Can a baby ball accidently drown?

Hi everyone,

I am like most folks in the winter, keeping a close watch on the humidity in my glass BP cages. I have learned from my new adult BP (Nico) that she likes to soak in the water dish. I originally didn’t have a dish big enough so I went to the store and bought her a punch bowl to soak in. She barely fits in it, but she loves it! :D– This also had another desired side affect, it raised the humidity to a constant 67% from 37%.

I’d like to put a large bowl like this in my baby ball’s (Muffin) cage to raise her humidity, but I’m terrified that she might accidentally fall in and drown. She never soaks in her water dishes. I have 2 humid hides in her cage along with 2 water dishes, misting daily, and it’s still not enough – Poor Muffin. So when Nico came along, and I added the punchbowl of water, it seemed to make a substantial and sustainable difference in humidity.

Is it possible that I could be putting my baby ball Muffin at risk for drowning by adding such an enormous body of water in her cage?

I’d love to hear all replies and suggestions. This humidity issue is my number one source of frustration and concern for my precious animals.

Thanks for reading my post, sorry if this should go under 'husbandry'

Chocolate Muffin & Nico Wilson’s Mamma

Accidents can always happen. Have you tried considering using tubs?

As long as the sides are not too high, you should be fine. The snake needs to be able to get it's head out of the bowl while touching the bottom with enough of its body to push itself out.

Stay away from bowls that are sloped. Stick with vertical sides.

Hi CT,
I don;t have a way to heat the tubs. I need to have UTH and Overhead heat lamps, and that wont work with a tub. I bought tubs to use for Nico but none of the pet stores in my area sell heat tape. I tried a bunch. I could order it online, but they says it requires a rheostat? (sp) Or some other device or which I'm not really familiar. I asked the vet if I could use an UTH wrapped in a towel, on the tubs, and he said no. He said the UTH needs to have ventilation and to put her in the glass cage for now.

I love my pretty cages, but Nico is going to need something considerably bigger...sorry, I digress...

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Originally Posted by wilomn

As long as the sides are not too high, you should be fine. The snake needs to be able to get it's head out of the bowl while touching the bottom with enough of its body to push itself out.

Stay away from bowls that are sloped. Stick with vertical sides.

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Oh really? Well then this punch bowl won't work. It has sloped sides and she would be like a shoe in pool. There is no chance that this would be safe, sounds like?

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Oh really? Well then this punch bowl won't work. It has sloped sides and she would be like a shoe in pool. There is no chance that this would be safe, sounds like?

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For a big snake, it's no problem. The little guys though can't get any purchase on the bottom and if they can't pull themselves out by their chins, they get tired and drown.

I lost a some baby rubber boas this way long ago. It was a really cool bowl, but had sloped sides and I came in one morning and found 2 dead babies in the bowl. They had drowned. I've only used vertical sided since then for the babies.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. I will not be doing the big bowl idea. I'm sure glad I asked...thought I was brilliant once I discovered it.


Thanks!

I am a little concerned that your other ball python likes to soak so much. Ball pythons aren't normally the soaking type and excessive soaking is usually an indication of a bigger problem.

What kind of hides are you using for your snakes?

Also, you need to use a reptile thermostat with a UTH. Even with a glass tank, burns can still happen. This could be the reason why your snake chooses to sit in the water bowl instead of in the hide.

There are other ways to bring up humidity. Insulating the sides and back on the tank with foam core board (on the outside of the tank) can help hold in temps better and maybe eliminate the need for a CHE or lamp, which in turn will raise the humidity.

What substrate are you using? There are certain substrates that can help raise humidity.

Covering 3/4ths of the screen lid with aluminum tape will also help to trap humidity that would otherwise be lost.

A big bowl is not always the answer to keeping humidity up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Hi CT,
I don;t have a way to heat the tubs. I need to have UTH and Overhead heat lamps, and that wont work with a tub. I bought tubs to use for Nico but none of the pet stores in my area sell heat tape. I tried a bunch. I could order it online, but they says it requires a rheostat? (sp) Or some other device or which I'm not really familiar. I asked the vet if I could use an UTH wrapped in a towel, on the tubs, and he said no. He said the UTH needs to have ventilation and to put her in the glass cage for now.

I love my pretty cages, but Nico is going to need something considerably bigger...sorry, I digress...

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http://www.bigappleherp.com/Flex-Watt-Heat-Tape

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I am a little concerned that your other ball python likes to soak so much. Ball pythons aren't normally the soaking type and excessive soaking is usually an indication of a bigger problem.

What kind of hides are you using for your snakes?

Also, you need to use a reptile thermostat with a UTH. Even with a glass tank, burns can still happen. This could be the reason why your snake chooses to sit in the water bowl instead of in the hide.

There are other ways to bring up humidity. Insulating the sides and back on the tank with foam core board (on the outside of the tank) can help hold in temps better and maybe eliminate the need for a CHE or lamp, which in turn will raise the humidity.

What substrate are you using? There are certain substrates that can help raise humidity.

Covering 3/4ths of the screen lid with aluminum tape will also help to trap humidity that would otherwise be lost.

A big bowl is not always the answer to keeping humidity up.

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Hi Kaorte,
Thanks for your questions:

Nico has only been with me since Tuesday. That’s when she shipped in and I got her from a very well known ball python breeder. She only soaked for about an hour yesterday, and I agree, it’s a behavior I’m familiar with but until this point, I had never seen. I looked on RC Reptiles ‘Ron’s Blog’ and it said BP soak for lots of reasons, but one could be because their cage is too hot. When I checked Nico’s temps, her hide was at 110 degrees – way too hot. I brought the temps down, and got the ambient temp down to 82, and she was fine and hasn’t soaked since. She has absolutely no health/parasitic issues and she looked amazing when she arrived on Tuesday (still does).

Nico’s hide box is a standard breeder hide box, XL, from LLReptile. She’s 4530 grams, and only has room for 1 hide. The baby ball Muffin has 2 hides (1/2 log & Rock) and 2 humid hide boxes.

I have 2 digital thermostats and Humidity meters in both cages. I know what their numbers are every second of the day, which is why I knew Nico was too hot, and that Muffins humidity was too low.

The substrate issue is a great issue you bring up. I spend a great deal of time analyzing this issue before I got Muffin. I settled on reptile carpet for both animals, but have discovered that I like paper towels much more. I have mentally debated getting Aspen/Cypress Mulch to help with the humidity for Muffin, but found that paper towels absorb urine well, and clean up much easier. I don’t know. I keep their cages pristine, and I feel like I would be obsessing over their cages even more with mulch in them…I dunno

I do have ¾ the top covered with foil, but I read recently on this forum to try a wet blanket – I really liked this idea, so I cleaned out Muffin’s cage about ½ hour ago, and I am trying the wet towel routine…let me quick go check her numbers: 48% humidity, 97 degrees – sheesh.

Sorry if I missed it, but how are you controlling your temps? If you don't have a thermostat, you should get one. I know you said you have two "thermostats", but I think you meant thermometers. Nico is one big mama by the way.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

http://www.bigappleherp.com/Flex-Watt-Heat-Tape

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Ok, I just watched the video - Thank you very much. I really had no understanding of how it worked and I guess I felt intimidated by it.

thanks!

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Originally Posted by addsdad

Sorry if I missed it, but how are you controlling your temps? If you don't have a thermostat, you should get one. I know you said you have two "thermostats", but I think you meant thermometers. Nico is one big mama by the way.

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Hi, thanks for asking : )
I am controlling my temps with 2 digital thermometers and humidity gauges. They are very accurate, which is why I am seeking help.

Thanks - Nico is sooo much fun too!

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Hi, thanks for asking : )
I am controlling my temps with 2 digital thermometers and humidity gauges. They are very accurate, which is why I am seeking help.

Thanks - Nico is sooo much fun too!

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Not to seem nitpicky, but your thermometers would just be measuring the temps not controlling them. A thermostat would keep your temps at the desired level. I was meaning to ask how you are controlling your temps. When you say you brought the temperature down, how did you do it?

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Originally Posted by addsdad

Not to seem nitpicky, but your thermometers would just be measuring the temps not controlling them. A thermostat would keep your temps at the desired level. I was meaning to ask how you are controlling your temps. When you say you brought the temperature down, how did you do it?

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Oh no problem - and your right, I wasn't clear. I don't have a device to control temps. I just shut the over head lamp off foe a while and it went back down to a comfortable temperature...not good?

Do you have an UTH? You should have a thermostat or at least a lamp dimmer hooked up to that to control the UTH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Hi CT,
I don;t have a way to heat the tubs. I need to have UTH and Overhead heat lamps, and that wont work with a tub. I bought tubs to use for Nico but none of the pet stores in my area sell heat tape. I tried a bunch. I could order it online, but they says it requires a rheostat? (sp) Or some other device or which I'm not really familiar. I asked the vet if I could use an UTH wrapped in a towel, on the tubs, and he said no. He said the UTH needs to have ventilation and to put her in the glass cage for now.

I love my pretty cages, but Nico is going to need something considerably bigger...sorry, I digress...

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I use UTH's on two tubs that I have. I have foil tape that I used to tape the UTH to the bottom on the tub. It works great!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

Oh no problem - and your right, I wasn't clear. I don't have a device to control temps. I just shut the over head lamp off foe a while and it went back down to a comfortable temperature...not good?

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So by adjusting the temps that way you are basically a human thermostat. You should have your heating elements connected to a thermostat to eliminate the potential for not being able to be there constantly to adjust the temps yourself. Set your thermostat to the desired temperature and let it do the work. :)

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Originally Posted by Elise.m

I use UTH's on two tubs that I have. I have foil tape that I used to tape the UTH to the bottom on the tub. It works great!

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Thats good to know.Yes, I do use a UTH, which is why I think it got so hot. I guess because I was told by my vet not to use the UTH with a plastic tub, I never thought about duct tape/electrical tape. Its too late now, I adhered the UTH to the glass tank. Now I may turn my attention to flex tape or heat tape. I should be able to use that on her large tub.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by addsdad

So by adjusting the temps that way you are basically a human thermostat. You should have your heating elements connected to a thermostat to eliminate the potential for not being able to be there constantly to adjust the temps yourself. Set your thermostat to the desired temperature and let it do the work. :)

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So do I go to a pet store or buy it online? Also, can one thermostat control both cages?

Thanks for the insight, I'm kinda clueless here.

: )

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Originally Posted by Elise.m

Do you have an UTH? You should have a thermostat or at least a lamp dimmer hooked up to that to control the UTH.

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I sure wish I had this stuff -thank you for telling me. Geeze there's still so much to learn : )

test for signature corrections

When it comes to Ball Pythons, I don't think the learning will ever end! Lol, at least sometimes that's what it feels like. It's good to keep an open mind.

I ordered my Thermostats over the internet from www.bigalsonline.com I just got the Repti Temp 500R. It can control two UTHs, I just haven't figured out how to properly do it.

Also, You don't have to remove the sticky tape from the UTH to use it. I have two right now that still have the paper on it, and they're working fine. No fires, temps are fine. I stuck my first one on my glass tank, I was so mad when I found out I didn't have to!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elise.m

When it comes to Ball Pythons, I don't think the learning will ever end! Lol, at least sometimes that's what it feels like. It's good to keep an open mind.

I ordered my Thermostats over the internet from www.bigalsonline.com I just got the Repti Temp 500R. It can control two UTHs, I just haven't figured out how to properly do it.

Also, You don't have to remove the sticky tape from the UTH to use it. I have two right now that still have the paper on it, and they're working fine. No fires, temps are fine. I stuck my first one on my glass tank, I was so mad when I found out I didn't have to!

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Wow really? I m going to take a look at that website because I really want my snakes to be happy and healthy. I guess I should have checked with this site before talking to the vet. I have already attached the UTH to the glass, but I am really in need of a thermostat - I hope it can also regulate the overhead heat lamps.

You may want to consider running a dimmer switch inline incase there is any issue with the Repti Temp. If it breaks in the 'on' position it would not be a good result.

I use a dimmer switch even with a herpstat because I trust nothing. Better safe than sorry, especially for the $10-$20 a dimmer switch would cost.

you can use 1 thermostat to control multiple heating sourses as long as they are the SAME wattage and size (example: it is a fire hazard to use a 10gal size UTH and a piece of 1foot 4'' flexwatt on the same thermostat). IF you have the exact same type of heating sources on both (all) enclosures that are the same size its fine.

I recommend the Jonhson Controls or Ranco thermostats, you can get them from Rich at ReptileBaics.com (Rich has the BEST customer service in the industry, you can trust him completely). The Johnson and Ranco are about 80 prewired and ready to use out of the box. It may seem expensive..but honestly, its THE most important part in your husbandry system (yes, even more important than your snakes, because without a temp control device you could have an accident happen where your beloved pets are harmed or even killed). With a thermostat, you can set it and forget it. And the johnson/rancos are a medium price thermostat that is reliable and safe.

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Originally Posted by flynn

You may want to consider running a dimmer switch inline incase there is any issue with the Repti Temp. If it breaks in the 'on' position it would not be a good result.

I use a dimmer switch even with a herpstat because I trust nothing. Better safe than sorry, especially for the $10-$20 a dimmer switch would cost.

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Hi Flynn, I am so glad to be having this discussion, because I know absolutely nothing about how these electronic devices work - In fact, I want to dovetail my question into a question for you and cinderbird....

See below : )

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

you can use 1 thermostat to control multiple heating sourses as long as they are the SAME wattage and size (example: it is a fire hazard to use a 10gal size UTH and a piece of 1foot 4'' flexwatt on the same thermostat). IF you have the exact same type of heating sources on both (all) enclosures that are the same size its fine.

I recommend the Jonhson Controls or Ranco thermostats, you can get them from Rich at ReptileBaics.com (Rich has the BEST customer service in the industry, you can trust him completely). The Johnson and Ranco are about 80 prewired and ready to use out of the box. It may seem expensive..but honestly, its THE most important part in your husbandry system (yes, even more important than your snakes, because without a temp control device you could have an accident happen where your beloved pets are harmed or even killed). With a thermostat, you can set it and forget it. And the johnson/rancos are a medium price thermostat that is reliable and safe.

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Hi Cinderbird,

Thanks so much for the info. I am very interested in getting more information about this, and I will definitely call them, and order. What I'm not clear on is the difference between a 'dimmer' a 'rheostat' and this device. Maybe I can ask 'Rich' but I feel like if I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll just end up being more confused. I have two UTH for the same size tank. I need a bigger tank for ‘Fatty’ but don’t have any heat source for it, so she can’t go in it yet. I also have 4 over head lamps at different wattage levels that need to be turned on and off at different times. What can I purchased to bring all of these things in concert? Will the Ronco/Johnson products do that?

Sorry for my ignorance, I just really want to get this right. I appreciate everyone’s help.

I'll add that a rheostat is the same as a dimmer switch. Essentially like the tap on a sink to allow more or less power to get to the heating device. The concern with using these is that you may set the rheo to provide enough power for your heatmat to be 95f while your room temp is 75f. However when the room temp increases, so does the temp of the heatmat. A thermostat will compensate for the ambient temperature.

As far as your lights go, you can pickup a simple lamp timer for 10-20 bucks. If you need to run a few lamps at different times then you may want to consider a power-bar that has a digital timer built in. These can be found at most pet stores these days for around $30-$50.

I'm not experienced with the Johnson Controls or Ranco thermostats so I will let someone else comment on them.

Are you measuring temps with a digital thermometer with a probe? I feel like you have WAY to many heating sources for your tanks.

You shouldn't need more than one UTH and maybe one lamp per enclosure. More then that is just over kill, unless you live in an igloo or something.

A rheostat and a dimmer are basically the same thing, they basically just "dim" the heat similarly to how you would dim lights. A thermostat regulates the temperature based on the reading it gets from a probe thermometer. You attach the probe to the heat source and set the thermostat to click on when it falls below a certain temperature and click off when it reaches the ideal temperature. A proportional thermostat is one that doesn't click on and off, it just limits the power going to the heat source to lower the temperature. Kind of like a dimmer with a thermometer probe to measure the temp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Are you measuring temps with a digital thermometer with a probe? I feel like you have WAY to many heating sources for your tanks.

You shouldn't need more than one UTH and maybe one lamp per enclosure. More then that is just over kill, unless you live in an igloo or something.

A rheostat and a dimmer are basically the same thing, they basically just "dim" the heat similarly to how you would dim lights. A thermostat regulates the temperature based on the reading it gets from a probe thermometer. You attach the probe to the heat source and set the thermostat to click on when it falls below a certain temperature and click off when it reaches the ideal temperature. A proportional thermostat is one that doesn't click on and off, it just limits the power going to the heat source to lower the temperature. Kind of like a dimmer with a thermometer probe to measure the temp.

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Hi Kaorte,

I have 1 UTH for each tank, and only one lamp is on at all times, they are just for day/night. I appreciate you and others explaining this stuff to me in terms that my little brain can understand. I have used ReptileBasics before and got great service, so I am going to call them tomorrow and find out what I need to get all of these gauges under control. Oh, and to answer your first question, each tank has 1digital thermometer/Humidity gauge, and a second digital temp probe for the ambient temp.

Make sense?
I'm going to keep at this until I get all of this stuff right, I love my little slithering bundles, and I want things to be just right!

Alife 1000 watt electronic thermostat with probe
size: Up to 1000 watts
This state of the art controller will maintain any preselected temperature between 60 and 105 degrees, and comes with a probe to measure the temperature in your terrarium and adjust according to what you set it at.
$26.95 each
This is at lllreptile.com
or there is this one.
Zoo Med 500R thermostat with probe

Simply set the dial to the desired temperature, and the thermostat will do the rest. Ideal for use with heat pads and ceramic heat emitters.
$32.95 each

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Originally Posted by AmandaRisher

Alife 1000 watt electronic thermostat with probe
size: Up to 1000 watts
This state of the art controller will maintain any preselected temperature between 60 and 105 degrees, and comes with a probe to measure the temperature in your terrarium and adjust according to what you set it at.
$26.95 each
This is at lllreptile.com
or there is this one.
Zoo Med 500R thermostat with probe

Simply set the dial to the desired temperature, and the thermostat will do the rest. Ideal for use with heat pads and ceramic heat emitters.
$32.95 each

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Hey Amanda,
Thank you very much!!! Thats right in my price range, and I can at least now understand what I need the device to do : ) thank you very much, I will be looking into this tomorrow also. I desperately need something...

Zoo Med Repti Fogger Terrarium Humidifier

The Zoo Med Repti Fogger is an ultrasonic visible mist humidifier. It is compact, and designed specifically for reptile terrariums!
$49.99 each
This may help out with ur humidity problems. Also on LLL

Your welcome :) I need one as well lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmandaRisher

Zoo Med Repti Fogger Terrarium Humidifier

The Zoo Med Repti Fogger is an ultrasonic visible mist humidifier. It is compact, and designed specifically for reptile terrariums!
$49.99 each
This may help out with ur humidity problems. Also on LLL

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I have seen those foggers, but on Amazon.com, and I considered buying one but all of the reviews were horrible - most said the thing only works for 6 months then dies. I'm a big believer in product reviews, but, I did see on YouTube where a snake owner used a real humidifier and tubed it into the snake enclosure. I thought it was an interesting option:)

Right now, I have a punch bowl of water in Fat Girl Nikki’s cage, and that has sustained the humidity over 65%. Do you there is any harm in high humidity?