Help, something is terribly wrong here!

Hey everyone,

I need some help from those with experience out there. I hatched out some babies in September and all, but one is now gone. Each were eating good and looking great. I have one left over who I am holding for a friend of mine, but something is going horribly wrong.

She was looking rather skinny to me and all I had were these puny fuzzies, I managed to get my hands on a smaller sized hopper that was about the same size as her middle. She ate it no problem, but about a day later I found it regurged inside her bin in the hatchling rack. I don't know why this happened as it was only a small lump and should have been digested just fine. I went about feeding her again though the next week...this time giving just two small fuzzies to see what would happen. She ate them and didn't regurge, but she swelled drastically.

She is very squishy and bloated right now. I assumed she would use the bathroom, but it's been two weeks and she has only proceeded to pee. I attempted to feed her another two small fuzzies last night and today I find the both of them regurged! I -know- those are not too big for her to digest and she took two of them before....what could be the problem here?

Is this some sort of impaction? I feel nothing solid inside her though and down near the base of her tail through a flash light it's all liquid nothing solid until you go higher up. I need to know what might be going on, she will go to a vet either way, but any ideas?

As a side note, she is getting ready to shed and it will be her second one out of the egg. No mites, clean water, good temps, misted for humidity, and was doing fine until recently (besides worrying me and looking a bit skinny).

Here are pictures...

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...90/bloated.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/bloated7.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/bloated6.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/bloated4.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/bloated2.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/bloated5.jpg

The rodents might be bad, or you didn't thaw them properly. Size is not the only reason why a snake would regurg.

Generally, you should not offer food for 2 weeks after a regurg to let the digestive system recover.

Since you were feeding the same rodents and kept getting bad results, it leads me to believe that there is something wrong with them. I really don't know though. That is my best guess.

Take the snake to the vet tomorrow and maybe they can help determine what is up.

Actually that looks like something else. I don't know the name off the top of my head, but I do know its not good. I believe it has to do w/ yolk absorption not getting digested and creating a block, which I believe is untreatable unfortunately. I'm not at my house, and don't have my Kevin McCurley book w/ me. But I do know it looks just like this. Not saying that this IS what the problem is, but it could be. I'm looking online now, but I'm having a hard time uncovering anything. Will let you know if I find anything useful! Good Luck!

Theres no way that can be a problem with the rodent. They would regurg, and they wouldn't be bloated like that. What happens with the yolk getting impacted is that snake inevitibly starves because it can't digest a meal. Hence why its so skinny on the upper half of his body.

Has she had regular bowel movements prior to this? What's the temp reading in your hatchling rack?

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Originally Posted by dsmalex97

Theres no way that can be a problem with the rodent. They would regurg, and they wouldn't be bloated like that. What happens with the yolk getting impacted is that snake inevitibly starves because it can't digest a meal. Hence why its so skinny on the upper half of his body.

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Yeah, I -know- it's not the rodents because I was feeding them all the same and even another one was able to easily digest two of these smaller fuzzies without a problem.

She WAS getting very skinny looking to me with her back bone showing way more so than her brother and sisters so I started wondering if she needed more and wasn't getting enough from one small fuzzy. If it's this yolk thing that is going to be a HORRIBLE problem since my friend is busy buying all she can for the setup ect ect and is nearly finished now. I don't have any other babies right now either so this will be awful news. Not to mention I fell so BAD for this little girl now if she is going to DIE! It's probably what you are decribing and what you have in your book.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

Has she had regular bowel movements prior to this? What's the temp reading in your hatchling rack?

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The temps are around 87 on the warm side and 80-82 overall on the cool inside of her bin. She did poop just ONCE a tiny little thing a long time ago, but no, now that you mention it nothing since then and she had been eating before she got all bloated. (peeing many times with those white build-ups)

What I don't understand is that she ate before, has BEEN eating but regurged a hopper and started to bloat after that, and now then regurged two weeks later when given two more fuzzies again.

I am calling the vet to try and get in tomorrow, but it will depend on whether or not my herp vet is in on that day. I am hoping so! T_T

Temperatures need to be a good bit higher. Try for 92-94(preferably 94) on hot side, and 10 degrees cooler on cool side. Low heat equals less than optimal digestion, which is what she's trying to tell you by regurgitating.

I would have a fecal done on her because she has that bloated, yet skeletal, look to her.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Temperatures need to be a good bit higher. Try for 92-94(preferably 94) on hot side, and 10 degrees cooler on cool side. Low heat equals less than optimal digestion, which is what she's trying to tell you by regurgitating.

I would have a fecal done on her because she has that bloated, yet skeletal, look to her.

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She will not poop/has not for a fecal examine.

I am not sure either how to go about getting a very cool side if I turn the heat up, it just gets warm in there anyway, but I will turn it up and see what I can do to get it just right.

I sure hope that little peanut is ok. I'm so sorry you are going through this.
Your in our thoughts:(

Don't you have thermostats? Just turn the thermostat up and it will regulate itself. Not too difficult.

If the room gets up to 85, it's fine. As long as they have a 10-degree difference, you don't need a "very" cool side. 70s is way too cool, especially for babies. I have kept mine at 95/85 since 2003 and they are doing great.

She doesn't have to have a BM for a fecal exam to be performed. The vet will take a fecal loup, insert it into the snake's vent and will perform the test on any material that is obtained. Just take the snake in and have it done. That way you can know if your other snakes could be infected as well.

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I sure hope that little peanut is ok. I'm so sorry you are going through this.
Your in our thoughts:(

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Thank you. I am so very upset over this and am dreading it being something that isn't treatable.

She was the very first pip/baby I ever have had come out of a ball python egg....I am going to just sob if she doesn't make it! :tears:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Don't you have thermostats? Just turn the thermostat up and it will regulate itself. Not too difficult.

If the room gets up to 85, it's fine. As long as they have a 10-degree difference, you don't need a "very" cool side. 70s is way too cool, especially for babies. I have kept mine at 95/85 since 2003 and they are doing great.

She doesn't have to have a BM for a fecal exam to be performed. The vet will take a fecal loup, insert it into the snake's vent and will perform the test on any material that is obtained. Just take the snake in and have it done. That way you can know if your other snakes could be infected as well.

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Oooh, okay, okay yes, I'm sorry I misunderstood that. I thought you were telling me to have the 90+ warm side and then have ten degrees lower than what I -already- did. I was very very confused @_@ and not exactly sure you knew what you were talking about either, lol. (would be way too cool)

Also okay, I will ask my vet about this. How could it infect the other snakes? Could they too have a blockage from the yolk/being genetic or are you leaning more towards internal parasites on that one?

Wow I am so sorry to hear you are going through this. I have no words of advice since I (in my few months) have never seen this. Just think positive...it will be something they can treat. Just keep thinking that!!!

Please keep us updated as to what is going on.

Remember...positive thoughts!!!!!

It might be possible that whatever food item remains in your snake's digestive tract is rotting faster than the snake can digest it if the heating wasn't right and/or the food item was too big. That might explain the distended stomach and refusal to feed but if that's the case and it can't purge itself, the putrefying item inside could kill it. Definitely get to a vet asap.

Going to the vet today at 11:45 with her to see what is going on. Hopefully she will make it! *crosses fingers and feels awful*

I would soak her in warm water for a few hours. I would bet she lets out a huge amount of feces. I have had a few times in the past where I had to massage out the feces after soaking if just being in the water did not do the trick. I would bet there is a huge urate stuck right by the vent that is keeping her from going on her own. Usually once you get that first urate out the flood gates will open and there will be a a bunch that comes out easily after that. I would do it over a bucket.

Unless you have a very good exotics vet I think you are wasting your money by going to the vet. IMO most vets do more harm than good when it comes to reptiles.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I would soak her in warm water for a few hours. I would bet she lets out a huge amount of feces. I have had a few times in the past where I had to massage out the feces after soaking if just being in the water did not do the trick. I would bet there is a huge urate stuck right by the vent that is keeping her from going on her own. Usually once you get that first urate out the flood gates will open and there will be a a bunch that comes out easily after that. I would do it over a bucket.

Unless you have a very good exotics vet I think you are wasting your money by going to the vet. IMO most vets do more harm than good when it comes to reptiles.

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I am not sure there is anything in there to come out like you say. I have squeezed her a bit here and there and nothing is close enough to the vent to come out. There was a very -small- urate there and she ended up peeing last night passing it no problem at all.

It only made her extremley skinny right by her tail, but she still remains bloated. The temps have been higher in her cage all night and upon looking this morning she was laying off the warm side anyway, >:l and it's -not- too hot at all.

I am soaking her now, but a vet trip is still worth it IMO. I trust my vet and yes, he is a good one when it comes to my reptiles. He's helped me out a lot so far and I hope he can help me out now.

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Originally Posted by Coils

I am not sure there is anything in there to come out like you say. I have squeezed her a bit here and there and nothing is close enough to the vent to come out. There was a very -small- urate there and she ended up peeing last night passing it no problem at all.

It only made her extremley skinny right by her tail, but she still remains bloated. The temps have been higher in her cage all night and upon looking this morning she was laying off the warm side anyway, >:l and it's -not- too hot at all.

I am soaking her now, but a vet trip is still worth it IMO. I trust my vet and yes, he is a good one when it comes to my reptiles. He's helped me out a lot so far and I hope he can help me out now.

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After soaking for an hour or so I would try to see if you can work anything out of her. I would start from just above where the bloating starts and apply some pressure down towards the vent. Don't press too hard but a little pressure will be needed. I actually had to do this with my first het lavender. I paid 5k for her and was very nervous, but she has been fine ever since and laid a great clutch for me this year.

Here is the update,

Sadly enough she has a gasious infection likely from prey being too big, this leading to her bloating. (gas, bateria, ect) I don't understand how this happened since she was getting so skinny eating the smaller prey and all three of her siblings were eating the same exact thing/same exact amount without issues. I even read a number of times that fuzzies (had SMALL ONES) were the right size for hatchling balls pythons. :(

The vet gave me some medication until Monday, but her chances are very slim. You know there is nothing good hearing from the vet that "you may lose this one". I would imagine he is likely preparing me for the worst. I am very upset and feel just horrible about this as -I- will be the cause for her death.

But I will give her the antibiotics until Monday and then hopefull update more as I go along with GOOD news....

Thank you all for your help and I hope my first ball python baby EVER makes it out of this OK. :tears:

Sorry to hear about this little one. :tears:

I'm rooting for her to pull through though!

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Originally Posted by Coils

Here is the update,

Sadly enough she has a gasious infection likely from prey being too big, this leading to her bloating. (gas, bateria, ect) I don't understand how this happened since she was getting so skinny eating the smaller prey and all three of her siblings were eating the same exact thing/same exact amount without issues. I even read a number of times that fuzzies (had SMALL ONES) were the right size for hatchling balls pythons. :(

The vet gave me some medication until Monday, but her chances are very slim. You know there is nothing good hearing from the vet that "you may lose this one". I would imagine he is likely preparing me for the worst. I am very upset and feel just horrible about this as -I- will be the cause for her death.

But I will give her the antibiotics until Monday and then hopefull update more as I go along with GOOD news....

Thank you all for your help and I hope my first ball python baby EVER makes it out of this OK. :tears:

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A gastric infection and nothing he can do...............did the Vet explain to you how he came to this conclusion?

Any idea what medication he gave you?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

A gastric infection and nothing he can do...............did the Vet explain to you how he came to this conclusion?

Any idea what medication he gave you?

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I didn't say there was nothing he could do. Why everyone is so ready to attack a vet I guess I can understand, but I have YET to be steered wrong by him.

I have been going to him for years now and he is the best one for herps in this area and I would trust him with every single one of my exotics. He knows everything they need environment wise ect without having to go "look it up" like those other crappy vets out there.

Believe me I know, I have had vets says(when he was out of town) that even THEY didn't know what was wrong with the animal, let me go look around ONLINE when I did that the day before MYSELF! So sorry, I like him a lot, trust him, and will defend him in what he is doing.

I didn't get the exact name of the antibiotic, (took in multiple animals with lots of questions today) but I asked what it was being given for/what it would do exactly and it will help clear the infection and should reduce the bloating if she makes it until Monday. I am giving it to her as injections until then and I am supposed to call him with the news that day, I am also supposed to call him if anything else happens BEFORE Monday.

She is very very skinny despite having eaten before (missed about 4 weeks NOW though) so it IS very likely she wont pull through this whole thing not only because the infection, but because of her not being able to eat in time.

Hey, don't be too hard on yourself. Freaky things happen, even when you are doing everything right. We lost an adult piebald to a gas-producing GI infection and it wasn't because the food was too big -- it just happened. Hopefully you caught this early and snakey will be OK, but she sounds like she may be a poor-doer/ failure to thrive animal, thus the "you may lose this one" comment.

For the record, we keep our babies around 87F on the warm side and they do great with that.

Did you try massaging everything out of her after soaking? Whether it makes her better in the long run I can't say, but I can say getting all of that gas out of her will make her feel more comfortable. There is really nothing to lose by trying. You will probably have to use a decent amount of pressure to ge it started, but once that initial bit comes out the rest will come out very easily. As I mentioned before I have had a very similar thing happen with a few snakes I have purchased that were maintenance fed by the previous owners. I fed them a proper sized meal when they arrived and their system was not ready for a normal sized meal after only getting meals that were too small for so long. They have always done well and went on to be totally normal snakes. I have not heard of the gaseous infection before. In my case I believe the bloating was caused by the meal not being digested quickly enough and they prey item actually starting to rot which gives off the gas. It's up to you though whether or not to try to relieve the pressure. Good luck with her either way.

Oh Owen, I am so so sorry to hear this.

I think that she is going to pull through! It's my good ju ju for the two of you. Again think positive!!! She can hold on and make it!! She is a tough little chick...didn't you say she was one of the first ones to eat out of all the hatchlings?

As far as you feeling guilty...don't. This sometimes happens and there would of been nothing you could of done. I am not sure about eating something too big thing...but clearly it just did not set right with her...you could not of prevented that! I think that you are going to look back on this as a "whew..that was a scary time" but all worked out!!;)

Hold on....


Now, did your snake always have this condition? Like his appearence did he always look big in the one area of his body. Sounds kind of fishy thought I think. If he always looked like that then I bet you its "hard belly"

Hard Belly- This condition is thought to occur when babies are hatching they are pulled from the egg before they have ample time to absorb the yolk. Some of these babies fail to thrive, while others may live. The hardened yolk may create an obstruction that can not be digested an ultimately the snake starves. There is no cure for this problem.(all info from The Ball Python Manual by Kevin McCurley)

I just really doubt its a gas problem, but regardless it is what it is, and it sucks. I would honestly re-think where your bring your animals. Not saying hes a bad guy, but did he didn't mention this condition and went straight to diagnosing it with gas, sounds kind of like a premature diagnosis. Good luck, and hopefully he turns around.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Did you try massaging everything out of her after soaking? Whether it makes her better in the long run I can't say, but I can say getting all of that gas out of her will make her feel more comfortable. There is really nothing to lose by trying. You will probably have to use a decent amount of pressure to ge it started, but once that initial bit comes out the rest will come out very easily. As I mentioned before I have had a very similar thing happen with a few snakes I have purchased that were maintenance fed by the previous owners. I fed them a proper sized meal when they arrived and their system was not ready for a normal sized meal after only getting meals that were too small for so long. They have always done well and went on to be totally normal snakes. I have not heard of the gaseous infection before. In my case I believe the bloating was caused by the meal not being digested quickly enough and they prey item actually starting to rot which gives off the gas. It's up to you though whether or not to try to relieve the pressure. Good luck with her either way.

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IMO, I think she should just do what the vet said. Right now, especially because she's sad about this whole thing, she shouldn't try anything right now besides doing what the vet said. Just my two cents.

To the OP: Sorry this is happening, I'm hoping for your Ball to pull through. It's always hard losing a pet, even if you didn't even have it long.

too cold 92 to 93 on the hot side for a big meal they need to be warm to digest their meal.

Before we start doubting the vet and giving the poster alternate advise, perhaps we should consider a couple things: 1) we don't have the animal in front of us to examine and 2) a book or two about ball pythons does not a veterinary education make.

Without having the animal in front of you, you can't really say what is going on, and just because you guys haven't heard of gas-producing bacteria does not mean the diagnosis is wrong! In fact, GI infections caused by gas-producing bacteria are quite common in a variety of animals, especially young animals. Furthermore, any type of impaction can cause an overgrowth of Clostridium (gas-producing bacteria) and the treatment would still involve antibiotics.

If the owner of the sick snake is concerned about impaction, I'm sure the vet is able to do an ultrasound or x-ray to help rule in or out this diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by Coils

I didn't say there was nothing he could do. Why everyone is so ready to attack a vet I guess I can understand, but I have YET to be steered wrong by him.

I have been going to him for years now and he is the best one for herps in this area and I would trust him with every single one of my exotics. He knows everything they need environment wise ect without having to go "look it up" like those other crappy vets out there.

Believe me I know, I have had vets says(when he was out of town) that even THEY didn't know what was wrong with the animal, let me go look around ONLINE when I did that the day before MYSELF! So sorry, I like him a lot, trust him, and will defend him in what he is doing.

I didn't get the exact name of the antibiotic, (took in multiple animals with lots of questions today) but I asked what it was being given for/what it would do exactly and it will help clear the infection and should reduce the bloating if she makes it until Monday. I am giving it to her as injections until then and I am supposed to call him with the news that day, I am also supposed to call him if anything else happens BEFORE Monday.

She is very very skinny despite having eaten before (missed about 4 weeks NOW though) so it IS very likely she wont pull through this whole thing not only because the infection, but because of her not being able to eat in time.

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I'm not attacking your Vet, I asked two questions - mainly because I'm curious as to what medication he prescribed.........

............and I'm curious as to how he came to his diagnosis and what his explanation of the problem is.

Most likely he prescribed metronidazole (Flagyl).

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Most likely he prescribed metronidazole (Flagyl).

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Is there an antibiotic of choice for gastric infections, or is the flagyl used because it may have some appetite stimulating properties?

Really sorry to hear that diagnosis. I was hoping that wouldn't have been the problem. :( I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her to respond well to the treatment and pull through for you.

Hey coils....it's Thanksgiving and I was thinking about you and your snake. How is she doing today?

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Originally Posted by greghall

too cold 92 to 93 on the hot side for a big meal they need to be warm to digest their meal.

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are you so sure about that?
id like to see actual proof?

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Originally Posted by greghall

too cold 92 to 93 on the hot side for a big meal they need to be warm to digest their meal.

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Anything over 95 is too warm.. so 92-93 is fine even with a large meal..

Over-heating can cause just as many problems as under-heating..

I just wanted to send you and your little one good thoughts today. I know loosing a baby sucks big time. Hopefully you will get a Thanksgiving miracle today. Here is sending positive healing thoughts your way!

Any updates?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Is there an antibiotic of choice for gastric infections, or is the flagyl used because it may have some appetite stimulating properties?

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Metronidazole/ Flagyl is a narrow-spectrum antibiotic that targets anaerobic bacteria. Clostridium are a genus of anaerobic bacteria that colonize GI tracts and don't cause problems when everything is going well. However, these bacteria produce many deadly toxins and have the potential to quickly kill an animal if they overgrow or get out of the GI tract and into the blood. They also produce gas as bi-product of their metabolism, and as we all know excessive gas in the GI tract is painful. Have you ever seen a dead animal that's been on the side of a road for a couple days and is all bloated? That's the work of the Clostridium in the GI tract producing gas. So metronidazole is a good antibiotic for GI tract infections that are suspected to be caused by Clostridium, and is also good to use when there is compromise of the mucosal barrier of the GI tract, evidenced by blood in the feces.

Metronidazole is also used to treat giardia in dogs, cats, and people and, because it has GI anti-inflammatory properties, also has a role in the treatment of acute diarrhea.

I'm not necessarily questioning the vet's diagnosis, but the vet's explanation as to WHY the infection set in is preposterous under the circumstances. A hopper mouse is the right size for a baby ball python--we all know they can actually eat items 1 1/2 times their width without harm. The snake hadn't even been eating items of a typical size, let alone something too large.

I don't think it's inappropriate to question a vet's knowledge at all--not when so many vets out there have incorrect or sketchy information on herp physiology and care. We can only hope that the vet association adopts a true herp specialization category, as there isn't one at present. (No vet can call themselves a herp specialist).

So, the diagnosis may be right, particularly if the vet actually did some bloodwork, etc--but the claimed cause of the problem, very unlikely to be right.

Fair enough, but the info in this thread isn't enough to stamp the vet in question with the scarlet "U" (for unqualified) in my opinion.

I have heard talk about developing a test for boarding vets in reptile & amphibian medicine. I too hope that happens soon. Then my spouse can stop bugging me about not being board certified in anything.

It would certainly be a welcome addition. Too many folks out there have to guess whether or not their vet actually knows more about reptile care than they do.

Hey guys.....I got a pm from coils and just wanted to update you. I guess his snake is still about the same...no real change as of yet. He is taking her back to the vet on Monday.

He is very down....as any of us would be....so lets give him lots of encouragement on here.

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Hey guys.....I got a pm from coils and just wanted to update you. I guess his snake is still about the same...no real change as of yet. He is taking her back to the vet on Monday.

He is very down....as any of us would be....so lets give him lots of encouragement on here.

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:( Well, "about the same" is better than "worse". I'm still hoping things pan out well.

I know that he was going back to the vet yesterday and I shot him another PM but haven't heard anything...ugh...I don't think that is a good sign.

HOWEVER I AM GOING TO THINK POSITIVE!!!!:rolleyes:

I would soak the snake daily. I've had balls that would need 2-4 soakings before they would let loose. Looking at the one picture, it appears the blockage is at the vent.

I can not see where it was fed to large of a mouse. I also do not see where an infection would cause this issue. I would soak the snake and turn the heat up to 95 degrees in it's cage. Keep a full water bowl, large enough for the snake to soak in if it wants to. Feel the underside of the snake and feel for lumps. Don't squeeze the snake, just run your hand somewhat tightly around the snake from the bottom side.

I do believe if it was a gastric issue, the bloating would be further up the body and not down towards the vent. The bloating appears to start in the stomach but it goes into the vent area. I do not see how any infection could be responsible for this.

How is the snake's attitude. Is it lathargic? Is it jumpy when you hold the snake?

Good Luck!
Jim Smith