Ball Python died....

my baby ball python just died and i have no idea why. ive had it for a little over a month and everything in his setup was perfect. temp hides water, etc.
he had mites so i was dealing with the problem by giving him baths and using reptile spray from natural chemistry. i took him out yesterday to hold him and he kept rotating his head around in circles and rolling around. it was very strange to me so i put him back in his tank. i come in today to find him dead. any explanations? this is my first snake and im pretty bummed out.

Was he twisting or doing a corkscrew motion with his body?

It could have been IBD. I hear that IBD can come from mites, and there is no cure for this disease.

Sorry to hear. :(

mine had passed away yesterday, and it was doing that corkscrew motion.. whats an IBD?

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Originally Posted by mikev204

Sorry to hear. :(

mine had passed away yesterday, and it was doing that corkscrew motion.. whats an IBD?

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Inclusion Body Disease. It can spread throughout your collection and kill an entire collection, but this disease only effects boids.

Hi,

I hate to be the one to mention it but there are a couple of possible reasons for neurological symptoms like those you describe. :(

IBD is the most commonly mentioned cause but I strongly suspect it is not one of the most common causes.

It's natural (or at least expected ) in the spider morph.

It's a known symptom of overheating.

It can be caused by parasites. Some kind of nematode if memory serves.

It can also be caused by the chemicals used to treat for mites. :(


dr del

So sorry for your loss... :(

Definitely sounds like IBD. Especially with the twisting motions you mentioned. So hey, it wasn't your fault. You did everything you could. If you want to give it another shot, clean everything like mad and get another one, when you're ready. Just a bad stroke of luck.

so your saying that most spider ball's are more prone to getting some sort of neurological disorder?

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I hate to be the one to mention it but there are a couple of possible reasons for neurological symptoms like those you describe. :(

IBD is the most commonly mentioned cause but I strongly suspect it is not one of the most common causes.

It's natural (or at least expected ) in the spider morph.

It's a known symptom of overheating.

It can be caused by parasites. Some kind of nematode if memory serves.

It can also be caused by the chemicals used to treat for mites. :(


dr del

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It is something that is passed genetically in the spider morphs. Some have it severe and some have it to the point where it is barely noticeable to the untrained eye. They call it a wobble or corkscrew. But it doesn't cause death in them it just affects they way they slither or feed or what have you. I mean it could cause death if it was that severe that the snake couldn't eat properly or something I guess.

What were you using to control your temps? and what kind of set-up are you using?
I agree with Dr. Del. While IBD is always a possibility. The only way to find out for sure is to have a qualified vet perform a necropsy to check for internal causes, and an IBD test must be specifically requested.
I would venture to say that an uncontrolled heat source, more often than not, is the culprit. The temperatures get too high and the snake basically has a heat stroke...

I'm sorry for your loss... :(


Rob

Hatchlings will spin and twist in the final throes of death. I wouldn't jump to IBD or spider spinning. I would speculate that if it had mites, it was wild caught and probably the stress weakened it's immunity to the parasites it had, causing them to overwhelm the snake.

It's a sad time for you, I know. Just make sure next time to buy from a respected shop or breeder. Buy only captive bred snakes and you will be better off.

Rick

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Originally Posted by BLong7211

It is something that is passed genetically in the spider morphs. Some have it severe and some have it to the point where it is barely noticeable to the untrained eye. They call it a wobble or corkscrew. But it doesn't cause death in them it just affects they way they slither or feed or what have you. I mean it could cause death if it was that severe that the snake couldn't eat properly or something I guess.

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well in that case what about the morphs that you can get from a spider?
i.e. arent bumbles a cross of a spider and another morph?
but you get my point, can it be distributed to its offspring if they are not a spider themselves but from that gene pool?

Hi,

The spinning or wobbling in the spiders seems to be linked to the morph itself so yes you would expect to see it in bumblebees, honeybees etc.

It can show up independantly of the spider gene in normals etc - though whether it is the same cause is open to debate. But you get non-spiders that show the same symptoms. The reason I mentioned spiders is simply that, if a spider does it, you know its in the deal but if a non-spider does it you have a serious problem.

The snake in this case could have been showing the sysmptom as a final result of other problems as SiscoReptiles pointed out.

But with the little information we have at hand I would be more suspicious about the mite treatment or a sudden heat spike than anything else.

But only a necropsy would be able to find out when you get right down to it. :(

The only reason to find out the root cause would be to possibly prevent any problems with other animals.


dr del

i know i may have de-railed the thread some, but it posed a question when i saw the reply.

so i guess with balls, as in all other forms of natures pets, its a hit or miss with offspring.

but if the neurological disorder is more prominent in spiders, bumbles, etc. why are they more expensive to buy?
are the ones being sold....sorted out?lets say and arent showing signs of a problem?

my heart goes out for the loss of this ball, but it has opened many questions in my mind.:tears:

sorry tohear but yes if the theat source was not on a control device it could of spiked and fried the snake. I seen the dimmer controls go bad and I had a close call once that why I went to the ranco units and set it to shut off if the unit (probe) goes bad. The temp spike would not bee seen unless you have a digital temp probe on the warm( heat unit) and it recorded the high temp. I also consualt a vet for a paraiste check and for ibd. IF it come to ibd I thinkthe suggestion is about a 1 year wait befoer anothe snake is gotten..

You didn't say if got a boa in your collection or was this a first snake?? some boa's can carry the disease and never show a sign of it for years.

Definitely sterilize everything, including the surrounding area, and wait at least a month before you consider getting another animal--this will ensure any mites remaining are dead.
Make sure you have a proper thermostat to control temperatures.
Buy from a reputable breeder or very highly rated specialist store, not from a local pet store, and definitely never again from the source you bought this snake from. (In fact, due to the suspicion of IBD, I would personally never set foot in the place again).

Mites are best treated with Provent-A-Mite in conjunction with a single treatment of Reptile Relief to get them off the animal quickly.
Hatchling ball pythons can be very delicate.
I'm sorry for your loss.

On the spider wobble: It is linked to the spider gene. In very rare cases other ball pythons may show neurological signs for other reasons, but it is only genetic in spiders, so far as we have been able to determine. It cannot be seperated from the spider gene (normal siblings from spider clutches don't wobble). It is seldom debilitating--'train wreck' cases are extremely rare. Spiders that wobble still feed avidly, breed, and do not appear distressed. As a result, many feel that this defect is not a sufficient reason to cease breeding spiders. Any snake carrying the spider gene may 'wobble'. It seems to be a less serious problem than the kinking in caramels.
It would probably be detrimental in the wild, as their motor skills are affected, and they often miss their prey on the first strike--but they will never be in the wild, and they're perfectly happy to come back around and get their food on the second or third try. One important aspect of the spider wobble is that spiders will still appear otherwise healthy, and their movements are directed and purposeful. A snake with a serious neurological problem will behave in a more random fashion.

Thanks everyone for your responses, I learned a lot and I appreciate it.
The funny thing is though is that i actually did buy from a well known breeder, or what I thought was a well known breeder. I got it from LLL reptile.

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Originally Posted by Agent Earl

Thanks everyone for your responses, I learned a lot and I appreciate it.
The funny thing is though is that i actually did buy from a well known breeder, or what I thought was a well known breeder. I got it from LLL reptile.

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First, I'm really sorry for your loss. :( But I've heard a lot of bad things about LLL, and was cautioned not to buy from them (when I was in San Diego). So I would recommend finding a different breeder, if/when you are ready for another snake... lots of good ones on here!

yeah i am definitely not buying anything from them again.
ill be sure to look around on here when it comes time to get one, thanks ;)

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Originally Posted by Joey'D

but if the neurological disorder is more prominent in spiders, bumbles, etc. why are they more expensive to buy?
are the ones being sold....sorted out?lets say and arent showing signs of a problem?

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it just comes with the morph, why would it have an effect on the price? jag carpet python have nearly the same exact issue. alot of breeds of dogs have tons of issue, but people still buy em. Great danes for example, lots of things go wrong with them hips and joints, stomache flipping, ect.

I don't know why people think its a big issue, I mean only if your a purist i could see but then you wouldn't be buying a morph eigher if you were.

LLL isn't a breeder (or if they are, they only do a bit of it on the side)--they retail large numbers of animals from a wide variety of sources, and they also sell wild caught imports. Mites in the collection at LLL could transmit all sorts of nasty things.

Sorry for your loss :( I wouldn't suggest buying from LLL, while at a show I saw one of their boas rubbing it's nose raw, and them doing nothing about it. The people were pretty scatter brained too.

ya im never going back there, my mistake

Really sorry about your loss. :( Hopefully you'll have better luck through another source.

This is very very sad. I am sorry to both of you who lost beloved pets.
:(