Wild Caught Ball Pythons

So, I was looking around on YouTube....trying to find a good "National Geographic" or "Discovery Channel" type video of Ball Pythons in the wild.
The only one I could find right away was a video, a bad one at that from a camera phone it seems, of a few guys reaching into burrows and yanking out wild Ball Pythons. Not only that, but unraveling a female from her eggs, and taking her too. They have bags, and it appears that they are collecting them to sell abroad as wild-caught ball pythons. (SEE BELOW FOR VIDEO)

This kind of rubbed me the wrong way. As far as I am concerned, there are more than enough captive born & bred ball pythons that this can be stopped.
I think at this point we are just raping a continent of beautiful, peaceful, native snakes. I most certainly DO NOT think that we are going to discover some crazy-cool, naturally occurring morph that has not already been found.

So that's they question of the poll.
DO YOU THINK THERE IS STILL ANY REASON TO STILL BE "HARVESTING" WILD-CAUGHT BALL PYTHONS?

Maybe it's just me...but I thought this would be a good topic starter and I hope people voice their opinions on it. The poll will be private, so no one will know how you voted. Remember, let's keep it civil. I don't want to invoke anyone breaking rules or anything. Debates can get hot sometimes, but keep your cool:cool:
YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

Thanks for any opinions,
SpiderBP

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Without Wild Caught BPs we wouldn't have these marvelous morphs like Platinums! Seriously, you'd kill a lot of great genetic lines.

Now if we end up harming the wild population we could always send some back to live in the wild, so we could help maintain the balance.

Add in that it also offers jobs to a continent that is filled with fighting, starvation, and unemployment. Come on, you really want to put more people out of work?

Hey if some1 made a order of wild caught pythons can u raise ur hand, shame on u:mad:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Without Wild Caught BPs we wouldn't have these marvelous morphs like Platinums! Seriously, you'd kill a lot of great genetic lines.

Now if we end up harming the wild population we could always send some back to live in the wild, so we could help maintain the balance.

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Ok...(theoretically)

So it's okay wipe out a species in it's native land as long as "someday" we fix it?
While I'm sure their are plenty of people who agree with you....how many of them will be helping/funding this project of replenishing the wild population when "someday" comes around?

Remember, when it comes to something that benefits someone with little effort, that someone will be all for it. But when it comes to doing something to benefit an animal, and will take ALOT of effort, that same someone may be "all talk".

Thanks for joining in on the discussion though....and please don't hate me just cause I don't agree with you....
That's something I want everyone who comments on this thread to remember....these are just opinions. And everyone's entitled to them.

:D

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Originally Posted by harm286

Hey if some1 made a order of wild caught pythons can u raise ur hand, shame on u:mad:

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Huh? I'm afraid I don't undertand your statement...?

I will be happy to read it again if you could explain it to me?

-SpiderBP

I take in unwanted snakes in my area and about 80% of my rescues have been Ball Pythons. Honestly, if it's a normal just leave it alone, we don't need to be bringing in anymore. I'm pretty sure we have FAR more than we need to supply people with breeding. Though if a morph in the wild is found, I don't have a problem with bringing in that lone snake who probably is having issues catching food anyways.

They were calling out people who have purchased/ordered wild caught animals and then scolding them for disagreeing with it.

Also I didn't say we would do it "some day" I said if there is an issue with their numbers in the wild then we should help. Believe me there is no shortage of normal BPs being produced, and even single trait codoms being made, we could easily send out hundreds to be released in the wild with no negative effect on the industry and (provided we know its necessary beforehand) it would help bolster any dwindling population in the wild. There are plenty of people producing hundreds of snakes a year, all it would take is a return shipment to Africa of some of these snakes.

Add in that many people around here actually care about these snakes in general, not just the ones in our collections, I'm quite sure that if were published that the wild population is dwindling, then hundreds, if not thousands, of people would end up donating to help, money that could be used to either set up breeding programs in Africa or to send hundreds of snakes back to be released in the wild.

Carusima- You make a great point...if a morph is found in the wild that due to color/pattern would make it difficult for wild survival, then ok...you are saving an animal.

Another point I forgot to make on OxyLepy first comment...
We wouldn't be killing genetic lines. The genetic lines that exist in the pet trade in the United States are already thriving...or they wouldn't be available for sale. And if they aren't thriving...it's because they are an early project....as long as a handful of breeders have a certain type of morph, then babies WILL be made....and WILL be sold. Without capturing wild versions of morphs that are already heavily present in the captive born & bred industry.

I remember reading that the Black Pastels had multiple lines shipped in from Africa and each is different in its own way, its not just about entirely new morphs, it's also about increasing the genetic lines of pre-existing morphs. I believe that something similar has happened with Lessers, where aside from the Platinum purchased by Ralph Davis there were also other wild Lessers which could be new genetic lines shipped in.

Look at the different Ghosts as well, there are a handful of different lines of them, some arent even compatible with others.

I'm not saying "hey lets go out with Ball Python catching machines and dig up every last Ball in Africa and ship it here" I'm just saying lets not stop all imports entirely just because hey we have a lot already.

Its definitely good to see that pet stores aren't taking WC animals anymore and almost exclusively sell CB animals now.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

They were calling out people who have purchased/ordered wild caught animals and then scolding them for disagreeing with it.

Also I didn't say we would do it "some day" I said if there is an issue with their numbers in the wild then we should help. Believe me there is no shortage of normal BPs being produced, and even single trait codoms being made, we could easily send out hundreds to be released in the wild with no negative effect on the industry and (provided we know its necessary beforehand) it would help bolster any dwindling population in the wild. There are plenty of people producing hundreds of snakes a year, all it would take is a return shipment to Africa of some of these snakes.

Add in that many people around here actually care about these snakes in general, not just the ones in our collections, I'm quite sure that if were published that the wild population is dwindling, then hundreds, if not thousands, of people would end up donating to help, money that could be used to either set up breeding programs in Africa or to send hundreds of snakes back to be released in the wild.

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You can't send captive reptiles back into the wild. Who knows what sorts of immunities our snakes have picked up from other herps in our collections, or if we might accidentally introduce a nonnative parasite? Sending "contaminated" captive animals back into the wild is not a real option, as it could end up doing more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

all it would take is a return shipment to Africa of some of these snakes.

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Thanks for clearing up that one guys post...he confused me :P

Ok...so you are planning on what? Taking adults/subadults that have never lived on their own and releasing them into the wild? Even with their instincts, chances that they would survive and be able to produce a next generation are slim to none. How many people on here talk about how "my snake knows feeding time....they are always right there at the edge of the tub ready for their food on the tongs" (or something like this)
Yes they have instincts, but they...like every other living creature, have the ability to adapt. They "get used" to being fed from tongs. Being fed F/T. Living in a tub.

It's even worse if the plan is to release a bunch of babies who aren't accustomed to captive living. Then they have to survive twice as long as the subadults to make it to a point of being able to reproduce and re-establish the wild population.

Then you could always fund breeding programs in Africa with already established snakes that exist there, helping the snakes there repopulate by reducing the likelihood of them dying from predation.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I'm not saying "hey lets go out with Ball Python catching machines and dig up every last Ball in Africa and ship it here" I'm just saying lets not stop all imports entirely just because hey we have a lot already.

Its definitely good to see that pet stores aren't taking WC animals anymore and almost exclusively sell CB animals now.

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I will agree with you to an extent. Morphs like Pastels (I know it's not the most "sought after" but this is just an example) that their are PLENTY of on the market and being bred here in non-native countries to the snake....Normals....

I still don't think we should keep importing certain morphs because there is a "possibility" of there being a different genetic make-up and creating a new morph....I mean, I am not religious by any means...Not at all...but I am afraid we are way past the point of "Playing God."

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Originally Posted by SpiderBP

It's even worse if the plan is to release a bunch of babies who aren't accustomed to captive living. Then they have to survive twice as long as the subadults to make it to a point of being able to reproduce and re-establish the wild population.

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Do not the baby balls already exist and have to thrive on their own in the wild? Do we think that the animals are entirely incapable of fending for themselves? Any young snakes sent would have the same likelihood of survival as the wild babies.

But as was mentioned before the diseases that would be introduced could create more of an issue than the released snakes would be helping.

Bringing it back to African based breeding programs.

Also if only the visible morphs are removed from Africa, then the snakes that are there would have no problem reproducing with one or two less snakes every few years.

Again, I'm not proposing we go grab up all the snakes in Africa and bring them into the pet trade, but I darn well wouldn't say that we should completely abandon importing wild caught animals.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Then you could always fund breeding programs in Africa with already established snakes that exist there, helping the snakes there repopulate by reducing the likelihood of them dying from predation.

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I understand what you are trying to say. The thing is...other than the pet-trade, and skin-trade...the only other major factor that is impeding on the continued survival of ball pythons in the wild is the fact that they are eaten as food in many places in Africa.

You can cut out the skin-trade.
You can stop importing WC Ball Pythons.
But how are you going to tell an already starving people, who have been there almost as long as these snakes, that they are no longer allowed to eat them, but we are going to keep importing them because they are *pretty*...?

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Also if only the visible morphs are removed from Africa, then the snakes that are there would have no problem reproducing with one or two less snakes every few years.

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I like this. Actually, even more than "one or two"....
Don't think that I am in this disbelief and think that BP's are going extinct or something. They aren't. BUT, when you wait for the problem to arrive, it'll be that much harder to turn around....

Who said I was telling them to stop from eating available resources? I'm not saying they should stop eating them at all. I'm just saying that we shouldn't abandon all importation of WC animals. What if we find a reduced pattern red and white snake out there? That could be worth a hundred thousand dollars, money that could go to helping the local population.

And a breeding program doesn't mean you stop people from eating the wild animals, it just means you set up an area for the balls to breed in and remove predation from those balls to help to boost the wild population.

Addition:

My whole argument is for pulling out potentially valuable animals that can help to earn the people in Africa money, not to stop them from eating the animals they can get, not to continue bringing thousands of animals into this country, not to interfere with the local population in a huge way. In fact I'm saying that if the local population dwindles we should definitely fund breeding of animals in Africa to help boost that so they don't become endangered in the wild but remain, hopefully, locally common.

And if it came down to needing a breeding program I'm pretty sure that the same people who sent 50,000 letters to the government about HR 669 would be willing to part with 25 to a thousand dollars a year (depending on personal income) to help fund it. If we really care about the snakes then we would all be willing to part with a small fraction of our income to help out the wild population of the species.

My point about bringing up them eating them was that they aren't going to spend money (that they don't have) to save a food source such as a ball python. They will just find another food source.
Assuming (and I could be wrong) that the African Nations that have wild populations of BP's don't fund a breeding program...who will?
Yes we have a big community of herpers willing to donate money if it came down to it...but will it be enough?

BILLIONS are donated to countries in Africa and there are still children starving, dying...
Kids don't have food, medicine, shelter? Young women don't have access to feminine products. Rape, starvation, everything horrible you can think of. And still it's not enough.

You mean to tell me you think people will donate money to save a species of snake, when they won't even save fellow human beings? I mean, I love snakes...but if it came down to saving the ENTIRE population of BP's...or saving 100 children, I'm gonna have to go with the children. And I would think that any other decent human being would be the same....

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

My whole argument is for pulling out potentially valuable animals that can help to earn the people in Africa money....

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Let me leave you with this...because I'm about to pass out....

Of the millions (dare I say billions) of dollars made in the wide-world of Ball Python breeding....how much do you think has gone back to the land that the original morphs were discovered in? (I bet it's not as much as one would hope)


Thanks for "arguing" with me man. It's been great, and it's been an even better discussion...hopefully some more people join in....

I'll be on later today to see what else has went down....


Later,
SpiderBP

I think all of us would, but the issue with the money donated there is that funds are clearly being misused by the governments of those countries. Look at when we offered to help and the food was rejected because the government of Zambia was told that the food may be a health risk since it was a genetically modified strain.

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Originally Posted by SpiderBP

Thanks for "arguing" with me man. It's been great, and it's been an even better discussion...hopefully some more people join in....

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Oh, sorry for saying "arguing" a lot of people misinterpret my meaning of the word usage. One can argue a point without having a violent disagreement, when I use the term I almost always mean that it is a discussion of people with opposing views.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I think all of us would, but the issue with the money donated there is that funds are clearly being misused by the governments of those countries. Look at when we offered to help and the food was rejected because the government of Zambia was told that the food may be a health risk since it was a genetically modified strain.

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So are you going to go to Africa with me when this whole "breeding program" goes into effect and help me guard the funds set aside for BP's from armed government militia that want to take it?

You do realize that there are people in Africa that breed ball pythons, right? Not all of Africa is as violent as the highly publicized countries.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

You do realize that there are people in Africa that breed ball pythons, right? Not all of Africa is as violent as the highly publicized countries.

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Right and you do realize that almost every government in the ball pythons territory is corupt? Benin, Togo, and Ghana. If these governments are going to take food from kids, what makes you think they won't jump on the supposed "large amounts of money" that will be sent there for snakes?

Ok really, I'm falling asleep...haha

Like I said at the very beginning...this is just a discussion. I hope there are no hard feelings....well, I don't have any towards you....so I hope none are floating my way...

I will be back on around 10am to see if anyone else has joined in....

Night,
-SpiderBP

No, no, it was a fairly decent little argument. I've not the time to put toward real research into the potential of starting a breeding program in Africa but I strongly doubt that there is absolutely nowhere that it could be achieved. At the moment I am too busy working at prepping for my finals and then I'll be too busy studying for next semester, but it's an interesting topic, definitely.

I live in Africa (South Africa) I might not be in the countries where they are catching ball pythons but I do know about the people of Africa and let me say that if these guys are catching ball pythons to put food on the table I don’t see a problem.

On a regular basis I have people from across the border asking me if they can work in my garden, some of these people have degrees but the situation in their own countries is so bad they risk their lives (most illegal immigrants come to South Africa through the Kruger national park where they encounter lions, leopards and Nile crocodiles) to come here to do meaningless jobs.
This is the length that people will go through just to live and support their families.

Some families live of a dollars worth of food a week so that WC ball python you see at petco is someone’s lively hood.

I love all animals and ball pythons are one of my favourites but I love people more.

This just my opinion and is not an attack on anyone.

Poverty, corruption and crime are no joke. These are the 3 main reason why immigrants leave their home contries. The last 2 is mostly why my parents decided to leave ours. Corruption and crime is eating our home contry appart. When you include extreme poverty to the mix, it is just brutal to the body, mind and soul. When these people realise this, that is when they will risk anything to flee somewhere else. Look at the cubans that flee in poorly kept together rafts for example. There are countless stories of cubans perishing to shark attacks....

Giving money to an already corrupt goverment wont fix anything, it will make it worse if anything.

No.
Stop the harvest and they become worthless to the local population. They will then be killed for meat/skins etc - fast track to extinction.

Do all the people that voted 'yes' realize they will be harvested regardless if they are for pets or food? The Asian market will gladly take any and all ball pythons for food and leather. Countries in Africa will capture & export the snakes no matter what they are to be used for. The United States saying we don't want wild caught ball pythons as pets, just means they get shipped to Asia as food.

You will also lose new bloodlines and morphs.

Why should it be up to us, the US?

I can easily see it being on us to decide whether or not we import, but as far who exports what, that's not our call.

Does your poll really reflect your true question?

I think if we stop the collection of wild-caught ball pythons, we won't see any new morphs and with the market already going down (Pieds are less than $1000!) soon there won't be any money to be made and for many breeders out there who already have many if not all the current morphs available, there won't be any new genetics to work with. Its exciting when a new morph has been found and people are breeding their normals that they hope have some genetic pattern or color to them. If you stop the import of WC snakes, even normal ones, you lose that. Yes, we might come across some new morphs in the wild but even normals can carry all sorts of genetic maybes that we haven't even discovered yet. Now, do I think we should harvest and import every single snake we see, no. Should we scale it back a bit, yes.

Hey, I know that guy in the video! :rofl: That's what "they" would say...

Humanity has a destructive nature.

But to each his own, I say responsibility is key.

However, all these captive-bred lines came from wild-caught colonies to begin with. I see it similar to hunting deer, or cotton-tails... there must be a balance.

I don't mean to be weird, but the proliferation of pet snakes in the wild is well documented. Look at Florida for example. I don't think our snakes would have any trouble adapting to the wild. The ones that did have trouble would be eliminated from the population, and the ones that were fine would go off and have babies--that's just how it works. Given we cannot be sure our animals wouldn't cary with them foreign parasites and diseases, but a part of me doubts this. If any harm were to be done, I imagine it would be an issue of our snakes not having the antibodies needed to survive in Africa, and again, natural selection would iron this out over time. As far as goes collecting snakes in Africa, I can see how it could potentially become a problem. As it stands right now, I think the highest demand is on crazy phenotypes, and stresses on Normal populations aren't that great for the pet trade. Ball Pythons seem to have a relatively high fecundity. If females are reproducing from 2 years old, laying 6-10 eggs per clutch every year for 20 or so years (I imagine this is a ripe old age for a wild snake), that's at least 100-200+ babies over a snakes lifetime. Obviously this isn't sea turtle like fecundity, but, given the snakes hide-in-burrow lifestyle, I'd be willing to bet at least 10-25 of those 100+ survive into adulthood to reproduce. While this doesn't seem like a lot, I don't think we're yet collecting 10-25 normals for every breeding snake out there, as the demand just isn't there for normals like that, so I'd say we're okay right now. I'd also have to disagree with the OP and say that I'm pretty positive new crazy morphs will be found in Africa, new stuff has been discovered consistently over the years. Anywho, none of this is meant to be abrasive to anyone, it's all just my own opinion. I'm in no way an expert in any of these subjects though, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

Cheers,
-Matt

There are new morphs all the time... you should see some of the weird stuff we import.

As for "raping the country of its ball pythons"

There are plenty of them, and their populations are not being harmed by the amount of exportation that occurs.

Short answer? YES.

Now, for the reasoning. The ball python trade in Africa is big business, and it's run by some tough guys. Those tough guys, however, are also pretty smart. If the habitat of these animals is destroyed, there won't be any more of them to export. Collecting ball pythons from the wild is, therefore, a reasonably sustainable thing to do with the land.
It's about more than just the individual snakes that are exported. That process could certainly use some improvement--but anything that can be done with the land without clearcutting it is an improvement in Africa.

Most of Africa is very poor. These people need the money for food. If they aren't collecting ball pythons, they will have to be doing something else--and it will probably be more destructive. The wild-caught animal trade is not a black and white issue, there are many shades of grey there, and many factors to consider.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Most of Africa is very poor. These people need the money for food. If they aren't collecting ball pythons, they will have to be doing something else--and it will probably be more destructive. The wild-caught animal trade is not a black and white issue, there are many shades of grey there, and many factors to consider.

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I do agree, the people do need the money for food. But I would like to find out how much a ball python catcher in Africa makes per snake. I would imagine its not even 1/10th the amount that the snake is going to make someone at a reptile show once it's exported to the US. I mean...when the very first Pastel was imported I'm sure it sold for 100's more than some guy in Africa made to collect it.

Thanks to you WingedWolf....I really like that part that I bolded above in your quote.

And the food thing is a very serious part of the export of Ball Pythons.
Someone had stated that even if we don't import them for pet trade they'll still be eaten. Well, ya....but I would rather see a species go extinct while it supports hundreds of thousands of people as a sustainable food source, then for it to go extinct from pet-trade. Think of how much a large adult female weighs. So, when one gets imported for pet-trade....(assuming it's not also sent out for skin-trade) it's basically taking....3-5 lbs of meat away from some starving family.

P.S. This is completely unrelated to this thread, so forgive me for thread jacking--but the female in that video that had been sitting on a clutch is absolutely ENORMOUS! Maybe it's just the video, but that looks like one big mamma.

Cheers,
-Matt

Hi,

I just have to point out you have completely misunderstood what is happening in that video clip.

Read this.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I just have to point out you have completely misunderstood what is happening in that video clip.

Read this.


dr del

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Thanks for that link...ya, the Youtube video didn't have a description under it...

But even though they were studying those particular Ball Pythons...the men that were guiding this doctor...were trappers...it even says so on the page of the link you provided. So yes, I misunderstood and thought they were trapping/collecting them in that video....but the men were trappers/collectors.
Thank you for that link.

Hi,

Yes if you watch the full dvd you see the eggs being taken to incubation pits and the gravid females being placed in bins until they lay - after that they are generally released again.

The quality of the video on the dvd does lack a little something ( focus and clarity mainly :giggle: ) but it is intresting to see how the Captive Farmed and Captive Hatched animals are kept and collected.


dr del

Thanks again for that link...I think I may order it...as it's the only actual DVD I have been able to find with what seems to be some decent footage of the snakes in the wild.
And ya...it's not exactly shot with an HD HandyCam or anything like that :D But atleast it's good enough you can tell what's going on.

I would still love to find a "National Geographic" type movie on BP's....seems like there are informational movies with video from the wild for all other kinds of animals....tigers, elephants....heck they have a WHOLE SHOW on Animal Planet dedicated to Meer Cats...?? lol

Thanks again,
SpiderBP

So, wait, you would rather see a species eaten into extinction than you would see it taken into captivity and preserved?
I don't get it, I really don't. I don't see captivity as a worse fate than death. I also don't consider animals that are extinct in the wild, but still alive in captivity, to actually be extinct.

Either way, ball pythons are in no danger of extinction in captivity OR the wild.
Common sense--the ball pythons are worth more to the trappers alive than they are dead. Otherwise, the trappers would be eating them, or they would go to the bush meat trade, not the pet trade.

Most of the ball pythons exported are captive-hatched babies. If they ate all the adults, there would be no more babies. They don't find all of the nests, as the wild populations aren't significantly impacted by all of this. The babies aren't worth eating, but they're worth selling overseas. It's sustainable, in a place where very few other things are.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

So, wait, you would rather see a species eaten into extinction than you would see it taken into captivity and preserved?

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Absolutely.
In the three major countries they are found in, the people do eat them and export them. I am not saying I want to see the wild population disappear at all...but if the WILD population did get used up, I would rather it be from the fact that they fed people and kept the people alive than to know that they all went to pet-trade.

And I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used the word extinct, as I am not talking about the species as a whole...rather just the wild population.

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Originally Posted by SpiderBP

Absolutely.
I am not saying I want to see the wild population disappear at all...but if the WILD population did get used up, I would rather it be from the fact that they fed people and kept the people alive than to know that they all went to pet-trade.

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I'd rather see people use common sense and birth control, instead of imitating a giant plague of ravenous locust's and wiping thousands of species just for food.

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Originally Posted by panthercz

I'd rather see people use common sense and birth control, instead of imitating a giant plague of ravenous locust's and wiping thousands of species just for food.

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Are you going to move over there and teach them common sense? Oh, and I hope you are a very wealthy person if you're going to provide condoms and birth control to all of them.

I care about the way these animals are treated in the process.
Seeing WC animals burned out of the bush with huge scars does not rub me right..

If 'sacrificing' those special morphs and money for the sake of the animals' welfare, I'd prefer not having anymore imports. But it's not going to happen either way, so I don't really care that much.

However, in that video those animals may not have been treated with extreme care, but they didn't trap them like they normally do.. and that was meant for the link dr del posted anyway.

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Originally Posted by panthercz

I'd rather see people use common sense and birth control, instead of imitating a giant plague of ravenous locust's and wiping thousands of species just for food.

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Originally Posted by SpiderBP

Are you going to move over there and teach them common sense? Oh, and I hope you are a very wealthy person if you're going to provide condoms and birth control to all of them.

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No need to go off topic there.. yes most humans are irresponsible. Move on.

P.S. Condoms can be found free just about anywhere. (in the U.S.)

Actually there are groups active in Africa teaching the native population how and why to use condoms. There is also a superstision in parts of Africa that if you have sex with a virgin then you will cure yourself of AIDS, leading to rape and increased AIDS infection. Hence them marketing that one anti-rape device that is like a condom with little hooks in it that girls put in themselves, thus hooking into a guy who attempts to rape them.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

P.S. Condoms can be found free just about anywhere. (in the U.S.)

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They were talking about people in Africa, that over populate and have to eat snakes to sustain life. Not people in the US where condoms are sometimes given away for free.

Mind that with a brutal government the likelihood that a group that is trying to teach the population to use condoms will manage to get into that country is fairly low.