Cleanest bel's ?

What combo produces the cleanest Blue eyed Lucy's?
I have only seen the Mohave X Mohave Bel in person.

According to Ralph Davis the cleanest lucy's are created by breeding Platty to Lesser if you havent been to his site already I'd highly recommend checking it out. He has write-ups on many differnt morphs.

I always thought the lesser pied was the cleanest.

I just read your post again. I'm not sure what color their eyes are.

..lesser pied is not a BEL..

lesser x lesser and lesser x butter and butter x butter are all pretty good and are a great choice if you want an all white, patternless snake.

I think het russos also make very nice and clean BELs.

Mojos, specials, phantoms and the other morphs in the BEL complex seem to leave coloration or patterning in.

Ralph Davis has a video on youtube where he is showing his all white lesser pied. He also claims it is the cleaneast all white snake.

lesser pied doesn't have blue eyes

from everything I've seen, just don't use mojave and you'll get a clean white snake

I stand corrected. I thought an all white snake was a bel (regardless on eye color).

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

just don't use mojave and you'll get a clean white snake

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Actually Mojave X Mocha makes a REALLY white BEL and same with Lesser X Mojave we hatched out 3 Lesser X Mojave Bels this year and they are PURE white!:salute:

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Originally Posted by marct

I stand corrected. I thought an all white snake was a bel (regardless on eye color).

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bel = Blue Eye'd Leucistic

Leucistic means lacking all pigment in the skin. which alot of snakes we call leucistic arn't true leucistics such as the super mojave because they do have pigment in the skin... so yea. theres also super fires which are black eye'd leucistics, but most of them have yellow spots which also makes them not true leucistics lol. i guess in the snake world "close enough" is good enough to call them leucistic.

Lesser/Butter x Lesser/Butter = Clean
Lesser/Butter x Phantom/Mystic = Clean
Lesser/Butter x Russo Het = Clean
Russo Het x Russo Het = Clean
Anything with Mojave = Not pure white
I donno if a Russo Het x Phantom/Mystic has been done...

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Originally Posted by Sloanreptiles

Actually Mojave X Mocha makes a REALLY white BEL and same with Lesser X Mojave we hatched out 3 Lesser X Mojave Bels this year and they are PURE white!:salute:

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The pics you posted looked pretty yellowed out to me.

Thats because he was in shed ill take some new ones and post them up. Ill take one next to a Super Mojave for comparison.

Heres a Lesser X Mojave
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/DSC_1412.jpg
And a lesser X Mojave next to a Super Mojave
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/DSC_1421.jpg

I always thought the purest white BELs were the White Diamonds (Super Russo het Leucisitc)....

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Originally Posted by Eventide

I always thought the purest white BELs were the White Diamonds (Super Russo het Leucisitc)....

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Thats what I thought but I saw a few adults from a local breeder and they have a really thick YELLOW stripe running down their whole back, its actually really cool! I also saw a few babies and the stripe starts out grey.

Pieds are partial Leucistics, in case anyone didn't know.

And I think most of the Lesser combos and the Vin Russo White Diamonds all tend to be really nice white snakes.

Also to the person who said he saw Lucys with yellow stripes, are you sure they werent Ivorys? Because those are white with a yellow stripe.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Pieds are partial Leucistics, in case anyone didn't know.

And I think most of the Lesser combos and the Vin Russo White Diamonds all tend to be really nice white snakes.

Also to the person who said he saw Lucys with yellow stripes, are you sure they werent Ivorys? Because those are white with a yellow stripe.

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Possitive, we have two friends locally that have a pair each and they are White Diamonds, definently not an Ivory because they both have Ivories too. Heres a link to a thread of White Diamonds and Ivories.. They are half way down the page... http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=13209

just kinda fishy because thats the very first BEL i've seen that looks EXACTLY like a Ivory...let alone being from russo x russo... thats new.

They look nothing like an Ivory in person though, we have seen our fair share of Ivories to know what they look like lol. Now Russo to Lesser is definatly one of the whitest.

Ive seen quit a few Lesser x Mojave BELS.. and they look all white to me. the ones ive seen range from 200-800ish grams.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Anything with Mojave = Not pure white
..

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That is not true. I have a lesser x lesser BEL, and a Lesser x Mojave BEL. Both look exactly the same as far as cleaness of the white goes. The only way I can tell them apart is that the Lesser x Mojaves does not have the bulging bug eyes that the Lesser x lesser BEL does (Just another little thing no one talks about). If I would have known about the eye problems I would have never tried to produce a Lesser x lesser BEL. I am hoping the Lesser x Mojave BEL does not develop this. I'll have to wait until it grows a bit to know for sure.

Hi,

What's the skinny on the bug eyes?

Could you share any pics showing it?

I had hoped to make lesser x lesser BEL's in the future but could still change track without too much extra heartache if I need to.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

What's the skinny on the bug eyes?

Could you share any pics showing it?

I had hoped to make lesser x lesser BEL's in the future but could still change track without too much extra heartache if I need to.


dr del

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I have personally never heard of this, but if bulging eyes would not affect the snake in any way, I would still breed for them.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

..lesser pied is not a BEL..

lesser x lesser and lesser x butter and butter x butter are all pretty good and are a great choice if you want an all white, patternless snake.

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Arent Lessers and butters the same?? how can you tell them apart?

It's hard to get a good pic of it but it is easy to see in person. They seem to hatch out totally normal looking and it starts becoming apparent as they grow. I don't think it happens to all of them but a good percentage do have it.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN2947.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN2944.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN2945.jpg

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Originally Posted by pfan151

That is not true. I have a lesser x lesser BEL, and a Lesser x Mojave BEL. Both look exactly the same as far as cleaness of the white goes. The only way I can tell them apart is that the Lesser x Mojaves does not have the bulging bug eyes that the Lesser x lesser BEL does (Just another little thing no one talks about). If I would have known about the eye problems I would have never tried to produce a Lesser x lesser BEL. I am hoping the Lesser x Mojave BEL does not develop this. I'll have to wait until it grows a bit to know for sure.

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every adult mojave x lesser i've seen has quite the yellow hue to them. pictures on here and in person. I havn't seen one stay pure white nor anything with mojave for that matter.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

every adult mojave x lesser i've seen has quite the yellow hue to them. pictures on here and in person. I havn't seen one stay pure white nor anything with mojave for that matter.

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Thats weird because every Lesser X Mojave and every Mocha X Mojave I have ever seen is pure white and ours is 250 grams and still completely white!

Hi,

Thank you for sharing those pictures.

I had truly never heard of that being a problem with Lessers. :(

Do butters suffer the same problem? I know I can't tell the difference from pics but if it avoided that problem I'd flippin well learn.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,


Do butters suffer the same problem? I know I can't tell the difference from pics but if it avoided that problem I'd flippin well learn.


dr del

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Can't say for sure but I would imagine it's the same since I think they are the exact same snake. Using mojave x lesser supposedly gets rid of it but I can't say for sure that is true either. I have learned never to believe anything when it comes to things like this until I prove it myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

every adult mojave x lesser i've seen has quite the yellow hue to them. pictures on here and in person. I havn't seen one stay pure white nor anything with mojave for that matter.

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How many lesser x lesser BEL's have you seen? I could take a pic of them right next to each other if you would like. All I can tell you is that I own one of each and they are indistinguishable as far a color goes.

The smaller one is the lesser x mojave, and the larger is the pure lesser. I could not get the greatest pic because they would not hold still, but you can still see the color is the same. Neither or them are true pure white IMO but if you see them right after a fresh shed they are pretty close. IMO The only way to get a true bright white snake is with a lesser pied. That is a WHITE snake.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN3161.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sloanreptiles

Thats weird because every Lesser X Mojave and every Mocha X Mojave I have ever seen is pure white and ours is 250 grams and still completely white!

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250 is far from adult

pfan151 its probally the pictures but the smaller ones looks off white to me, and how big are they?

also this is the first time I've herd of the bug eye thing and yours doesn't seem to have it

I've seen the bug eye problem in person it was a super butter at daytona in Kim Bell's display. Its not a real big deal to me, but of course I'd rather have the regular look but I won't lose any sleep if I produce a super lesser that has them. And I agree with John the 2 snakes he produced are pretty much indistinguishable, and I too will be breeding for super lesser's and lesser x mojo soon.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

I've seen the bug eye problem in person it was a super butter at daytona in Kim Bell's display. Its not a real big deal to me, but of course I'd rather have the regular look but I won't lose any sleep if I produce a super lesser that has them. And I agree with John the 2 snakes he produced are pretty much indistinguishable, and I too will be breeding for super lesser's and lesser x mojo soon.

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Not a huge deal to me either, but just another one of those things that are hidden that pisses me off. Just like the wobbling spiders were back in the day.

It's interesting about the bug eyes since most Leucistic Texas rat snakes have the same thing. I wonder if it's something that comes with being leucistic?

I've heard about it before in super lessers, but this is the first time I've seen pictures. Is this more common or less common? Did you produce this one yourself? Who did you get your lessers from? Where they out-bred or closely related?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

It's interesting about the bug eyes since most Leucistic Texas rat snakes have the same thing. I wonder if it's something that comes with being leucistic?

I've heard about it before in super lessers, but this is the first time I've seen pictures. Is this more common or less common? Did you produce this one yourself? Who did you get your lessers from? Where they out-bred or closely related?

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I produced it myself. From what I have heard it's a 50/50 thing whether they have it or not. I don't want to say where mine came from because I don't want to possibly hurt their business over something that is not their fault, but they were both from totally different breeders in different years. Luckily it does not seem to be nearly as bad as the texas rats that I have seen. Those are just disturbing to me.

Hi,

Do you feel it's something that it might be possible to remove from the morph by selective breeding?

Or is it so closely linked to the morph it's in there to stay like the spider wobbles?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Do you feel it's something that it might be possible to remove from the morph by selective breeding?

Or is it so closely linked to the morph it's in there to stay like the spider wobbles?


dr del

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if what they say is true and 50% of them have it, it most likly linked with the morph. Inbreeding if anything should cause random deformities, not the exact same one over and over.

Here is my Super mojave. She could be a Super Mojave Sulfur.

Dave


http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2864.jpg

[IMG]http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2863.jpg[/IMG]

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2853.jpg

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

250 is far from adult

pfan151 its probally the pictures but the smaller ones looks off white to me, and how big are they?

also this is the first time I've herd of the bug eye thing and yours doesn't seem to have it

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Im not going to argue with you but we have plenty of friends with adult Lesser X Mojaves that are as white as when they first hatched, when you have one you'll know.

Here's an '08 mojave x lesser leucistic breeding a Russo het female:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z...n/DSC_1261.jpg

He is still really nice and white.

Here he is with his clutchmates right after hatching:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z...tic_clutch.jpg

Here is a sub question for the topic:

The blues of the yes, I heard that they are different for the different colorations so:

Which has the deepest blues, and which has the brightest/lightest blue?