). Proper care and upkeep shall be required for ALL animals, be they breeders or offspring.

6. To sell for significant profit under a business name, breeders will need a copy of their business license when obtaining the breeders permit.

7. Breeds of pets/animals that have been deemed "hazardous" will require a special course in how to handle problems that may arise with said breed. (i.e. certain breeds of dogs - how to handle dog bites, certain breeds of snakes - how to handle them properly.)

8. A penalty assessed if said animal(s) is/are not taken care of properly, or escapes from enclosures, cages, etc, and become a menace to the community.

9. Vet care is required for certain pets, and proof of a yearly checkup for any pet that does not live in a bird cage, rodent cage, or reptile enclosure MUST accompany the registration application.

10. Animals must have access to adequate water and shelter at all times, and must be fed regularly to maintain proper weight (as listed on animal type standards).

11. Pet stores must keep all animals in proper conditions, with proper food, water, habitat, etc. There must not be overcrowding conditions, and all animals sold must be microchiped and registered with new owners.



well, again, thank you for this thread, and this is what I would have listed if I were the one making the laws.

Thanks
Nixie

Wow.

I'd revolt.

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Originally Posted by nixiefee

I want to say thank you for starting this thread. I am also of the school of having education and possible permits or licenses to own, not only reptiles, but in a sense, ANY pet. Who knows, could solve the problem with over population of dogs and cats, animal abuse cases, etc.

Here are mine:

1. All aspiring pet owners (I am not going to say just one type of pet), shall have taken a basic pet care course for their specific pet. (i.e. Dog care and training, cat care, bird care, fish care, reptile care, etc.)This training should be provided at animal shelters and pet stores.

2. All animals shall either be microchipped, and registered with their city/county department. Registration shall not be a monetary charge, but shall be manditory.

3. All pets (non livestock type) that are able to contract rabies, shall be innoculated for rabies once per year, and must have proof of said vaccination at registration time.

4. If owning more than _____(certain number) of pets, an inspection of your facility will be required. This is to make sure that you are capable of properly taking care of registered animals.

5. Breeders shall obtain a Breeders Permit. This will accompany the normal registration, but shall have a small fee (to discourage "backyard" breeders). Proper care and upkeep shall be required for ALL animals, be they breeders or offspring.

6. To sell for significant profit under a business name, breeders will need a copy of their business license when obtaining the breeders permit.

7. Breeds of pets/animals that have been deemed "hazardous" will require a special course in how to handle problems that may arise with said breed. (i.e. certain breeds of dogs - how to handle dog bites, certain breeds of snakes - how to handle them properly.)

8. A penalty assessed if said animal(s) is/are not taken care of properly, or escapes from enclosures, cages, etc, and become a menace to the community.

9. Vet care is required for certain pets, and proof of a yearly checkup for any pet that does not live in a bird cage, rodent cage, or reptile enclosure MUST accompany the registration application.

10. Animals must have access to adequate water and shelter at all times, and must be fed regularly to maintain proper weight (as listed on animal type standards).

11. Pet stores must keep all animals in proper conditions, with proper food, water, habitat, etc. There must not be overcrowding conditions, and all animals sold must be microchiped and registered with new owners.



well, again, thank you for this thread, and this is what I would have listed if I were the one making the laws.

Thanks
Nixie

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You forgot a 12th rule.

12. All citizens must swear their allegence to the fuhrer.

You've got to be kidding me. You can't really believe what you listed?

So in number 1, who would have to take the course, if mom and dad buy little 7 yr old Mary a hamster? If you buy a family dog does the entire family have to take the course? How old do you have to be to take the course? Do you have to take the course for a Goldfish? Will the carnival people have to administer the course if you win a goldfish tossing ping pong balls?

#2 So how do you microchip fish? Who pays for the microchip? Who is the administrator for the 200 trillion microchips? Why would you microchip a garter snake? You knid of get the idea.

#3 Is already done for most dogs and cats. But lets say we do this and you and a million other pet owners don't, what do you do with the 2 million animals that you won't register because of this violation?

#4 You talk about a facility, I'm talking about my home. I will not allow an official into my house without a warrant. You go ahead and let a government offical into your house for any reason. How often do you allow these visits, every time you get another animal? How many animals will it take 10, then what happens when someone with 9 animals has something go wrong. Then someone with 5 animals, then someone with 2 animals. Oh wait, these are for breeders. The poeple that know more about their animals than any $25,000 a year federal grunt.

#5 What's wrong with "backyard breeders"? Take away the backyard breeders and the big breeders can charge whatever they want for their animals? Then I would like for you to define "backyard breeder". Who is that? The family that love their animals and found they have a knack for animals and help pay their bills by breeding their animals. The herp breeders wouold all be recognized as backyard breeders. This would cause a revolt in and of itself.

#6 Okay, I'll get a business license when you get a car dealer's license to sell your used car. You're selling the car for a profit aren't you? Again, you do something like this, and you close down the herp industry.

#7 Breeds of pets/animals that have been deemed "hazardous" could mean any animal with a mouth. who would you trust with classifying the animals? another $25,000 a year government grunt? I don't think so.

#8 Oh sure, my little dog gets out of the yard, the neighbor (who doesn't like dogs) calls the cops and says the dog scared her little girl. The cop has to take the threat serious. You get fined and the dog is removed from your home. Come on, you've got to know this one won't work.

#9 I lose my job and the vet visit is coming up. What do I do? What vet is qualified to tell me if my plated lizard is healthy? How many vets do you think are quallified in the herp field? Oh but wait, that's not the government's fault, you have to drive 200 miles to visit a government approved vet. Yeah that will work.

#10 Okay, now we're talking, something I can believe in. But isn't that already a law for all animals everywhere? That is until you want to use a government issued standard. You ruined this one with that comment.

#11 I do believe all pet stores are already governed by the first part of your comment. But I ask you to reference my response to your #2 regulations

I'm sure you have good intentions, but wow, I can't believe some of the things you've typed above.

Jim Smith

ps My responses are just things off the top of my head. If given time, I'm sure I can come up with a lot more to add.

I can see regulating larger snakes but our politicians can't regulate imigration on our borders but you want to trust them to regulate house hold pets... That's just insane. Let's lower taxes and downsize our goverent.. Thats what we need to do instead if expanding it's powers.

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Originally Posted by mdjudson

I can see regulating larger snakes but our politicians can't regulate imigration on our borders but you want to trust them to regulate house hold pets... That's just insane. Let's lower taxes and downsize our goverent.. Thats what we need to do instead if expanding it's powers.

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Yeah, lets regulate larger snakes! But what is a large snake? Who decides?
Let me ask you, why regulate larger snakes? What is so different about a large snake than a "regular" snake? I think it's already been proven that the snakes that inhabit southern Florida weren't release by their owners, but escaped during hurricanes.

How many government grunts is it going to take to regulate the large snakes? What is the danger of transporting a large snake from one state to another? What purpose will this serve? If I move from Maryland to Montana, who is going to ticket me for the illegal move?

Other than the importation ruling, what part of the new laws will REALLY be enforceable?

Don't give up the fight or you're beaten.
Jim Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Yeah, lets regulate larger snakes! But what is a large snake? Who decides?
Let me ask you, why regulate larger snakes? What is so different about a large snake than a "regular" snake? I think it's already been proven that the snakes that inhabit southern Florida weren't release by their owners, but escaped during hurricanes.

How many government grunts is it going to take to regulate the large snakes? What is the danger of transporting a large snake from one state to another? What purpose will this serve? If I move from Maryland to Montana, who is going to ticket me for the illegal move?

Other than the importation ruling, what part of the new laws will REALLY be enforceable?

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EXACTLY.

People say "big snakes need regulation" ...what constitutes a big snake? Blue Beauties get to 11 feet sometimes, but that 11 foot snake is WAY different than the BCI that can get to that same 11 feet but weigh 100x more than the lighter bodied snake.

It isn't the length of a snake that can make it a dangerous animal. Its also weight and body type and no one else except us really even notices the difference between different species of snakes.

I'm completely against regulation because of the reasons listed in this thread.. if you admit you need regulation you've admitted there is a problem.

Should single large snake owners microchip their snakes? Sure. if they want to. My domestic mammal pets are MC'd because its safer for them and me. They are also kept UTD on their shots and vaccines so everyone is safe. If i got a giant (like the olive i want) if there were no adverse effects i'd chip the snake because its SAFER. what if the animal is stolen? What if it escapes--god forbid. The animal can be traced back to its owner but its the DECISION of the owner, NOT of the government.

People that own animals/children/dangerous equipment/guns/dangerous meds etc NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM. Education is the key of doing this.

You all missed the point. The government cannot regulate anything right, but a 10 year old should not be allowed to walk into a pet store and buy a Burmese and right now they can. So there is an issue that needs to be dealt with. How do we deal with that issue I do not know but I would not trust the government to do it.

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Originally Posted by nixiefee

10. Animals must have access to adequate water and shelter at all times, and must be fed regularly to maintain proper weight (as listed on animal type standards).

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Bad idea. Animals are like humans, they all don't have a standard weight. There's always going to be animals that deviate from the norm. For example, my mom has a yorkshire terrier that's about 8 pounds. My friends mom also has a yorkshire terrier, but that one is around four pounds. Neither are fat or underweight. They're simply different types. Then there's the issues of mix breeds. They don't have a set weight/size. Sure, some might have characteristics of both parents, but that's only handy if you know who/what the parents are.

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Originally Posted by mdjudson

You all missed the point. The government cannot regulate anything right, but a 10 year old should not be allowed to walk into a pet store and buy a Burmese and right now they can. So there is an issue that needs to be dealt with. How do we deal with that issue I do not know but I would not trust the government to do it.

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The issue is with the seller of the animals though. Pet stores and breeders should absolutely refuse sales to people who
-cant properly care for the animal
-refuse to educate themselves on proper care
-will use for something bad (like animal fighting or something)

etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdjudson

You all missed the point. The government cannot regulate anything right, but a 10 year old should not be allowed to walk into a pet store and buy a Burmese and right now they can. So there is an issue that needs to be dealt with. How do we deal with that issue I do not know but I would not trust the government to do it.

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You missed my point. The government shouldn't tell a 10 year old he should not be allowed to walk into a pet store and buy a Burmese, it HIS PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY. Stop trying to get Big Brother to raise my kids. Let me do it. Demand others to be parents, not parental units.

Parents need to parents.
Jim Smith

Pet stores should use common sense when selling to minors but they won't. When your livelyhood is dependant on making a sale you would sell your soul to the devil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

The issue is with the seller of the animals though. Pet stores and breeders should absolutely refuse sales to people who
-cant properly care for the animal
-refuse to educate themselves on proper care
-will use for something bad (like animal fighting or something)

etc.

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No, I refuse to believe that anyone is responsible for another person's actions. Look, a gun sitting on a table will never kill anyone. Put 2 people sitting at the table and there's where the problems begin. Proper education is the buyer's responsibility. Would you go out and buy your 16 year old NEW driver a Viper or any other fast car? If the buyer asks questiions that leads you to believe they don't know how to take care of that animal, then don't sell him the animal.

How can a seller determine if someone will take care of the animal?
How do you know if someone will use the animal for something bad?

There are plenty of laws on the books right now that address many of the issues we're discussing. You don't need anymore. You don't need a government grunt acting like an expert.

That's my story!
Jim Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdjudson

Pet stores should use common sense when selling to minors but they won't. When your livelyhood is dependant on making a sale you would sell your soul to the devil.

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Again, it's the parents responsibility to raise their kids. Don't let them buy a snake if you don't know enough about the snake to raise it properly. How many 10 year olds really take care of any pet they get? Dog, Cat, Lizard, or Snake, all need mom or dad to hellp take care of it properly.

Jim Smith

After reading the responses, and looking further into it, I do believe that everyone is correct. The rules and regulations that I listed do sound dumb and overly "Big Brother". After thinking about it, I resend what I said :) It is amazing what seeing it from other peoples eyes can do.

Thank You,

Nixie:D

wow nixie...it is refreshing to see someone that actually does have an open mind. :gj:

Im not sure about any of this. One part of me says...ok lets come up with with a comprimise. Unfortunately it just doesnt stop there. I agree with the poster that said government is already too big. Comprimising with them would only make them bigger.

Another part of me would love mandatory training...it kills me these parents that let their kids or ppl in general that go out and get something they have no idea how to take care of and the animal suffers or dies. But again...you give an inch...ppl take a mile. So with all that said....I have no clue. I do know the government needs to stay away from my pets!! And I wish they would take the time to acutally get realistic information that is scientifically sound. But you can poo in one hand ....and wish in another...you still have a handful of poo wishes. (or however that saying goes)lol

I know my 9 year old wants an albino boa. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!! He is no way or shape ready to take care of something like that and either am I. Kids need to rely on parents to teach them these things. Sure I would love a Black and White Lemur....a big cat....a wallaby....etc. But you have to be realistic as to what you can safely care for ....safely for the animal and the owner.

ok I guess was a bad ideal I didn't want to start a debate I was just looking for examples of some other members regulations in there area to may be creata blue print to help make possible guild lines so when they are shoved down our face the lost is a possible minium..

Like the curernt DE regulations that you can't breed any reptile that requires apermit ( without being a acredited zoo) THis regulation is totally unfair and possible against constution( speelling incase it way off that big fameous paper from national treasure movies lol) Since I do believe that prohibiting a person is surpressing their 1st amendment rights of a form of free speech.


I wanted to come up with somethign that could also be forward to other goverment officals incase the regulations were scrapped and redone. THis would be done as a combine printing of all the regs/ permits reqwuirements from around the world in oure case to show how others are regulated and to prove we all take out pet right seriously.


As for what is consider a big snake ( i think ) this could be done by the need of more than a single person to handle the snake in asafe matter for both owner and snake as a alrge snake cause there no shame in having to ammit to needing help hesll I am disable and ask mom or other to give me a hand al lthe time ( it a pain getting up and down out of the floor as I need waterjug refill to fill bowls and trying to hold open a trash bag, scoop out old shaveing and keep the rats from trying to jump out) it takes 3 hand to hold the bag alone open..