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  • 11-26-2009, 01:30 AM
    Big Gunns
    "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    The general rule of thumb is that you should not "power feed" your snake. Big Gunns is not so sure they don't "power feed" themselves in the wild. Everyone knows when babies come into the country every year..... a month or so after they come in the "bush babies"(wild caught babies from that year) start coming in. These babies are MONSTERS(2 to 300 grams) compared to the babies that came in before their first shed and have been raised in captivity for a month. Just to be clear.....They are obviously that years babies that have hatched in the wild and fed....and fed HEAVILY.


    This also holds true for the Savannah Monitors. The ones that hatched in the wild and were caught after a couple months are HUGE compared to the ones that came in a newborns and have been raised in captivity.


    Big Gunns point is this. "Power feeding" really needs to be defined. These animals seem to eat a lot more than even Big Gunns feeds them when he's feeding them very well....most people might consider it "power feeding". If they're doing it in the wild, Big Gunns is pretty sure that nature knows what it's doing, and they can handle a heavy feed schedule.

    Now this doesn't mean you should slam every single thing your snake will eat down it's throat 24/7. All BG is pointing out is that they seem to eat a whole lot more than you would think they do in the wild. Big Gunns is sure that females are up to breeding size within 18 months in the wild.

    ps. BG will say this though. He knows a certain breeder that thinks he may have killed his expensive Savannah Monitors by over feeding them, but with them, BG thinks they need more exercise than a snake would.
  • 11-26-2009, 01:36 AM
    marct
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Well BG... Marc agrees with you, and would really like someone to "define" power feeding. (Just wanted to see how much fun it would be to speak in the third person.)
  • 11-26-2009, 01:39 AM
    Big Gunns
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Well BG... Marc agrees with you, and would really like someone to "define" power feeding. (Just wanted to see how much fun it would be to speak in the third person.)


    It's gonna be hard to "define". There's not many people qualified to "define" it, since most people have no clue how much wild animals eat.

    You're loving that third person talk aren't yah?
  • 11-26-2009, 01:48 AM
    marct
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Big Gunns View Post
    You're loving that third person talk aren't yah?

    Marc thinks it is fun to speak this way. :gj:

    About your topic, I grew up on a farm with many cotton mouth snakes. These animals were HUGE. I would always find them in our barn, and in the crawfish pond. I'm pretty sure they ate more than every 7 days.
  • 11-26-2009, 01:56 AM
    mainbutter
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Just because someone can find evidence that ball pythons in the wild will eat like crazy while young, in larger quantities than some people feed in captivity, does not mean that it promotes better health.

    It certainly can be an evolutionary advantage to get to breeding size faster, even if it cuts down on the overal lifespan of the animal.

    My viewpoint is that when it comes to keeping animals in captivity, I'm going to pay more attention to the experience of people's successes keeping them in captivity than the assumptions made about animals found in the wild.
  • 11-26-2009, 02:06 AM
    Big Gunns
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mainbutter View Post
    Just because someone can find evidence that ball pythons in the wild will eat like crazy while young, in larger quantities than some people feed in captivity, does not mean that it promotes better health.

    It certainly can be an evolutionary advantage to get to breeding size faster, even if it cuts down on the overal lifespan of the animal.

    My viewpoint is that when it comes to keeping animals in captivity, I'm going to pay more attention to the experience of people's successes keeping them in captivity than the assumptions made about animals found in the wild.

    Guess what. Big Gunns falls into that category also. He has many many years "experience keeping them in captivity". He also knows one of the biggest(in BG's opinion) "power feeders" there is, and this person has yet to tell BG he has seen any problem with his animals that he fed every single day(small meals) until they were breeding size.

    BG knows he has done this with hundreds of animals....so if it was a problem...he would know. It's only been the last 7 years or so....so maybe it might cause a long term problem...the facts are not in yet.


    ps. Where did Big Gunns say anything about it "promoting better health"? BG is looking...maybe you can point him to where he said it.:P:D
  • 11-26-2009, 02:19 AM
    Big Gunns
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Big Gunns would like to point this out. BG is not saying that if you feed your snake 24/7 it will be fine. All BG is saying is that in his experience he hasn't seen anyone really have any problems with heavy feed schedules....although BG thinks there may be some effects later in life for the animals.


    If an animals dies, who's to say it died from heavy feeding anyway. BG has had boas with cancer that were not fed heavy. It's kinda hard to prove what caused an animal to die.

    To be safe though, BG thinks it's probably best for the animal not to feed it more than a couple times a week at most.:gj:
  • 11-26-2009, 10:53 AM
    rabernet
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    It's interesting Neil - Tim Bailey and I have discussed this same thing in the past - about bush babies coming in much larger than the CH that were shipped even before their first sheds, and the fact that ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, and its in babies' best interests to eat as much as they can as quickly as they can to grow and become less of a chance of becoming prey themselves.

    Wow - that's a run on sentence isn't it? LOL

    As a result of those conversations, I do feed my babies every 4 to 5 days and feed them on that schedule until they start to consistently refuse on that schedule. Only then do I move them to about a once a week schedule. But if I see an older animal looking like they may be looking for food before 7 days, I do offer them food.

    That's what I like about learning from others - it opens your mind to think outside the box.

    There are certainly tried and true "guidelines" that we like to recommend to a new keeper, because we know that they work. But for someone who has some experience under their belt (and each person will have to define "experience" for themselves, I'm not going to), there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box.

    When I got my first ball python, I was very black and white with my "rules". Temps had to be X and humidity had to be X - no flexibility in that. Then I read VPI's book and Kevin McCurley's book, and talked to other breeders - and guess what? They all did things a little differently, and they all had healthy animals. Some kept their animals much cooler than I would have at the time, and others bred smaller than I would have, etc. It really made me stop and think and start to be more flexible in my thinking and start learning to read my animals. I stopped freaking out if the cool side of my enclosure dipped into the mid to upper 70's if there was still an appropriate basking spot available on the warm side. Did you know that the Barkers have a whole building of females that cool into the upper 60's in the winter? Learned that from reading their book. And I learned from my own experience that when the cool side of my enclosure dipped into the mid to upper 70's, nothing bad happened, no RI's, etc - as long as there was an appropriate basking area.

    So - I like posts like this, that get people to think outside their comfort zone. There are many ways to successfully keep ball pythons. One way isn't necessarily THE way. I'll repeat what I said above, this forum does tend to offer a "set" way to keep ball pythons, which I think is fine for a new keeper - they need to get the basics down. Once the basics are mastered, there's no reason why they can't start to change things up and see what works best for them!
  • 11-26-2009, 11:04 AM
    Wh00h0069
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I have "power-fed" a ball python with no ill effects. The problem is that people have different meanings of power-feeding. I feed him a small meal every few days until he was about 500 grams. He stopped eating after this and did not eat for a few months. Eventually the ones that hatched out about the same time he did grew larger than him. He started eating again, and is doing fine now.
  • 11-27-2009, 08:43 AM
    Danounet
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Just to add, My little 3 month spider female arrived to me at 107g very healthy. Ofcourse with the shipping and the settling after that, there was a week or so that she didnt eat. I have been feeding her every 4 days mostly, sometimes 3. She ate without thinking about it twice, live. I've had her for a month now and she went from 107 to 200+ in less than a month. She is NOT fat at all, but much bigger now. She shed before being shipped to me, and now she just went into sheding now.
  • 11-27-2009, 08:48 AM
    pavlovk1025
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I nominate myself to go live in the wild with ball pythons like Dian Fossey did with gorillas. Ill let you know what I turn up. Sssssss
  • 11-29-2009, 01:08 AM
    Mike Schultz
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Those breeders are only in it for the ducats, they just cram rats down their snakes' throats until they can breed and make them more money!!!!111!

    :D

    I figure if my snake will eat and crap every 3-4 days, then I may as well let him!
  • 11-29-2009, 09:44 AM
    Matt K
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I have to believe that wild neonate Ball Pythons would power-feed themselves--especially when rodents are involved. I could be off base here, but imagining a wild neonate searching for an appropriate sized food item, I can really only think of one scenario, and that scenario involves the snake finding a litter of rat or mice, or whatever X rodent pups. Given this does happen, I can imagine it being in the snakes best interest to down as many of the young rodents as possible from that source, and can't see the snake passing up on its find to just have one and leave to never return. I imagine that a snake would take a prey item or two, leave, return to the same site, and repeat until the litter was at least well depleted, and/or until the given prey size were to become unrealistically big. In this scenario, it seems relatively likely that the X rodents would have their next litter in the same or a nearby location, and the process could repeat itself. Once the snake outgrows the rodent young, and moves up to adult rodents, the scenario changes, as once you eliminate the adults, more effort and activity would have to be put into locating and catching more adult prey; this could account for slower growth and more infrequent meals in adult Ball Pythons. It's much easier to rely on the highly fecund nature of rodents than it is to rely on finding individual adult animals. Anywho, just a thought, but it seems pretty likely in my eyes. On the other hand, I have absolutely no in-field experience with wild Ball Pythons, so this is completely theoretical and speculative on my part, haha, so take it with a grain of salt.

    **Edit**
    P.S. BG, the third person approach to your posts almost forces me to read everything you type, as I'm constantly looking for you to slip up, haha. Maybe this is intentional, or maybe it's not, but either way it is a good strategy for getting people to read the entirety of your posts. Just thought I'd add that, haha.

    Cheers,
    -Matt
  • 11-29-2009, 09:56 AM
    Freakie_frog
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    BG,

    I also subscribe to the idea that these animals as babys eat way more than we provide them. It makes scense that they would want to pack on as much size as possiable in the early month to quickly move from the prey item stage to the preditor stage of life.

    Like you I think there is a fine line between feeding enough to promote proper weight and growth and over feeding. I like to stick to the 5/1000 rule I feed every 5 days till they hit 1000 grams then I cut back to 7 days. I have seen animals go from 200+ grams to 1500+ grams in a matter of under a year..

    These animals are neither fat nor unhealthy and will take a meal every week come hell or high water..
  • 11-29-2009, 12:10 PM
    greghall
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Big Gunns View Post
    It's gonna be hard to "define". There's not many people qualified to "define" it, since most people have no clue how much wild animals eat.

    You're loving that third person talk aren't yah?

    I agree 110% with you BG I feed the crap out of my hatchlings this year & they are super nice & plump,compared to others that keep theirs so they dont have to put out the money to feed them good .same snake every show same size no growth mine will be twice the size as they were last show & hopefully sell better than a skinny 80 grammer. BP's are evolved to eat & fast thats because some years it was feast or famine for them thats why I believe they go off feed sometimes during their lives.Also there are alot of so called experts on her that have a one or two BP's that give advice when you cant really begin to understand them unless you keep many of them Im no expert at all & learn everyday & have been only keeping for 3 years & have 27 BPs as of now.
  • 11-30-2009, 03:50 AM
    Eventide
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Well, I'll explain my opinion on this, though my definition of "power-feeding" is clearly different from everyone else who has posted so far.

    To me, power-feeding is letting the snake grab one prey item and then continuing to feed by inserting the head of the next prey item into the snake's mouth while he's finishing the first one. This triggers the automatic feeding response, and the snake continues chowing down.

    The only time I do this is when I feel the snake is too thin and needs to gain weight. This is especially true when I have a problem feeder. For example, right now, my two breeder males have been refusing food for the past couple months. One won't eat anything; the other will sometimes eat a live mouse if I give him enough time. If he does eat a mouse, I'll usually follow that one with another one or two f/t mice. He's not dangerously thin, by any means, but he's thinner than I'd like him to be. Could he continue to go without eating until he feels like he's done with breeding? Sure. However, I'd rather he stay as well-fed as possible, even if he's only breeding with one female every two weeks! ;)

    As for the frequent-feeding definition of power-feeding, I will feed young snakes twice a week if they're that hungry. They won't eat when they're not hungry, from what I've seen, especially if they're warm and comfy. (At least, that's the way my snakes behave.) Otherwise, I just feed them once a week, as much or little as they want to eat. I do have some chubby juveniles, but my adults are good-sized without being obese.

    So...yeah...that's my take. Stuffing a snake just to get it up to breeding weight as fast as possible, however, I don't like. Doing so is putting one's own wants and priorities ahead of the snake's...and that is dangerous territory. With a few exceptions, the snakes know what they're doing and will act accordingly.
  • 11-30-2009, 04:19 AM
    jeff122573
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I agree. Right now my female isn't even eating but my male hardly ever refuses. He eats around every seven days. My female just got over 600 grams and completely stopped eating. They both just turned 1 year. And no I'm not breeding female. Mother nature has to know what's going on. They'll eat when they are ready and eat as many they want
  • 11-30-2009, 12:12 PM
    WingedWolfPsion
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I agree, power-feeding is giving the animal more food than it's willing to take on its own.
    If the snake just eats frequently, and it's not showing any developmental abnormalities (pinhead syndrome), then it's not being power fed.
  • 11-30-2009, 07:21 PM
    Quiet Tempest
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I consider "power-feeding" to be along the lines of manipulating a snake to eat more than it would/could on its own so I agree with BG and many other posters above.

    I think that because scheduled/rationed feeding is so commonplace with snakes, it's easy (especially for relatively new keepers) to jump to the assumption that altering this prescribed amount of prey items or the set amount of days between feeds is along the lines of "power feeding". That really isn't the case, though, not by a long shot.
  • 11-30-2009, 10:32 PM
    jjmitchell
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I dont know,I dont have much experience, but I think if an animal is hungry it will eat. With a steady feeding schedule it would be abnormal for an animal to gorge itself underatanding that it will be fed again at a normal interval.... My understanding of power feeding is tricking an animal into eating extra by feeding regular size meal and putting another regular size meal in behind it while the first is being swallowed so the snake just keeps swallowing it down... may be wrong and i am willing to admit that i dont have much experience, but this seems to make sense to me.
  • 12-06-2009, 09:05 PM
    Kaoslb
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    So I have fed my two ball pythons on a 4-5 day feeding schedule and between 15-20% of their body weight each feeding. The male was an august baby and the female is a september baby. They are both at 300 grams now. I have never "forced" a feeding to either snake. They have yet to refuse a prey item. However, now the female is showing skin between her scales. In another thread I posted, it was stated that skin showing between scales is a sign of obesity. BG/others what are your thoughts on this? How do you guys define "nice and plump"?
  • 12-07-2009, 04:30 AM
    AMPearce
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Big Gunns View Post
    Big Gunns would like to point this out. BG is not saying that if you feed your snake 24/7 it will be fine. All BG is saying is that in his experience he hasn't seen anyone really have any problems with heavy feed schedules....although BG thinks there may be some effects later in life for the animals.


    If an animals dies, who's to say it died from heavy feeding anyway. BG has had boas with cancer that were not fed heavy. It's kinda hard to prove what caused an animal to die.

    To be safe though, BG thinks it's probably best for the animal not to feed it more than a couple times a week at most.:gj:

    BG you're right to question weather power feading can cause anything bad.

    It would be really hard to prove that power-feeding is the cause of sick (or whatever) snakes. Scientificly it's hard to prove that anything causes anything. If power-fed snakes are less healthy then others that would only show a correlation between the two events. Thats would still be hard because every other factor would have to be constant between the snakes. You can prove that the cause of you boas' death's were cancer but you cannot prove what caused the cancer.

    Its like all these people that always go around saying things cause cancer. Scientificly you can't prove that anything causes cancer...well you could but it's illegal.

    Sorry to be nit-picky, I just really enjoy science.
  • 12-07-2009, 04:38 AM
    Big Gunns
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kaoslb View Post
    So I have fed my two ball pythons on a 4-5 day feeding schedule and between 15-20% of their body weight each feeding. The male was an august baby and the female is a september baby. They are both at 300 grams now. I have never "forced" a feeding to either snake. They have yet to refuse a prey item. However, now the female is showing skin between her scales. In another thread I posted, it was stated that skin showing between scales is a sign of obesity. BG/others what are your thoughts on this? How do you guys define "nice and plump"?

    If there is skin showing between her scales all the time, then she is kinda fat. "Nice and plump" is hard to define, but BG knows it when he sees it.:D Just use your best judgment on your snake. It does sound like it might be a leeetle "plump" though if you can see skin all the time.

    A Ball Python can easily gain 100 grams a month and not be too fat in BG's opinion.
  • 12-07-2009, 10:39 AM
    Southernshooter
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Since Big Gunns started this topic, In honor of him, Southernshooter shall speak 3rd person

    Southernshooter thinks that one should remember is snakes can be fed and be kept healthy by feeding a lot more than owners do. Southernshooter says keep in mind snakes have a metabolisim system just like people. If you feed them every day they will start to want food every day and if you feed them every 2 or 3 days they will want it every 2 or 3 days. Don't give the snake weird feeding schedules like everyday for 3 or 4 days and then all of a sudden drop them back to once a week, then start back every 2 or 3 days.
    Southernshooter also says to use your own judgement if you can feed every 2 or 3 days and your snake doesn't get so fat she can't move, Then go for it.
  • 12-07-2009, 11:25 AM
    harm286
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Now this doesn't mean you should slam every single thing your snake will eat down it's throat 24/7. All BG is pointing out is that they seem to eat a whole lot more than you would think they do in the wild. Big Gunns is sure that females are up to breeding size within 18 months in the wild.


    :rofl: 24/7 lmao
  • 12-07-2009, 11:28 AM
    harm286
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AMPearce View Post
    BG you're right to question weather power feading can cause anything bad.

    It would be really hard to prove that power-feeding is the cause of sick (or whatever) snakes. Scientificly it's hard to prove that anything causes anything. If power-fed snakes are less healthy then others that would only show a correlation between the two events. Thats would still be hard because every other factor would have to be constant between the snakes. You can prove that the cause of you boas' death's were cancer but you cannot prove what caused the cancer.

    Its like all these people that always go around saying things cause cancer. Scientificly you can't prove that anything causes cancer...well you could but it's illegal.

    Sorry to be nit-picky, I just really enjoy science.

    I found out peanutbutter causes cancer:O
  • 12-07-2009, 12:19 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Bleating Goat has brought up a subject that is often referred to but never discussed in any significant detail.

    Over the years I have found that snakes often do best when fed at the rate they chose, not some scheduled interval rigidly adhered to by the keeper.

    Some species of boids will readily eat every 4 or so days when they are young. Some young colubrids will eat more frequently. A lot of my colubrids will eat like the blazes for their first 14 to 16 months, then taper down - on their own.

    If you keep accurate records, you can see the feeding patterns and plan accordingly. My antaresia males eat like clockwork from February to September - bulking up for the mating season. Around late August they taper down, taking a medium sized meal every two weeks or so until they stop altogether.

    My aspidities follow a similar pattern - wherein the males "power feed" themselves from July through October, then will eat once every three weeks or so until mid January.

    During the heavy feeding period, my large black headed male and my woma males will eat large meals every 6 to 8 days.

    Young colubrids, notably clelia and drymarchon, are constantly hungry. However, once sated, they will stop. It is not uncommon to have young drys eat several small items, poop two days later and be on the prowl for more food the following day.

    Now, there are a lot of species I don't keep, and these guidelines may not apply. It seems to me that if given the opportunity, most snakes will chose a schedule that works right for them.
  • 12-07-2009, 02:16 PM
    SlitherinSisters
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    I don't have a problem with power feeding either. I've done it with my babies to bulk them up. My power feeding schedule is every 3-4 days.

    I DO have a problem with people who have 1 year old females that are over 1,000 grams and have white bulging between their scales. I don't understand why anyone would think it's a good idea to breed a 1 year old girl that is terribly obese :confused:
  • 01-02-2010, 01:58 PM
    Vypyrz
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Instead of starting a new thread about this, I figured I would just resurrect this one since what I found seems to apply here. Basically, it is an ad I found on KS, and to protect the identity of the poster, I will only post the pic and text of the ad. I'm not trying to criticise the poster, I just think it may be a good example of power feeding for the sake of breeding. Honestly, I wasn't aware that a 5 month old, 600g male was ready to breed. Maybe some of the breeders could put out some opinions on this...

    Rob

    Quote:


    https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../8/1002891.jpg

    This is a male super pastel yellow belly, hatched five months ago, eating like a monster! He just started to breed a bumble bee female this week! Already over 600 grams and still eating well, just ate today! Amazing color! Pics are not even close to how intense his purple and yellow is in person! Amazing genetic potential as well. You will not find many of these around let alone for sale.



  • 01-02-2010, 07:03 PM
    Danounet
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Males can start breeding breeding very young, within the year, if they are up for it. I am not sure about the weight at that age though...
  • 01-03-2010, 12:27 PM
    OhhWatALoser
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vypyrz View Post
    Instead of starting a new thread about this, I figured I would just resurrect this one since what I found seems to apply here. Basically, it is an ad I found on KS, and to protect the identity of the poster, I will only post the pic and text of the ad. I'm not trying to criticise the poster, I just think it may be a good example of power feeding for the sake of breeding. Honestly, I wasn't aware that a 5 month old, 600g male was ready to breed. Maybe some of the breeders could put out some opinions on this...

    Rob

    males can breed when ever they feel like it, I've seen 400 gram male breed and someone on this forum claim to have bred a 350 gram 4 month old. all males have to do is start the baby process. females have the make the babies big difference. given my male was older about 7 months but he was breeding at 550 grams and im sure he would of done it sooner.

    nothing wrong with that snake
  • 01-03-2010, 05:09 PM
    Vypyrz
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser View Post
    males can breed when ever they feel like it, I've seen 400 gram male breed and someone on this forum claim to have bred a 350 gram 4 month old. all males have to do is start the baby process. females have the make the babies big difference. given my male was older about 7 months but he was breeding at 550 grams and im sure he would of done it sooner.

    nothing wrong with that snake

    Thanks for explaining that... :gj:

    I guess the only reason for getting a young males weight up then would be in case he goes off feed for the breeding season. But, I've also heard some people say that it can make them "lazy lovers". So I guess in the end, it depends on the individual snake...
  • 01-03-2010, 10:27 PM
    OhhWatALoser
    Re: "Power feeding" BG's perspective.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vypyrz View Post
    Thanks for explaining that... :gj:

    I guess the only reason for getting a young males weight up then would be in case he goes off feed for the breeding season. But, I've also heard some people say that it can make them "lazy lovers". So I guess in the end, it depends on the individual snake...


    their talking about 1500+ gram males, I've always been told to try to keep males in the 500-1000 range. but biggest male i got is around 800 right now... so I donno personally, but im going to try to keep him in that range.

    but im sure if he grew and ended up being 4.5 feet or bigger he might be underweight at 1000 grams...seem like you be aiming more for a toned male rather than a weight range. guess ill find out.
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