Super Spider

Has it been proven that this is a lethal gene? or are they just a dominant trait so there is no super. I have seen some people say that you will loose one in four eggs on average as those would have been supers I wondered how many of you have tried spider x spider and seen this as a result? Or is it just a rumor that someone made up and people believe? I know its not a good idea to breed spider x spider due to the neurological issue they have its better to out-cross more than to breed them together but I would like to see if it really is a lethal combo.

I do believe there is a supposed super on ks right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2kdime

I do believe there is a supposed super on ks right now.

---

Can't find it now, but I saw that one for 600...if that's the one you mean. Thought about giving it a shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2kdime

I do believe there is a supposed super on ks right now.

---

Did it look like a normal spider or how did they come to the conclusion that it was a super. I am assuming it was bred to a normal and produced all spiders.

The picture is of what I believe to be an IMG spider....the IMG is completely random and most of them are born normal...shed and pretty much turn grey...then slowly regain color...usually a brighter yellow odd pigmented color. I hear there's a super spider...but it looks like a normal spider...nobody else seems to be trying the breeding so the rumors we have are what stands. Wanna know for sure...do the breeding :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason79

Has it been proven that this is a lethal gene? or are they just a dominant trait so there is no super.

---

just a note, something has to happen to make it not have a super form, thus making it dominant. Spiders are heterozygous so they carry a Spider gene and a normal gene. If both parents gave the spider gene to the offspring, making it homozygous, something would have to happen to it to make it not exist, or it would not be considered dominate. thus it must be lethal, or reabsorbed, or something.

take the super woma for example, it has a lethal super form but it does hatch and live for a bit some woma is considered co-dominant, since the pearl does exist for a short while.

only way I can think of to have a non-lethal dominate gene would be if it was sex linked, but I don't think theres any sex linked snake morphs. mayb theres other ways?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

just a note, something has to happen to make it not have a super form, thus making it dominant. Spiders are heterozygous so they carry a Spider gene and a normal gene. If both parents gave the spider gene to the offspring, making it homozygous, something would have to happen to it to make it not exist, or it would not be considered dominate. thus it must be lethal, or reabsorbed, or something.

take the super woma for example, it has a lethal super form but it does hatch and live for a bit some woma is considered co-dominant, since the pearl does exist for a short while.

only way I can think of to have a non-lethal dominate gene would be if it was sex linked, but I don't think theres any sex linked snake morphs. mayb theres other ways?

---

Have you proven that it is lethal ? and if you theroy is correct what about pinstripes?

I heard it was a lethal gene too, but have yet to find anyone who can confirm that from first-hand experience. I haven't exactly tried very hard, though. I probably talk to Kevin at NERD on a weekly basis, but never think to ask. lol

It's either lethal, or it's not very different for a "super". Either way, I think it's probably not worth doing a spider x spider pairing for that reason alone.

That spider from a spider x spider pairing...I was thinking about buying it, just in case the guy hit on some subtle co-dom (like a vanilla) where the het version isn't all that obvious, or a recessive.

Then I realized I've bought bumblebees for about the same price, and we know those are genetic. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason79

Have you proven that it is lethal ? and if you theroy is correct what about pinstripes?

---

talk to Brian bhb, hes pretty sure hes proven pinstripe to be co-dominant, it looks exactly like a normal pinstripe, just babies it throws are all pins, not 50%. I think he wants to write up something formal and collect his data, which with all the other stuff he does like snakebytes and python ban info, i doubt we will see for a while. im going to try it as soon as i can.

the thing is you can't 100% prove it being lethal, i think the proof is in the fact that 1999 is when the spider morph was produced (by kevin from NERD so he would be the best to talk to) and we have yet to see a super spider in 10 years and im pretty sure, like every other morph in the entire snake world, people were trying to make a super.

spider x spider breedings are still being done today, i know someone who is doing a bumblebee x bumblebee breeding this year... ill let you know the results, but even if theres no dead eggs it doesn't prove a thing, he might just not hit on a super.

it might not be lethal, the supers might get reabsorb even b4 their laid for some reason and that would be even harder to prove, you can speculate all you want, but one of these 2 things are fact.

1. Super spider is the most allusive morph in the ball python world
2. It doesn't exist due to the unlimited reasons we can speculate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

talk to Brian bhb, hes pretty sure hes proven pinstripe to be co-dominant, it looks exactly like a normal pinstripe, just babies it throws are all pins, not 50%. I think he wants to write up something formal and collect his data, which with all the other stuff he does like snakebytes and python ban info, i doubt we will see for a while. im going to try it as soon as i can.

the thing is you can't 100% prove it being lethal, i think the proof is in the fact that 1999 is when the spider morph was produced (by kevin from NERD so he would be the best to talk to) and we have yet to see a super spider in 10 years and im pretty sure, like every other morph in the entire snake world, people were trying to make a super.

spider x spider breedings are still being done today, i know someone who is doing a bumblebee x bumblebee breeding this year... ill let you know the results, but even if theres no dead eggs it doesn't prove a thing, he might just not hit on a super.

it might not be lethal, the supers might get reabsorb even b4 their laid for some reason and that would be even harder to prove, you can speculate all you want, but one of these 2 things are fact.

1. Super spider is the most allusive morph in the ball python world
2. It doesn't exist due to the unlimited reasons we can speculate

---

Or 3. its like pinstripe and the super looks like a normal spider.
I just made this poll to see how many people have actually tried it. I have no doubt when spiders first came out it was attempted by quite a few people with no proof yet. But I hate when people just kinda guess at something and then tell people that it must be the truth without having ever tried to prove it. I don't even have a male spider I have 2 females so I have no intention of trying it myself either but I also dont tell people that its a lethal gene because I don't know. Maybe someone that has tried this multiple times will chime in and we can see their results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason79

Or 3. its like pinstripe and the super looks like a normal spider.
I just made this poll to see how many people have actually tried it. I have no doubt when spiders first came out it was attempted by quite a few people with no proof yet. But I hate when people just kinda guess at something and then tell people that it must be the truth without having ever tried to prove it. I don't even have a male spider I have 2 females so I have no intention of trying it myself either but I also dont tell people that its a lethal gene because I don't know. Maybe someone that has tried this multiple times will chime in and we can see their results.

---

3 is a given, i guarantee you IF the super spider exists, it does look like the normal spider. thats why it would be allusive. evidence seems to be pointing it just doesn't exist for some reason, calling it lethal mayb be jumping to conclusions, but who cares just an adjective, point is there isn't a publicly known super spider

I have a feeling that this poll was created because of a claim I made in the killer bee thread.

Before I posted my claim in that thread I read posts in a google search for about an hour (Before that I had seen may people say that spider x spider was not a good pairing.). I found a thread in which an alan1 (I think) posted strong statements about the death of eggs in a spider x spider pairing.

I do not have personal experience with this.

After someone questioned my claim I decided to do more research. I researched posts for another four hours. I tried to find the original one I read but must not have used the same search inquiry as I couldn't find it again.

After all the reading I did I found no conclusive evidence either way. Most people making claims did so because of the lack of evidence.

I do find it strange that after so much time and so many combinations with the spider that there isn't clear evidence either way. The biggest road block I have found is that because spiders have a wobble and a spider pairing might increase the wobble. It seems like that should have been proven also, but again I have found no evidence either way.

I retract what I said in the other thread only because there isn't any proof either way.

I made this poll to try and see if anyone here actually had tried and proven that it was a lethal gene. I figured with this many people and the number of spider combo's out there somebody would have proven it either way but so far it seems like nobody is trying it.
I have found other things on the Internet that said it was a lethal gene too but they didn't show any kind of data like number of times they attempted it and number of eggs lost and as we all know not everything you find on the net is true But the more people that put it out there the more people will read it and believe it to be true without ever really proving it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason79

I made this poll to try and see if anyone here actually had tried and proven that it was a lethal gene. I figured with this many people and the number of spider combo's out there somebody would have proven it either way but so far it seems like nobody is trying it.
I have found other things on the Internet that said it was a lethal gene too but they didn't show any kind of data like number of times they attempted it and number of eggs lost and as we all know not everything you find on the net is true But the more people that put it out there the more people will read it and believe it to be true without ever really proving it.

---

what are you trying to prove? if a super spider exists or if its lethal? and what would be proof to you? i know for me the fact that there isn't one 10 years later is enough for me. what do you want data from? 1 clutch 3 clutch 10 clutch 50 clutch? theres always going to be a small chance it never gets hit on. so you can't 100% prove it.

To believe there is no Super Spider because no one posted otherwise on this poll is to also believe that Kevin McCurley from NERD is a complete moron. It also makes the assumption that everyone that paid thousands of dollars for the early Spider offspring are also complete morons.

I don't personally know Kevin McCurley. I don't know all the people that were willing to shell out thousands (probably tens of thousands) for some of the original Spider offspring. With thousands of dollars at risk, I will "assume" that most, if not all, knew what the hell they were doing.

With every new morph, there is always a race to be first. Spider would be no exception. I'm sure almost all of the first handful of Spider females were all bred with Spider males in the race to be the first to produce a Super Spider.

After multiple Spider to Spider breeding in the beginning, no obvious visual Super Spider was proven out. That still left the possibility of the Super Spider looked just like a regular Spider. With all the Spider X Spider pairing that were done, going by odds 25% of the Spiders from these pairing would have been Super Spiders. Even if you aim low and say 10% were Super Spiders, that is still multiple Super Spider offspring out there.

Most, if not all, of the offspring from early Spider X Spider pairing have been bred again. It wouldnt' be that hard to figure out that all the babies they throw all contain the Spider gene.

So either A) Those with the Super Spiders are being super secret or B) There is no Super Spider.

This question comes up again every few months and some "new guy" is always going to prove the "old guys" wrong. I'm sure the "old guys" get a chuckle out of this and are more than happy to see there Spider to these "new guys".

Theres no authentic documented paper published by an accredited scientific journal so there is no proof it doesn't exist, there for it must exist.

case closed

Good poll. It shows how little interest there is in breeding spider X spider even though so many of us could now afford to do so. Unfortunately we may never know how many possible homozygous spiders where made early on. I know TSK tried at least one year more recently.

Just to clear up, "dominant" mutations like pinstripe have homozygous animals. What defines pinstripe as dominant is that the homozygous pinstripe is the same mutation as the heterozygous one. Both have the pinstripe phenotype. The way the homozygous pinstripe was proven was by producing a large number of only pinstripe offspring. But just because the mutation is classified as dominant when the heterozygous version of a pinstripe is bred to a non pinstripe the eggs still have 50/50 chance of getting the pinstripe mutation. It’s only the homozygous animals that produce 100% of the same offspring.

If the spider mutation is lethal when homozygous I believe that would technically be a co-dominant mutation because there is a difference between the phenotype of the hets (spiders) and the homozygous (dead).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason79

... But I hate when people just kinda guess at something and then tell people that it must be the truth without having ever tried to prove it...

---

Unless there is a proven homozygous spider we don't know about and it looks and acts like the normal heterozygous spiders then claims that spider is a dominant mutations where just a guess spread as rumor. I might have been the first to publicly guess that spider might be homozygous lethal around 2003 or so but I've always stated that it's just a possibility and not proven (or actually provably).

What about this page? http://www.ballpython.ca/what_get/dominant.html

It displays that the super is just homozygous and not really a super form. It has no different look. I guess when I buy my next spider I will buy one from a spider x spider clutch and see what happens to the results. It should be possible according to the laws or genetics. Maybe it hasn't been done very often because spider x spider clutches only yield spiders and normals, but if you breed a spider to something else, like a pastel, you can get bees which would make you way more money and be much cooler than just a spider or a pastel.