Question about meds for RI

I was holding my Male Pastel Tuesday evening, and after about ten minutes of handling he let loose a river of clear mucus. So yesterday I took him out in the morning, and tried to recreate what happened the night before. Out of all my BP's I had never seen anything like it, and it could have very well been that he just drank some water. However I didn't feel it was normal, and took him to the vet yesterday. We have an Avian and Exotic Vet here in the Raleigh area that is great! I took Obi-Wan Kenobi in yesterday, and after the exam and two slide smears they did agree that he had a RI in the very early stages.

Now all that being said. I have seen time and again on here that Baytril is the treatment for RI's. However they did prescribe Fortaz (ceftazidime). By far I am not a vet nor would I know the difference between the two medications, but has anyone else treated a RI with Fortaz (ceftazidime)?

If I remember correctly they are both wide spectrum antibiotics. I know many people have had RIs treated with Fortaz and Baytril. I don't have any direct experience with them though. Both are used to treat RIs though.

Ceftazadime (Fortaz) is safer than enrofloxacin (Baytril) in reptiles because it does not cause injection site reactions. Typically ceftazidime is prescribed while pending culture results, and then if the culture shows that the infection is resistant to ceftazadime, the antibiotic is switched.

Thank you both. Crittervet that is kind of along the lines of what my vet told me. That Baytril can leave some nasty injection scarring, and that Fortaz takes care of a wider range of bacteria than Baytril including RI's.

Like I said these guys in Raleigh are awesome, and I highly recommend them! I just hadn't heard of Fortaz being used before, and wanted a little more information from outside of the doctor's office :D

I've used both drugs in the past.

I've gotten burns from Baytril and have learned how to inject it to avoid the scarring.

Fortaz is a promising drug and can be especially effective is done with an Aminoglycoside such as Amikacin. They work synergistically.

I would never treat an infection without a Culture and Sensitivity test though.

You may not need either one after the results come back, and that you ended up needing a totally different class of drug all together, such as a Sulfa.

Most of the scaring from baytril is because it wasnt injected into the meat but under the skin. I have used baytril and IMO works great if injected properly.

Our vet gives us oral baytril. So all you have to do is open the snakes mouth and squirt it down there throat.

When i took one of my bp's to the vet for an Ri I was prescribed Amiglyde. Never heard of it but it worked great.

Which is an Aminoglycoside, most likely Amikacin.

Again though, no meds should be given until you do a C/S test IMO.

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Originally Posted by BLong7211

When i took one of my bp's to the vet for an Ri I was prescribed Amiglyde. Never heard of it but it worked great.

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Originally Posted by Clear

Most of the scaring from baytril is because it wasnt injected into the meat but under the skin. I have used baytril and IMO works great if injected properly.

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This is false. The injection site reactions affect muscle, and injecting diluted Baytril under the skin is the current recommendation.

2kdime, please keep in mind that even with subQ injections and perfect injection technique, injection site reactions can still happen with Baytril. There is no way to predict if a given animal will have a reaction or not.

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

This is false. The injection site reactions affect muscle, and injecting diluted Baytril under the skin is the current recommendation.

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Documentations?

I'm currently having a scare that my BP may have an RI, and should be taken in to the vet... I know that most areas have their own pricing, but can anyone give me their averages for how much the Baytril or any other RI medication cost them? So I can prepare myself for it, if need be. My boyfriend and I are in a tight spot right now...

Canada prices will be different from US prices. I sent off 2 lab samples and treatment for $120USD

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Originally Posted by Clear

Documentations?

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Unfortunately, the Veterinary Information Network is a vet-only password-protected site, otherwise I would post links to various discussions there regarding Baytril injection site reactions involving muscle necrosis and mineralization. I can put you in touch with various reptile veterinarians if you don't believe me, just send me a PM. I don't think this phenomenon was included in the 2nd edition of Mader, but I guarantee it will be in the 3rd.

I will have to ask my vet about this Crittervet. He is always more than willing to show me stuff like that.

I respect your opinion on this, but I have to disagree and stand my ground.

I always end up injecting Baytril that is diluted down with Saline.

If I don't get the medication down DEEP into the muscle, I get burns.

I've had em squirm and the meds end up sitting between the skin and muscle, guess what, burns. It causes a nice big ol' lump at the injection site.

This is what works for me and is what I will continue doing.

Again, I will ask him about this or feel free to PM me any information you have about this, I'm always loving the next scientific read! I also respect where your coming from and your background, but I know what Baytril does when given SubQ in my experience, and it was never pretty.

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Unfortunately, the Veterinary Information Network is a vet-only password-protected site, otherwise I would post links to various discussions there regarding Baytril injection site reactions involving muscle necrosis and mineralization.

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So the only documentations are on a password protected site that the general public cant view? That sounds more like the documents, I mean discussions are vets opinions.

You are right, these are opinions, as there aren't any statistics to base the recommendations on. The thing is, this phenomenon has only recently been recognized, and no one has done an official study to publish in any scientific journals yet. What you have are adverse effect reports, which are given to Bayer and shared among colleagues (on websites, during meetings, and through consultations). The reasoning behind the recommendation for subQ injection is that an injection site reaction happening at the surface is much easier to recognize early, easier to treat, and less likely to cause debilitating damage.

The original statement, "Most of the scaring from baytril is because it wasnt injected into the meat but under the skin," is just wrong. Scarring happens when the animal has a reaction to the drug -- whether in the subcutaneous tissues or the muscles -- leading to necrosis which (hopefully) heals eventually resulting in a scar. The point I'm trying to get across is that no matter where you inject the drug, or how perfect your technique is, you still are at risk of having a reaction.

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Originally Posted by Moofins07

I'm currently having a scare that my BP may have an RI, and should be taken in to the vet... I know that most areas have their own pricing, but can anyone give me their averages for how much the Baytril or any other RI medication cost them? So I can prepare myself for it, if need be. My boyfriend and I are in a tight spot right now...

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I'm currently having my male treated with Fortaz (as everyone else has said it's a wide-spectrum antibiotic and the reason my vet gave it to me is that aside from the fact that it works a bit better with reptiles is that it is also only injected once every 3 days rather than doing it everyday with the baytril he would have prescribed.) Fortaz is more expensive (in my area) than baytril is.

My total bill came out to $291.00. That's... minus 150 for both snakes check-up (brought my female in for a just-in-case check up) and 115 for the culture so... it came out to be around $36 minus tax for 3 injections. Fortaz is priced per injection so it's about 10-12 per.

Hope this helps!

edit: forgot to add that it is usually a treatment of a month or longer. so it might be around 10 injections or so so prepare yourself for at least 110/120 for all the injections plus whatever the checkup and culture cost is.

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

You are right, these are opinions, as there aren't any statistics to base the recommendations on. The thing is, this phenomenon has only recently been recognized, and no one has done an official study to publish in any scientific journals yet. What you have are adverse effect reports, which are given to Bayer and shared among colleagues (on websites, during meetings, and through consultations). The reasoning behind the recommendation for subQ injection is that an injection site reaction happening at the surface is much easier to recognize early, easier to treat, and less likely to cause debilitating damage.

The original statement, "Most of the scaring from baytril is because it wasnt injected into the meat but under the skin," is just wrong. Scarring happens when the animal has a reaction to the drug -- whether in the subcutaneous tissues or the muscles -- leading to necrosis which (hopefully) heals eventually resulting in a scar. The point I'm trying to get across is that no matter where you inject the drug, or how perfect your technique is, you still are at risk of having a reaction.

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Reading not a strong point? Most is a big word in my statement.

Actually, I am quite advanced in reading, as well as in etiquette and civil, intelligent discussion. In fact, my reading comprehension skills tell me that "most" is a minor contributor to that statement, included only to cover the fact that few things in the world are 100%. Indeed, if the writer of the sentence did not believe that scarring was a result of SQ injection and not IM, I believe the sentence would not have been written in the first place.

I've been able to have my vet see and treat a couple of snakes for under $120 including meds. So, it depends on the prices in your area.

Fortaz is recommended to be kept frozen until shortly before you use it, which is a bit of a pain.

*I will play nice*

I paid a total of $122.00 for my vet visit and meds. I have seen them several times with my other snakes so I do not know if that helped with pricing at all. My vet visit is $52.00 and then $70 for 10 shots of Fortaz. Shot every three days as well for one month.

is your snake improving? is the fortraz working?

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Actually, I am quite advanced in reading, as well as in etiquette and civil, intelligent discussion. In fact, my reading comprehension skills tell me that "most" is a minor contributor to that statement, included only to cover the fact that few things in the world are 100%. Indeed, if the writer of the sentence did not believe that scarring was a result of SQ injection and not IM, I believe the sentence would not have been written in the first place.

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HAHA, CritterVet, I gotta thank you, reading this really made my night! lol

*no harm meant to any of CritterVets possible opposition on this topic*

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Actually, I am quite advanced in reading, as well as in etiquette and civil, intelligent discussion. In fact, my reading comprehension skills tell me that "most" is a minor contributor to that statement, included only to cover the fact that few things in the world are 100%. Indeed, if the writer of the sentence did not believe that scarring was a result of SQ injection and not IM, I believe the sentence would not have been written in the first place.

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Big Gunns will stay out of this debate. He will say that on normal colored animals it is a lot harder to notice scarring, although it may in fact be there.

BG just wanted to comment on your Sig Crittervet. To answer your question. Yes BG would, if he liked the breed of dog and every single dog may or may not wobble no matter if the parents wobbled or not. Especially if this "wobble" did not interfere with the quality of life of the animal. They do breed Fainting Goats yah know.:D

BG gets what you're saying, but it's apples and oranges. Just like the Fainting Goat, this wobble gives Spiders a leeetle more personality. BG has heard of a couple that were so bad they would drown in the water bowl if not watched though. Although this could have been some combination of things that led them to get this bad.....who knows.

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Originally Posted by momoffive

is your snake improving? is the fortraz working?

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I think it is too early to tell with just two shots in. I have handled him in the same way that produced the mucus the first two times, and after 20 minutes nothing came out. I have him qt'd from others, and none of my others are showing a sign of anything thank goodness.

I was glad I caught it early, and took him right in for both his health and my others. I usually handled him last anyways because he is the last one that I got. Looking back it was a good thing I did this.

A few years ago I bought a Greek Tort from out of state. When the tort arrived, he was blowing bubbles. I've got a great Herp Vet. He gave me some Baytril and showed me how to administer the meds. I remember him telling me to get the diabetic needle deep into the back thigh. He also told me that if I were to ever use it on my snakes to make sure I got it deep into the muscle. He said I could burn the snake without going deep into the muscle. I do know that he premixed the Bayril with Saline, so I wouldn't have to sorry about doing it.

Hope this helps!
Jim Smith

I also caught the RI fairly early--and I mean really paranoid neurotic early--the day he started clicking and had a couple wheezes (and a bit of bubbles in the mouth,) off to the vet the next day. After 2 shots of Fortaz, he's stopped clicking and wheezing altogether (but just to be safe I think my vet will continue it on a one month treatment) so it may depend on a combination of how severe the RI is and how well the snake reacts to the antibiotic.

Of course, he's starting to hiss at me (which he hasn't done since the day he came home with me) every time I open the tub so that may be an unfortunate side effect.

To be fair, I'd probably hiss at the crazy limbed giant that hurts me every time my house's roof is torn off.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

I also caught the RI fairly early--and I mean really paranoid neurotic early--the day he started clicking and had a couple wheezes (and a bit of bubbles in the mouth,) off to the vet the next day. After 2 shots of Fortaz, he's stopped clicking and wheezing altogether (but just to be safe I think my vet will continue it on a one month treatment) so it may depend on a combination of how severe the RI is and how well the snake reacts to the antibiotic.

Of course, he's starting to hiss at me (which he hasn't done since the day he came home with me) every time I open the tub so that may be an unfortunate side effect.

To be fair, I'd probably hiss at the crazy limbed giant that hurts me every time my house's roof is torn off.

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That's not being "paranoid neurotic"...that is what everyone should do.:gj::gj:

I agree with BG on that one.

If it were your child you would take them to the doctor if something was wrong. So should you with the animals/ pets you take responsibility for.
You did the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns will stay out of this debate. He will say that on normal colored animals it is a lot harder to notice scarring, although it may in fact be there.

BG just wanted to comment on your Sig Crittervet. To answer your question. Yes BG would, if he liked the breed of dog and every single dog may or may not wobble no matter if the parents wobbled or not. Especially if this "wobble" did not interfere with the quality of life of the animal. They do breed Fainting Goats yah know.:D

BG gets what you're saying, but it's apples and oranges. Just like the Fainting Goat, this wobble gives Spiders a leeetle more personality. BG has heard of a couple that were so bad they would drown in the water bowl if not watched though. Although this could have been some combination of things that led them to get this bad.....who knows.

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I wouldn't breed fainting goats or English bulldogs, and several other dog breeds. But this is a discussion for another thread.

Just an update on Kenobi. We now have one injection left, and all is good with my big guy. I am so glad I caught it early, and none of my others got a RI from him. He was my last addition, and he was always handled last which I think was a big plus for the others not getting it.

Once again can't stress enough to get them to a vet as soon as possible, and don't wait it out to see what happens.