Please help me regain my sanity...

I have a female that is absolutely driving me up the wall. She started locking my mojave male back in august. September/October she did the building/bowl wrapping and voracious eating that is associated with follicle development and preparation for breeding. Mid November she shed, and then December 4th she shed again. I have palpated her, there are 6 lumps inside of her that run from her midsection down to the tail. Now, I think that I have either missed an ovulation or she is on her way. I read that at ovulation follicle size is about 45mm, and these are definitely bigger than that. So I am assuming that 1) I missed an ovulation and 2) Dec 4th was her POS. This means that eggs should have been laid 2 days ago or so. Her body is rounded out, she has a ridgeback, she lays in a coil that varies from loose to tight throughout the day. However she doesnt look as swollen as some pictures Ive seen. I dont know what the hell is going on anymore. The bator is set up just in case, but am I expecting an ovulation or am I expecting eggs? How do I differentiate the two based on follicle size? Please help, Im losing my sanity.

This is a pic from about 3 weeks ago.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._7090762_n.jpg


OH and I forgot to add, she went off feed a month and a week ago and has been refusing the male for the last 3 attempts.

Anyone?

I have one of those females right now also. She is driving me crazy. First I thought she had her POS:confused:, then I though I saw an ovulation:confused:. What I would do is hold her up and let her lower half hang to she if you can see the individual eggs. You won't be able to see them until she lets herself loose though, so, let her calm down a bit. Of course be very gentle while handling her also.

She does look pretty light though, My guess is she is still building.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

She does look pretty light though, My guess is she is still building.

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Either that or she's going to slug out.

Can you get a shot of her stretched out?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Either that or she's going to slug out.

Can you get a shot of her stretched out?

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That could be true also. If you are feeling hard lumps and it is post ovulation then those are most likely slugs.

Hi,

Well the ridged back and rounded body sound like a good sign. ( I think - not exactly mr super experienced about this stuff ).

Two days late isn't out of the ordinary for egg laying.

What does her tail end look like? Does it look like she is seconds away form the largest poop ever?

But more importantly where in the temp range of her cage is she laying?


dr del

From the pic it looks like she might be still building, but it could be the way she is laying there.

boy oh boy do I love my ultrasound right about now. Sorry. It does let me cheat.

I'd love an ultrasound. :wuv:

Do you need to do it with lubricant or underwater or anything or is it as simple as grab snake and apply probe?

Mind you I drive the neighbours cat daft with the temp gun - gawd alone knows what I'd be like with an ultrasound machine. :oops:


dr del

Sometimes they take longer than 30 days, I have heard even weeks longer. They are incubating internally at this point and if temps are low it usually takes longer. You will know when she is about to lay because it gets real low in the tail like she is going to take a real big poop.
I can ususally tell withing 24 hours of laying because swelling gets real low right down to the cloaca and the tail looks tiny in comparison.

Hope this helps.

biggest thing is dont loose hope. Keep at it and im sure youll do fine. Good luck this season.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

She does look pretty light though, My guess is she is still building.

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So what were the two random sheds within 2 weeks of each other?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Either that or she's going to slug out.

Can you get a shot of her stretched out?

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Will try tomorrow for sure. Really hope it isnt slugs.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Well the ridged back and rounded body sound like a good sign. ( I think - not exactly mr super experienced about this stuff ).

Two days late isn't out of the ordinary for egg laying.

What does her tail end look like? Does it look like she is seconds away form the largest poop ever?

But more importantly where in the temp range of her cage is she laying?


dr del

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She is laying ont he warm side, and adjusting herself all day.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Sometimes they take longer than 30 days, I have heard even weeks longer. They are incubating internally at this point and if temps are low it usually takes longer. You will know when she is about to lay because it gets real low in the tail like she is going to take a real big poop.
I can ususally tell withing 24 hours of laying because swelling gets real low right down to the cloaca and the tail looks tiny in comparison.

Hope this helps.

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Ok Ill double check tomorrow, Im at work right now. Thanks everyone for your help so far.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

So what were the two random sheds within 2 weeks of each other?

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According to VPI, snakes actually go through 4 shed cycles during gestation. I think 3 are before actual ovulation(I have the book at home and will check it when I get there).

Is she still locking?

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

According to VPI, snakes actually go through 4 shed cycles during gestation. I think 3 are before actual ovulation(I have the book at home and will check it when I get there).

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Thanks that would be great.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

Is she still locking?

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Nope, wont lock or eat.

Heres some quick pics. She wasnt cooperating much and I couldnt get the pictures of how rounded out her belly was, the second pic is fairly decent. I palped her after taking the pics and the first lump is about 2.5inches, the second 2, third 2, 4th 2, 5th 2 and 6th 1. The 6th is right by her vent, maybe an inch up from it.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs154...._1155216_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs154...._8105621_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs154...._1239867_n.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._2619524_n.jpg

I can faintly see the lumps in the pics. If you are feeling lumps inches from the vent, then those are most likely eggs. I would not worry if they are that far down. They are obviously moving. One thing you could do is to try and move each individual lump back and forth, if they move then in both dirrections I would not worry about eggbinding. You must be very careful doing it though.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I can faintly see the lumps in the pics. If you are feeling lumps inches from the vent, then those are most likely eggs. I would not worry if they are that far down. They are obviously moving. One thing you could do is to try and move each individual lump back and forth, if they move then in both dirrections I would not worry about eggbinding. You must be very careful doing it though.

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Im not worried about eggbinding yet, Ive read a thread about someone waiting 57 days after POS for their female to lay. I have no doubt to them being eggs either, or rather follicles, Im just curious as to what stage Im at really. Id try the moving it back and forth thing but I dont want to stress her out anymore, shes at the point now where she's laying on the hot spot coiled up. The thing I havent determined is if she has ovulated or not, and you say there are 4 shed cycles during gestation, so now I definitely dont know. Until I read that post I was 80% sure she had ovulated. You see where the insanity comes in to play? Lol.

I don't know, this one's weird. I would expect to see more definition of the eggs at this point. I may have missed it, but what was her weight before breeding? What is her weight now? Has she started turning herself over onto her back? When she balls up is she balling up with her tail in the middle or her head in the middle?

Sorry for so many questions, but they could help in this matter.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I don't know, this one's weird. I would expect to see more definition of the eggs at this point. I may have missed it, but what was her weight before breeding? What is her weight now? Has she started turning herself over onto her back? When she balls up is she balling up with her tail in the middle or her head in the middle?

Sorry for so many questions, but they could help in this matter.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

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That's true also. If she is in the later days of egg development you will catch her basking inverted(they also sometimes lay inverted during follicle development).

honestly she doesnt look gravid to me. I would expect to see more swelling near the tail.

Here is a pic of a gravid girl. You can see her spine being pushed up forming a peak.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...readttolay.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...readytolay.jpg

That's what I would have expected to see. The raised spine and the obvious thickness in the tail.

Jim Smith

My female looked more swollen than yours after her ovulation. I wouldn't worry about your girl though. If you feel lumps then she might lay eggs at some point. My girl had her POS on February 23rd, 2009. She didn't lay eggs until May 5th! 70 days after her POS, and I'm sure I didn't miss her POS. She ovulated, had her POS, and then 70 days later, laid eggs.

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Originally Posted by dr del

I'd love an ultrasound. :wuv:

Do you need to do it with lubricant or underwater or anything or is it as simple as grab snake and apply probe?

Mind you I drive the neighbours cat daft with the temp gun - gawd alone knows what I'd be like with an ultrasound machine. :oops:


dr del

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lol on the cats, that is great. I have a people machine lots and lots of $$$$ But it is older so the hospital sold it. Anyway I can use water and lubricant. Gets great pics. I can't wait until my dog is prego. I want to see the pups. With the boas I can see the heart beating in the babies.

I just look at your most recent pics. I would leave her alone now. Let her build her nest. I would worry if you handle her too much, she will not feel safe enough to lay her eggs.

PS. I have found when a female slugs out, she does so before her lay date.

In that one pic she does look swollen at the tail. Give her some time.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I don't know, this one's weird. I would expect to see more definition of the eggs at this point. I may have missed it, but what was her weight before breeding? What is her weight now? Has she started turning herself over onto her back? When she balls up is she balling up with her tail in the middle or her head in the middle?

Sorry for so many questions, but they could help in this matter.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

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She curls up with her tail in the middle for the most part. Her weight before breeding was 1500ish and now she is 1740. I havent observed any laying inverted but Im not home at night and I sleep during the day, and when I go to clean snake tanks and what not shes not inverted.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

honestly she doesnt look gravid to me. I would expect to see more swelling near the tail.

Here is a pic of a gravid girl. You can see her spine being pushed up forming a peak.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

That's what I would have expected to see. The raised spine and the obvious thickness in the tail.

Jim Smith

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Peaked like this?
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._5532693_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs154...._3519036_n.jpg

I would suggest what someone else has said. Leave her alone and just wait it out. She'll drop the eggs eventually.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I would suggest what someone else has said. Leave her alone and just wait it out. She'll drop the eggs eventually.

Good Luck!
Jim Smith

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Lol thanks that's where Im at. Just trying to eliminate the guess work I suppose.

She will coil up like a cinnamon bun. Then all the sudden after you think you have waited for months she will look like one of those Egyptson pyramids, and under that will be eggs.

did she lay her eggs yet?

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Originally Posted by boasandballs

did she lay her eggs yet?

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Nope shes still a cinnamon bun laying on the hot side.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

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Originally Posted by Alice

Good luck and let us know what happens.

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I will for sure. Im kind of over it. What will be, will be.

It seames to take forever, but sounds like she is gravid and will lay soon. Or with in a month (don't watch the clock it will make you nuts)

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I will for sure. Im kind of over it. What will be, will be.

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*fingers crossed* :gj::salute::P