seems social...

did an experiment and made my 120 gallon absolutely identical on both sides with 2 balls. every night i separate them and every morning they end up together. sometimes one goes to the other and vise versa. seems social...

Do you have any pics of this setup? What kind of heat are you using and what kind of controls?

2 same uths on same dimmer with digital therm. please take my word when i say absolutely identical...

Are they male and female or same sex?

these particular ones are both female...

Ball pythons are not naturally social animals.

I believe that when they are curling up with each other, one is actually trying to gain heat from the other.

thats why this is puzzling...

They are just both competing for the best spot at the same time. Not having a hug-fest :rofl:

wish it was that simple but both spots are "completely" identical so there is no best spot and i separate them every night and one find the other or vice versa.

I agree it's interesting but again. When we are looking at the best habitat for an animal, reproduction of it's natural habitat is the key. Ball's just don't hang out and socialize in the wild that I am aware of. This may be both balls have found the optimal spot in the cage, between the two identical sides. It may be any number of things but I don't think it proves out that this is best for the snake. I think it's a human idea that we project on the snake. We would be lonely. We would want someone there with us. We are herd animals, we come together. That isn't what happens with our balls, in their own original world however.

Can you share data you've collected during this scientific experiment? Air temps, hides, belly temps, humidity, etc... Also please post the exact procedure you've taken during this experiment. Any other observations? Was one laying on top of the other in the hide? If that was the case, was it the same one? How long was this experiment conducted and was there a preference for a particular hide? What kind of hides are you using? You're going to have to be more specific instead of just stating to "take your word."

im going to track who i move and who follows for the next few nights because it doesnt seem to matter which identical side they end up in which would put the best spot theory to rest. really weird...

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Originally Posted by MarkieJ

Can you share data you've collected during this scientific experiment? Air temps, hides, belly temps, humidity, etc... Also please post the exact procedure you've taken during this experiment. Any other observations? Was one laying on top of the other in the hide? If that was the case, was it the same one? How long was this experiment conducted and was there a preference for a particular hide? What kind of hides are you using? You're going to have to be more specific instead of just stating to "take your word."

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ambient 83, hide belly 92, humidity 55 for one week. hides are exact rock molds. all i would do is pull one from the hide and let them slide and settle into the other hide before bedtime and every single morning they would be together but never on top of each other.

i could just give you fake data if i wanted to deceive you. in fact youre really taking everyones word on here so please take mine...

Just a few tips, document everything and keep everything consistent. Separate them at the same time every night and take the temps inside each of the hides before adding them together. Place them at the same place every time. Feed them the same size prey and at the same time (hopefully not together in the enclosure). Take pictures and share them with us. Do this over the course of a month (preferably longer). Also the snakes should be the same size and age.

Housing BPs in the same enclosure is a touchy subject. You'll have to share data to back up your claims, and still then I would expect you should be prepared to defend yourself. :sabduel:

ill keep you guys posted but not feeling the need to defend myself...

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Originally Posted by chasingtime

i could just give you fake data if i wanted to deceive you. in fact youre really taking everyones word on here so please take mine...

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I'm not taking anyone's word here to heart. I've read good arguments from both sides of the fence. What you're doing can turn out to be a pretty cool experiment if you take the right steps and your animals are doing well. :gj:

Balls have been known to share burrows in the wild. Especially during breeding season (which is now)

its already cool to me. besides it doesnt meet the same size snake and prey requirements stated. im kinda just doing this for myself and thought i'd share what i noticed but it somehow turned into me being responsible to you guys to turn it into a scientific experiment. im just a guy who enjoys his snakes. a bit sorry i posted it now...

Whatever the cause is, it isn't social behavior. They don't have mechanisms in their behavior for social behavior.

That doesn't mean that they are ignoring each other. It could be competition, it could be sharing warmth, it could even be a sense of security seeing another python.. "Hey, that python is hiding somewhere, I bet that means it is safe".

They MIGHT be ignoring each other as best as they can.

My personal guess is that they are seeking as much heat as they can. A 120G glass aquarium is freaking hard to heat. Another note: one ball python remaining on top of the other is a common sign of a python asserting dominance.

please read the whole thread...

Well I find this very interesting and I am glad you posted it. I would love to hear how it continues on.

I think we need to keep in mind too that there are some pretty goofy pythons out there that have their own personalities. Maybe these two do like being together. Hey, I have one that thinks she is a person and does everything a python should not want to do.

from what MarkieJ said above it doesnt seem worth it to peruse further because my parameters arent tight enough. one snake is larger and older and eats larger prey and i dont want to have 2 hot hides for a month or longer anyway. too stressful to not have a cool side hide for that long...

I guess I don't see the logic that because they are in the same hide they must want to be together. Are they hanging out and watching movies? They could very easily be dominating each other or just refusing to give up the heat. I can't imagine the hides are properly sized if two snakes are fitting in one so maybe it's to feel more secure. I don't see any positive to keeping snakes together, only a few cons, biggest being spreading disease.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I guess I don't see the logic that because they are in the same hide they must want to be together. Are they hanging out and watching movies? They could very easily be dominating each other or just refusing to give up the heat. I can't imagine the hides are properly sized if two snakes are fitting in one so maybe it's to feel more secure. I don't see any positive to keeping snakes together, only a few cons, biggest being spreading disease.

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it was an experiment with 2 of my established healthy snakes. you guys just sucked the fun out of this. i think this was unnecessary "Are they hanging out and watching movies?" are there any sites where you can just share ideas without being a scientist or an expert and without feeling ridiculed?

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Originally Posted by chasingtime

it was an experiment with 2 of my established healthy snakes. you guys just sucked the fun out of this. i think this was unnecessary "Are they hanging out and watching movies?" are there any sites where you can just share ideas without being a scientist or an expert and without feeling ridiculed?

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Housing snakes together has a lot of possible dangerous repercussions, so people are naturally going to ridicule you for doing so. Even if they are healthy now, the chances that one had a internal parasite that you didn't know about and they both now have it is a possibility. Ball pythons dominate each other by laying on each other, which often causes stress to one of them. This stress can easily lead to a respiratory infection which will spread to both animals and lead to two veterinary bills.
Also, because one of the snakes is larger than the other, cannibalism is possible.

Many large scale breeders who have thousands of animals have found it best to keep them all separated except for breeding purposes because of the possible issues. There have not been any recorded benefits of social behavior between ball pythons, and because stress related issues are a result, it's best to conclude that they do not enjoy each others company.

If you want to do a consistent experiment, you would need the animals to be the same age, size, sex, and both vet checked for any infections. Recording data such as which snake lays on top of the other, which hide is favored by either snake, and the rate of change (who moves and who stays?). You would also need a general divider with a small opening for them to get through, and each side contained a warm and cool side with two hides per ball python, all identical proper non-log hides.

You know I think a healthy desire to investigate is cool and I hope that nothing I said made you feel you need to defend yourself. I am worried that a snake will get hurt of sick from stress but we all have to go our own way sometimes.

thanks guys. i appreciate when its put that way. sounds like good advice even being a temporary experiment. ill put them back in their tanks...

After reading all of it, it seems to me that the OP wanted people to comment on the sociability of these snakes. You didn't say "So I thought this would be something new, non-experimental for my snakes." You actually seemed to attempt to invalidate a "cultural norm" among BPs that it's one and done in a tub/tank/etc. You chose to name the thread "seems social" and even ended the original post saying the same thing. You chose the ending (the most stressed of any comments/paper/article/what-have-you as the place to say "seems social."

I'm not surprised that people commented about their believed lack of sociability. Plus, you're not new to the site, so I can't see you being surprised that people reacted as they did (none seriously negative if I might add.)

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Originally Posted by kelevra

After reading all of it, it seems to me that the OP wanted people to comment on the sociability of these snakes. You didn't say "So I thought this would be something new, non-experimental for my snakes." You actually seemed to attempt to invalidate a "cultural norm" among BPs that it's one and done in a tub/tank/etc. You chose to name the thread "seems social" and even ended the original post saying the same thing. You chose the ending (the most stressed of any comments/paper/article/what-have-you as the place to say "seems social."

I'm not surprised that people commented about their believed lack of sociability. Plus, you're not new to the site, so I can't see you being surprised that people reacted as they did (none seriously negative if I might add.)

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na, just wanted to share something i thought was a cool observation with no malicious intent. guys, this site says its the friendliest online community for all your herping needs. why am i being attacked and accused? besides you are wrong, i am new as of about 17 days ago and not feeling very welcome. i am surprised at your reaction. it "seems unsocial"...

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Originally Posted by chasingtime

na, just wanted to share something i thought was a cool observation with no malicious intent. guys, this site says its the friendliest online community for all your herping needs. why am i being attacked and accused? besides you are wrong, i am new as of about 17 days ago and not feeling very welcome. i am surprised at your reaction. it "seems unsocial"...

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No where did I get the impression that someone was attacking you.

Co-habitation is a highly debated subject on this community. The majority will agree that it is not a good idea. I personally don't have a problem with co habitation as long as you do it right. I am under the impression that you were doing this just as an experiment, which is interesting to me and I am glad that you posted it. However, it has not convinced me that ball pythons are social.

actually i had to keep these 2 together for a couple nights and noticed that they kept ending up together on either the cool or warm side and the one that was in there originally didnt move as frequent prior so i tried the 2 identical sides idea to experiment/observe what might occur. i promise i was just sharing something i thought was cool.

I'm right with you man, some people on here were just trying to make the little test into a full blown Bill Nye the Scienceguy show. I really don't think Ball Pythons are social and like said before, if the only results are negative, why do it?

I think people were legitimately interested in a real test done on this subject since most people wouldn't like to do one themselves. I personally don't want to risk the health of my animals by co-habitating them other than for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I think people were legitimately interested in a real test done on this subject since most people wouldn't like to do one themselves. I personally don't want to risk the health of my animals by co-habitating them other than for breeding.

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some were :)