Spider bp sick again?

I bought a spider bp about 7 months ago at a reptile show and had problems with him ever since I got him home. His fecal matter was all runny and the smell of it was out of this world. He also drooled a lot after drinking(to the extent where it looked as if everything he drank came back out of his mouth) I took him to the vet where he was dewormed, had a fecal exam, and was given a metronidazole suspension. 2 weeks or so after being treated, he seemed to be fine(no drooling or runny stool.) Now, about 6 months past, his stool seems a little off from the normal(had some odd shaped tiny bug looking things in it) and hes drooling a lot again after drinking. I'm putting him in qt again since I don't want any of my other snakes catching anything if it really is something bad. Do you think he's sick again/still? The breeder is no help since he's a total ***. I already spent around $150 in vet bills on this snake...ug. Please help.

Wait and see after a few more times he defecates to see if it still looks the way it does. Sometimes when a snake drinks water and keeps its head down right after it drank the water will sometimes come out of the mouth. If he was dewormed I don't see how this could happen again unless he has worms again. I would check on the other snakes as well just in case they may have worms in their feces too, and/or doing the same thing your Spider is.

Yeah, all the other snakes seem to be defecating normally. They all seem to be taking their water down alright as well. If his feces get any worse, I'll definately be bringing him into the vet again.

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Originally Posted by Ralphieeeee

Yeah, all the other snakes seem to be defecating normally. They all seem to be taking their water down alright as well. If his feces get any worse, I'll definately be bringing him into the vet again.

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That's a good sign. I would keep him in QT for a while just in case. I would try a different vet if the one you are currently seeing isn't helping much (Since your snake is having the symptoms come back).

What were the results of the fecal exam?

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

What were the results of the fecal exam?

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He had a bunch of flagellates and also had some blood in his stool. I've got to try and find the vet report. I'm thinking there was something else as well in his stool.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

That's a good sign. I would keep him in QT for a while just in case. I would try a different vet if the one you are currently seeing isn't helping much (Since your snake is having the symptoms come back).

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Yeah, will definitely keep him in qt for a while. I was going to try and find another vet that deals with reptiles just to see if the other vet maybe wasn't so great, although he did seem pretty knowledgeable.

How are you keeping the snake? What did these "odd shaped bugs" look like? The more details you give us, the easier it will be for us to help you with your problems.

Your friend,
Mike

Protozoa infections can be tricky. Having never having to treat one myself I can only pass on what I've been told so please take it with a grain of salt. They can be as mild as having a case of the runs to as serious as Cryptosporidiosis or Crypto for short. If it is recurring then it sounds like something that is treatable but you need to get it to the vet ASAP.

Tricky indeed. Hard to diagnose accurately and can be hard to treat due to limited info on what bugs infect reptiles and what drugs these are susceptible to.

I would definetly take him back to the vet.

Update:
A friend is most likely helping me get the snake to the vet tomorrow due to the ridiculous amount of working I've been doing these past 4 weeks and not being able to take off. My bp started bubbling from the mouth,i hear popping noises from his mouth,and excessive saliva is leaking out of his mouth. This HAS to be an RI. Most likely going to bring him to another vet due to the other vet missing out on the RI before, although he did have something else going on, I definitely overpaid for his services which did not get the job done. I just hope it's not too late to help the little guy out.

Hi,

Do you think it would be worth spending a little extra to get the culture done?


dr del

I was aiming for $100 or under on this vet visit to get him better, but I'm guessing it might cost a little more? What test(s) should be taken for an RI?

Hi,

Well it depends on the vets opinion really.

But the general idea was to do a culture from the snakes mouth so that you can be sure the course of treatment will actually be as effective as possible.

Since it has had it for a while I just thought it might be a good idea if the first course of treatment managed to knock it on the head.


dr del

well, i guess i don't have too many herp vets in my area. i might have to go back to the guy i already went to. just to look at him is going to cost $50 and then he said bloodwork will probably be needed. won't bloodwork take too long to look at? my snake doesn't look so great.

Hi,

Again, so not a vet :oops: , but I don't know why he would use bloodwork rather than a culture for an RI - unless he feels it's not the root cause. Perhaps he thinks it is crypto as previously mentioned and wants to see if there is any hints in the bloodwork that could help find an underlying cause.

Have you checked the arav and herpvet connection websites for alternates? If you can find someone semi-local you could even ask for a phone consult through your local vet - pricy but it does let you choose someone with experience with no restrictions of geography.

A culture will take some time but they normally start you on a course when they take the swab rather than waiting for the results but then change the treatment if what they gave you initially proves ineffective when checked on the culture.

I'm trying to think of a way to be tactful but you knew he was ill a month ago so the fact he got worse shouldn't surprise you and vet bills rarely go down if you let the animal get sicker. :(

Have a look round the forum to see what others have had success with as a treatment for RI's and ask the vet if you could have that.

I hope he pulls through ok for you.


dr del

:O Bugs in his stool....wow. I would definetly bring that up to the vet as well.

Again I have no experience in this area and quite frankly know pretty much nothing when it comes to this.

I applaud you on not just sending him back to the breeder...I could never do that. Keep trying and ya know...he might be the best little guy ever once he gets better!!

Friend brought him into the vet today and got me the invoice. He has a severe RI. He was thinking the snake could possibly have IBD. He put the snake on it's back and it couldn't get back up on it's own. Could this be from a combo of being sick with the RI and the genetic probs spider have? A culture was taken and I will know in 5 days if I need a stronger med. than what he gave me. Ceftazdime injections are what I will be giving him every 2 days. Really hoping he gets better soon.

My bp has been sick ever since day one of getting him at a reptile show. Once i got home and put him in his quarantined tub, he had a definitely not normal stool and it went downhill from there. The first vet trip in May, my snake had excess amounts of nematodes and and flagellates in his stool, along with some blood. The metronidazole seemed to get rid of all his problems a week after finishing the med and I finally got to see him eat for once, and every week after that up until a week ago when this all started to happen again...I really hope this vet puts an end to all this snakes problems.

IBD will kill a ball python in under a month. Since you've had the snake much longer than that, unless you introduced IBD to your collection in the past few weeks its very unlikely.

How are you keeping the snake? Is it still in the 30gallon aquarium you originally told us you were keeping him in? Incorrect temps/humidity (as often occurs in aquarium setups) can possibly lead to a respiratory infection.

If your vet thinks that it may be IBD then it seems that the vet probably isnt too experienced with herps and I'd recommend you find a legitimate reptile vet to help you treat your snake.

Best regards,
Your friend Mike

A severe RI, could also cause some kind of meningitis with IBD like symptoms. Ceftazdime is a unstable drug, make sure you know how to keep it or it would be useless.

No IBD should be present since I have not added any reptiles to my collection for at least 3 months now.

The spider bp was in an empty rack for the past few months after I ended up taking him out of the 30gal tank. Hot side of the tub was around 86 degrees and cooler side around 80 degrees. Humidity was around 60%. As of the day i saw signs of being sick again, I put him in a custom wooden elcosure with sliding plexiglass front. I did this so that my family at home could keep a close eye on him rather than pulling the tub out which they're afraid to do so while I'm out at work not knowing what's going on with my snake.

I wasn't at the vet appt, but apparently he seemed like he knew what he was doing, but maybe not if that's the case with the IBD. I'll see what happens with the meds he gave me for the snake. He's supposed to give me a stronger med if needed after he views the results of the culture.

I was told to keep the meds the vet gave me in the freezer and take them out an hour prior to injecting the snake.

hope he gets better. this is a reason i hate buying from a reptile show. i bought a bearded dragon at a show and after 700 in vet bills i lost her. the breeder said it wasnt her problem.:mad:

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Originally Posted by Ralphieeeee

No IBD should be present since I have not added any reptiles to my collection for at least 3 months now.

The spider bp was in an empty rack for the past few months after I ended up taking him out of the 30gal tank. Hot side of the tub was around 86 degrees and cooler side around 80 degrees. Humidity was around 60%. As of the day i saw signs of being sick again, I put him in a custom wooden elcosure with sliding plexiglass front. I did this so that my family at home could keep a close eye on him rather than pulling the tub out which they're afraid to do so while I'm out at work not knowing what's going on with my snake.

I wasn't at the vet appt, but apparently he seemed like he knew what he was doing, but maybe not if that's the case with the IBD. I'll see what happens with the meds he gave me for the snake. He's supposed to give me a stronger med if needed after he views the results of the culture.

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Honestly I would recommend keeping him in a tub. The less stress, the better and a large clear window for people to peer in is probably not conducive to a stress-free environment :colbert:

For the duration of treatment I'd kick the temps up from 86 to 90 on the warm side. Helps boost the snake's immune system.

Will do, now that work is over and I can check on him every so often.

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If your vet thinks that it may be IBD then it seems that the vet probably isnt too experienced with herps and I'd recommend you find a legitimate reptile vet to help you treat your snake.

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A lot of vets don't know about the spider BP neuro issues. It's not their fault -- no one taught them about all the BP morphs in vet school and that this one happens to have a neuro problem. You'd only learn that if you happened to be involved in BPs outside of vet career, or a client brings you one and you learn from that (as should happen in this case). It's a real problem, because the wobbling, corkscrewing, and loss of righting reflex (not flipping over when placed on their backs) are classic signs of a neurological disease, and neuro signs in a python raise major red IBD flags. Sounds like this is a pretty good vet to me, since he picked up the neuro signs in the face of a severe RI.

I am hoping to make a video some day documenting the spider BP issues to share with other herp vets. I gave a lecture to some vet students a couple months ago and brought a spider in to show them. The good students all mentioned IBD as a differential when the snake stayed on his back for 10 minutes.

To Ralphieeee, make sure to inform your vet that this morph has heritable neurologic problems, which are more likely to account for the loss of righting reflex than IBD.

My take....

The animal has a heavy parasite load, and the respiratory infection is secondary. Basically, bacteria that are commonly present have been allowed to multiply to an unsafe level because his immune system was already jeopardized.

This is what's commonly referred to as an opportunistic infection. Not a result of being exposed to the bacteria itself, but a result of the immune system not being able to fight off what would otherwise be a normal level of that bacteria.

I'm no vet, but I know what I would do.

1. "De-worm" the snake multiple times with Flagyl and Panacur...just to make sure parasites are a non-issue.

2. The drug you're using (fortaz is the common name) works much better for RI when it's used in conjunction with something like Baytril or Amakacin, so I would ask the vet about getting a bottle of Baytril if you can.
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Not to throw stones (we've all been suckered in by a seemingly good deal at a show), but this is a perfect example of why it's best to buy from a breeder you know. Whatever may have been saved on your spider by getting it at a show is hardly worth all the time and energy you've put into this....and that's not to mention that you have a snake that is trying to recover, rather than growing up to be a breeder. It took me a long time to get that, so don't think I'm grilling you...just pointing out that the truly good deals sometimes cost a few bucks more up front.

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Originally Posted by AnthonyCaponetto

2. The drug you're using (fortaz is the common name) works much better for RI when it's used in conjunction with something like Baytril or Amakacin, so I would ask the vet about getting a bottle of Baytril if you can.

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How well an antibiotic works depends entirely on the antimicrobial resistance pattern of the bug causing the infection. It is not good practice to throw more than one antibiotic at a bug without knowing its resistance pattern. Culture and sensitivity should always dictate treatment, and then the narrowest-spectrum possible antimicrobial should be used. Only one broad-spectrum antibiotic should be used before the C&S results are back.

Update from culture. Snake has Pseudomonas and Klebsiella. Was given Amikacin to treat the Pseudomonas. He seems a little better today, but who knows. Hopefully he'll pull through.

wow....I am sure with lots of care, love and the meds he will be better in no time. Good on you for helping to nurse him back.

i have given my snake amikacin shots for an RI and it worked good. i dont really know much about it tho. i bumped my hot side up to 93 to help her fight it off while on it but i also had to soak her cuz i guess that stuff dehydrates them pretty bad. good luck, i hope she gets better

If you pet was only dewormed once it is probrably a reinfestation, common deworming medications need to be given at least 2 or 3 times in 3 week intervals to make sure there is no reinfestation. If you live in the Dallas area you can go to North Tollway Pet Hospital and see Dr. Maxwell he is very good and this is where I work.