Hets w/visual traits/ Breeders opinions

How many breeders out there have noticed a trend with certain hets looking different from normals? Something a trained eye can pick out? For instance.. All the het caramels I have seen seem to have more blushing and lighter eyes. Het pieds often have railroad tracks and darker markings.

And the most curious one of all.. I know a breeder who can pick out a het clown 100% of the time if given a choice between normals and het clowns. This is something he actually does at shows to test his self. They always have a lower scale count and more of a rough scaled look along the spine. Kind of like the look of a pinstripes scales. Not to mention pastel het clowns almost always have connecting head stripes making a circle around the back of the head. Like a super enchi.

I know this cant be used to positively identify any het but how many of you have noticed a visual difference with your hets? This is just to see how common of an occurance this is. Years ago breeders were looking for subtle similarities when pairing up "normals" to discover more recessive traits after all.

I've noticed het clowns tend to make morphs and normals look "better." When we have for example pastels p.h. clown the brighter, nicer looking pastels prove out a lot more often than "normal" pastels.

I have to agree while not a sure way of picking them I think some traits do alter the look of their het offspring. Het pieds are the best example. IMO

Het pieds tend to have a more "melty" pattern.

BHB lines of het clowns tend to be high yellow and reduced pattern.

Huh.. Im going to have to compare some more notes with my own hets. This is one of those things where im going to end up taking more pictures of the hets that I own and compare them to other balls het for the same gene. Things like this really interest me.

Has anyone else ever noticed the scale difference for het clowns? I didnt notice it until it was brought to my attention. Then I was in the snake room comparing all the snakes scales LOL!

Oh and Mike at outback.. I too have noticed the het clowns seem to add something to the offspring when they are bred to normals or pastels etc..

I think the only one I haven't seen any visual traits for is the regular albino.

Years ago I read some threads about some het ghosts shedding clear like homozygous ghosts. So when I picked up my het ghost male from a breeder with a fairly large ghost project it happened to be cleaning day so he went through his cages and sure enough found several of his hets had clear patternless sheds. The het male I bought did have pattern in his shed but was rather bright. I bred him once and almost exactly half of the babies where noticeably brighter than the other half. Unfortunately only one of the bright ones was female. She was the only one I kept and bred but sure enough she proved het ghost. So, not much of a sample size but maybe het ghosts tend to shed clear and/or be brighter colored animals.

I'd love to hear more about the het clowns. I own a huge 1996 VPI produced female presumed normal that is nice and bright colored.

http://snakemorphs.com/images/f96nvpiMed.jpg

I suppose that was way too early for possible het clown FEMALES to have been sold as normals but she did produce a very interesting looking daughter once that looked a lot like some unusual het clowns that where posted. Just on the chance I sent her off this winter for her 2nd attempt at breeding with a clown male (no eggs the first time, 2003 I think it was). She has been a sporadic producer but has produced as many as 13 eggs the few times she decided to go so if both she and the long time bachelor clown male both feel like it this year I should know one way or the other.

All of my het clowns are bright as hatchlings but seem to darken to more normal looking as they grow. The main thing I have noticed is that all of mine that have proven out have a strong white outline around the alien heads in the pattern. When I proved out my poss hets this season every one that I thought would prove out did end up proving.
Here is an example of one that proved out last season.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN3257.jpg

Yes! And look at its scales along the spine. How they are bigger and spaced far apart in areas. My 2 het clowns look exactly like that. I just went back and looked at them again and they even have a few sporadic white scales along the spine, the same thick white outline along the markings and lots of white flames coming from the belly. Both of mine are in shed but i'll post pics soon.

This is something we have always looked for in hets and its always been fun chosing poss hets we believe will prove out.

Every Het Hypo we own or have produced has a spot on the head, not always a lighter overall look but this spot is always prominent in the middle of the head. We have also proved out poss. hets that we believed would prove by the head spot, have two more poss hets to go that look the same. Most het Caramels we have seen have alot of blushing and high golds, we picked a poss. het out of a group a while back by these marks and hope to prove her out this year. Het Pieds do seem to have melting patterns and seem to have darker patterns, train tracks appear on all of ours but we have seen proven adults without them so its just a common thing but not for sure. We have actually noticed that Het. Albinos seem to have a rougher skin and have a harder time shedding than normals and other morphs, not sure if this is always the case but it seems prominent within our hets. Now I would guess most of these are just line bred traits as all hets come from one or two original animals from Africa and are bred back together, so it will appear stronger in some animals, but none the less a sign. As for ringers in het pieds, I believe this is the same effect as a paradox and the gene is dominant in these skin cells allowing the pied to express itself within this small space. Its actually believed that Paradox animals are almost always Hets. and not the Homozygous form, as there was a Paradox Albino bred to a Homozygous Albino and hets were produced. Usually normal is a dominant allele to one Recessive allele but I believe in these cases in the areas of paradox the skin cells had a somewhat chimera effect when the skin cells were produced, but the overall genome of the animal was still a heterozygous recessive.
Long post but throwing out our experience with these markers and just letting out some loose thoughts.
Hope this is what you were looking for, its late and I may have screwed up somewhere with wording but hopefully you get the General idea.

This is my 50% het clown male, Can anyone see anything that indicates he is a het? He does have that bigger scale thing along his spine.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...thers001-2.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...thers003-1.jpg

Let's say a Clown has a definite "marker" that shows up in all normal offspring and even when matched with other morphs.

With that said, is it possible that Clown is actually a subtle co-dom morph and what we know as a "clown" is actually the super form of the morph ??

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Originally Posted by JayCee

Let's say a Clown has a definite "marker" that shows up in all normal offspring and even when matched with other morphs.

With that said, is it possible that Clown is actually a subtle co-dom morph and what we know as a "clown" is actually the super form of the morph ??

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Thats a really good question. I wasnt even going to get into recessives but I now have 3 different pairs of hets for different things and the more I learn about them the more interesting it is.

Consider the subtle co-doms like sables. There are a handful of these that have a super form. But For most of the recessives maybe it just the gene expressing itself in some way that only those that work with them can notice.

It seems like alot of them do have common traits that are more likely to show up in certain lines. Your line might have a consistant trait that every het has while my line might have a completely different consistant trait.

well if with different hets u notice traits do u notice anything about het albinos cause i just bought one and want to know if what i got is what i paid for

Thanks

Honestly with most hets there is no 100% positive way to identify it other than breeding it to an albino, but alot of breeders can pick out the hets in a pile of normals if its something they have worked with alot. Look at the other posts. Someone siad albinos tend to have a more rough texture and have a harder time shedding. Maybe this will apply to yours.

So would you guys say this looks like a het Caramel? She is definately het for something, but, we don't know what it is. A buddy picked a female up from a reputable breeder and she laid eggs. He forgot what the breeder said she was bred to. What do you guys think. By the way, the group I have is 1.3 and they all look the same when it comes to blushing and colors.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...d/P1000424.jpg

Here is a pic of the male...

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...d/P1000423.jpg

I dont think you're going to get anyone to say yes thats a het. This is more of a comparison thread. Like even if you bred het to het you couldnt sell the normal babies as 100% hets since it all boils down to percentages and recessive genes. Even if you are positive as the breeder that those normals look exactly like every other het you have proved out.

BUT, that snake you have pictured does look alot like my het caramels. What do the eyes look like? Mine have lighter eyes than a normal. A bronze tint to the top color of the eye.

I believe there are quite alot of hets out there that no one even knows about but what are the chances of breeding 2 "normals" that look identical and getting something else?

Im having this dinker issue with my biggest normal female. She was bred to a pastel last year but the only baby that looked different (out of all pastels) was a female. Kind of a bummer that I cant breed back but I'll keep trying to figure it out.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

So would you guys say this looks like a het Caramel? She is definately het for something, but, we don't know what it is. A buddy picked a female up from a reputable breeder and she laid eggs. He forgot what the breeder said she was bred to. What do you guys think. By the way, the group I have is 1.3 and they all look the same when it comes to blushing and colors.

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Sure does look like my het caramel. My male has the same blushing and golden color, white around the alien heads and a few flames on the sides, but as everyone else said, you never know until you prove them out :)

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I dont think you're going to get anyone to say yes thats a het. This is more of a comparison thread. Like even if you bred het to het you couldnt sell the normal babies as 100% hets since it all boils down to percentages and recessive genes. Even if you are positive as the breeder that those normals look exactly like every other het you have proved out.

BUT, that snake you have pictured does look alot like my het caramels. What do the eyes look like? Mine have lighter eyes than a normal. A bronze tint to the top color of the eye.

I believe there are quite alot of hets out there that no one even knows about but what are the chances of breeding 2 "normals" that look identical and getting something else?

Im having this dinker issue with my biggest normal female. She was bred to a pastel last year but the only baby that looked different (out of all pastels) was a female. Kind of a bummer that I cant breed back but I'll keep trying to figure it out.

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It's obvious that nobody can say it is indeed a het without knowing the genetics. After comparing a bunch of pics of this group and some hets online, I have come to think they look a lot like het Caramels also. I have 2 of the females breeding this year, so it is only a matter of time. It is going to be kind of interesting to see if they come out Caramels though. Sorry to highjack your thread. Back on topic, I think all hets have some kind of visual markers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

A buddy picked a female up from a reputable breeder and she laid eggs. He forgot what the breeder said she was bred to.

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Could it have been genetic stripe?

Anyone have any theories on identifying the more likely het stripes out of possible het stripes?

Randy,

Would a single males offspring from mult. clutches that had 100% consistent/reliable markers(ALL offspring have them) make that gene codom by defintion. Afterall, the odds of 1 in 4 to make a visual are the same for both simple recessive and codom(super)?

I am working with 2 males ( 1 CH and one WC) that I believe to be SUPERS based solely on their offspring from MULTIPLE clutches. It seems that most people assume that a visual WC or CH is either homozygous recessive or dominant. Nobody seems to consider a codominant animal. I know that VISUAL dominant animals being gatthered up would keep them from finding "their kind", breeding, and producing a super.

I know you can decipher what i am getting at Randy.:gj:

Am I way off. My animals are telling me I am not -- I think:confused:

It's certainly possible for a homozygous co-dominant to come from the wild. RDR's Platy is close. I believe it's a combo of two different mutations of the same gene. Not exactly the same as an imported ivory or super pastel but close.

The thing is that you would expect the heterozygous versions of your co-dominant mutation to be much more common and likely get imported and named first. But if the heterozygous co-dominants are subtle and/or maybe they come from a place where they don't commonly export (and only your two homozygous males where extreme enough to make it out) I could see it happening.

For whatever reason we never heard of what ended up named lesser (the heterozygous with normal co-dom) before platy. I think there where some just plain lessers imported later but the first to get named was what should have been much more rare; the more striking platy combo ahead of what should have been the more common lesser. Also, there was a rumor of a white wild caught ball python passing through the US on its way to Asia before any cb leucistic or their hets. Not sure how verifiable that is but it was supposedly a young male. I always wondered what it was (ivory?) if real and if it got “accidently” housed with any females before shipping out.

I guess the proof is in the breeding. If you have produced enough babies with normals and they all have the same distinctive look I would think you are onto something and may well have wild bred homozygous co-doms. Hope you are close to reproducing the homozygous version like dad as that would really remove any doubt.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

It's certainly possible for a homozygous co-dominant to come from the wild. RDR's Platy is close. I believe it's a combo of two different mutations of the same gene. Not exactly the same as an imported ivory or super pastel but close.

The thing is that you would expect the heterozygous versions of your co-dominant mutation to be much more common and likely get imported and named first. But if the heterozygous co-dominants are subtle and/or maybe they come from a place where they don't commonly export (and only your two homozygous males where extreme enough to make it out) I could see it happening.

For whatever reason we never heard of what ended up named lesser (the heterozygous with normal co-dom) before platy. I think there where some just plain lessers imported later but the first to get named was what should have been much more rare; the more striking platy combo ahead of what should have been the more common lesser. Also, there was a rumor of a white wild caught ball python passing through the US on its way to Asia before any cb leucistic or their hets. Not sure how verifiable that is but it was supposedly a young male. I always wondered what it was (ivory?) if real and if it got “accidently” housed with any females before shipping out.

I guess the proof is in the breeding. If you have produced enough babies with normals and they all have the same distinctive look I would think you are onto something and may well have wild bred homozygous co-doms. Hope you are close to reproducing the homozygous version like dad as that would really remove any doubt.

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Fairly close I think Randy? I produced 3 large clutches from my WC(bush baby) male x normal females in 08. They yielded 13.12 offspring that ALL have the same suble appearance at first glance AND multiple distinct markers upon closer inspection as well -- ALL 25!!

I held back the 12 girls and a boy as insurance. The oldest 4 females of the 12 will be 2 years in April and at least 3 will be up to size. I will begin pairing them in March I suspect. Time will tell.

Worst case -- I will have a dozen REAL pretty normals. ;)

this is the most interesting thread I have read in a while. makes you really think as to weather a gene is actually simple recessive or co-dom however subtle the traits may be...maybe we've been looking at all the established recessive genes all wrong...especially since we've seen a lot of unusual stuff come out of slightly odd "normal" looking animals..isn't it all theory after all?...is there really a way we can prove indefinitely as to weather something is simple recessive or co-dom/dom?...this really makes you rethink everything we know about bp genetics...keep this thread going!...:gj:

There is but that would require genetic testing. Of every known morph out there. Dom, co-com, recessive and other. Im surprised there isnt a genetic scientist out there who hasn't heard of all this and taken an interest.

I still need to get good pics up of my hets so we can do more comparisons.

was just thinking...my het ghosts are have the head spot and are quite high contrast and have a more defined patern and are a bit brighter than my norms..but my mojave het gost looks just like my mojave that is het for nothing...it gets more complicated when you got different genes going on that could disguise these het "markers" especially now that there is a lot more co-dom and recessive combos...some of these markers are just going to be lost in all thats going on...

I was wondering if someone has noticed anything different about spiders that are het. ghost

Hmm, I hope you're right about the het clowns having white highlight :P This is my 50% het boy. He doesn't go along with the light color that people look for in a het clown, he's quite dark. Either way I love his dark color, he's got a lovely sheen to him.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...Isis/018-4.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...IMG_0574-1.jpg

Here's one for the OP
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...is/011-4-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Could it have been genetic stripe?

Anyone have any theories on identifying the more likely het stripes out of possible het stripes?

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At this point it is possible for them to carry any genes. I have just found that through comparison, they look like het caramels. Hopefully one of these girls will take this season for me.:) I will definately post pics if they do!

Pictures of some of my hets. Compare traits with your hets.

100% Het Caramel pair. They are light in color, have light burgandy heads, abberant melty pattern similer to many het pieds..
~Pair..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1066.jpg

100% Het Pied pair. Nothing too noticable except the melty pattern and belly markers. Pic number 2 shows the females belly markers. pic 3 shows the males markers.
~Pair..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1064.jpg
~Female markers..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1065.jpg
~Male's markers..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...sPics030-2.jpg

This is my het clown female. She is very light like a fire. Bit of stuck skin behind her head despite high humidity. Lots of white outlining. Despite her small size she has large scales spaced far apart along her spine like a large adult sometimes has. She has a remarkably clear belly. The male looks just like her only a tiny bit darker in color but his spine scales are even bigger and more noticable. I have not gotten pics of him yet.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1068.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1069.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/DSCF1070.jpg

My 66% albino het has white spots along his back and sides. I will post a pic when calms down later this evening.

I have a "normal" female that is much brighter than other norms, almost like the post above. Still not well versed in color morphs. Is there a name that separated them from other norms?

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Originally Posted by AHOOD

I have a "normal" female that is much brighter than other norms, almost like the post above. Still not well versed in color morphs. Is there a name that separated them from other norms?

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No. What we are talking about here is the possibility of certain hets to carry visual traits, Some hets seem to always have the same traits, making it easier to tell what you have. This is something breeders who work with that certain het can notice but the general population cant.

read the entire thread and you will see. We also wonder if this is anything a trained eye can see as being an actual visual trait happening in every single representation of that particular morph.

Interesting stuff. Its all opinions here. No one can tell you your snake is an actual het or not. Unless maybe the breeder of that snake were asked. There is also no name for unusual normals or possible hets other than dinkers or possibly harliquins if the pattern is right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike@OutbackReptiles

I've noticed het clowns tend to make morphs and normals look "better." When we have for example pastels p.h. clown the brighter, nicer looking pastels prove out a lot more often than "normal" pastels.

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Interesting. I definitely noticed that, but figured I was over-thinking it. lol

This is a very interesting thread. I have mentioned this to a few friends of mine and they are always so quick to say " one can not tell a het from a normal". But I have noticed my hets do look different from my normals. Pretty much everything mentioned here I have noticed on my hets and yes when I got home last night I double checked. It will be very interesting to check this theory out at the next expo I attend.

I noticed that the 100% het lav male and my PH lav male have the same gold coloring and white outlines for the alien heads. The female, who I havent paid off yet but have seen pictures, also has the same thing. Oddly enough, all 3 of them have an "8" in their pattern. Not calling that a marker, but it IS odd.

Poss Het Lav
http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs113...._5872423_n.jpg

100% Het Lav Female
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._6902325_n.jpg

100% Het Lav Male, dark photo
http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs169...._2392794_n.jpg

can someone go into a little more detail about the clown markers. I have 3 poss het clown females and would like to check this out. so if someone could post a pictures that would be great. also what do you mean by spaced far apart..that the scales in general are spaced far apart or that each large scale is far apart from the next one?

My het clowns not only have the large scales on the spine but a kind of 'sheen' on the head. Almost like oil on water. Anyone else noticed this?

I agree that many hets seem to look different but many others don't. Maybe it has something to do with the normals used in prior breedings? I used to keep unusual normals just because, maybe I would produce something neat, etc. I would assume others have done the same. If these normals were used to produce hets maybe that would explain future "markers"??

In 2008 I produced four clutches from lav albino x het. All the hets in these clutches were very nice and bright gold color. I then had two cluches from het lav x normal still incubating and figured I would be able to just pick out the nice gold ones. All the babies from both clutches looked totally normal??

Here is a similar thread regarding Het. Axanthic markers. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103673

This subject is very interesting. We should compile a photo gallery of 100% hets of various morphs and see if there are as many consistencies as there seems to be.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

This subject is very interesting. We should compile a photo gallery of 100% hets of various morphs and see if there are as many consistencies as there seems to be.

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I agree with this. it would have to be broken up among lines. like a specific thread for each line of ghost or axanthic. It would be a good way to disprove/prove a lot of these marker theories.

Very interesting thread!

As a lot of us I do have several Hets in my collection.

I have noticed that my Het Ghost all have a nice bright color, busy patterns, and the random grey scales like you find on Homozygous Ghosts.
My Het pieds have the "Melty" pattern and "railroad tracks"
My Het Carmel girl looks a lot like the Het pieds with the melty pattern but also has an extraordinary sheen to her scales all the time!
Het albinos just don't look normal to me but I can not explain it. I have heard that some are born almost axantic looking (Fader Albino I believe)

Good thread!

i purchased a 09 bp normal het albino from royality (thanks again tyler) and his coloring is awesome.. hes a dirty beige color with some awesome oranges... not sure how to post pics here.... PEACE.