Be loyal to your snake...not your Vet

Your snake is 100% dependent on you for it's well being. You need to do the right thing for it.

Let BG ask you all a question. Would you take your kid that has heart problems to a foot doctor? Just because someone is a Vet, it doesn't mean they know ANYTHING ABOUT REPTILES. In most cases(and BG really means "most") Vets know less than you about your reptile. Although that may seem hard to believe, after hearing hundreds of stories over the years, Big Gunns is convinced it's true. A reptile requires totally different care than a mammal.

Big Gunns has been telling people over and over to go to a "Qualified Vet" and it occurred to BG. How can someone easily tell with a phone call.

Big Gunns could come up with a hundred funny things to say, and maybe later in the thread he will, but for now we'll give good advice.

Ask the doctor if they have ever treated a reptile with Fortaz(Ceftazidime). If they haven't, or never heard of it, they're not qualified.

Ask the doctor how big your Ball Python, and your Burmese Python will get. Even if you don't have them...ask anyway. A qualified Vet will know.

Ask a trick question. Can you feed your Ball Python Rabbits when it becomes an adult.

Ask the doctor why your snake has a forked tongue.

Ask the doctor if your Ball Python can kill your kid or eat your dog.

Ask the doctor if it's ok to cool your Python to hibernate it like in the wild. Trick question of course.

Big Gunns has got to run, but he's sure everyone can think of some good questions to ask. Simply asking if they have ever treated a reptile is not good enough. Most Vets aren't dumb....if someone brings money to their practice(a snake) they're gonna do their best.

Most people have a Vet for their dog/cat, so it's easy to just go to that Vet. It's the worst thing you can do for your reptile.

FIND A QUALIFIED VETERINARIAN!!!!:taz: Big Gunns can't emphasize this enough.

Excellent post, BG! When I first got into ball pythons, I started researching for exotics vets, and I made inquiries to my local herp society as well as to the Atlanta Zoo Reptile department asking for their recommendations on a vet in my area. All of my replies led me back to one particular veterinarian who only treats exotics. Knock wood, I've not had to use him, but you can bet he's programmed into my phone. I know that Trey (mxrider42) has used him and is very impressed with him and the care his animals have received.

BG made a very good thread, but forgot to add something.

Before you EVER purchase a reptile, always make sure there is a qualified vet in your area, but if you just purchase a reptile without doing so, and it gets sick, you may find yourself driving a few hours just to get to a qualified vet.

So Mr. BG why does your snake have a forked tongue? :P

Good point and post. At least find out what your vets capabilities are. In my area, most of the vets won't even see reptiles, but two of them will, as long as the animal isn't over 7 ft, and they are honest up front about what they can do. Physicals, fecal exams, RI's, and minor scale rot. Anything bigger or more in-depth then they recommend the exotic animal hospital about 2 hours away...


Rob

But I took a combined bird and ferret course for extra credit hours! I'm a qualified exotics vet now!

Also, if you can't find a qualified vet, the next best thing you can do is go to a knowledgable breeder. If your snake has mites, suspected inclusions, or an RI, go right on up and plop it down on their tables and ask for help and they should be sure to give you some great advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danounet

So Mr. BG why does your snake have a forked tongue? :P

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Snakes have a forked tongue so they can lick both their eyes at the same time. Geckos can only lick one. Its Evolution. :banana:

Umm,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Ask a trick question. Can you feed your Ball Python Rabbits when it becomes an adult.

---

Are you sure that's a trick question? :bolt:


dr del

The treating with Ceftazidime is a GREAT question.

awesome post!! I am sure you have heard horror stories!!

I would also like to add that you can also check with your local breeder (if you have one) to see who they use. Good thing to do...check the vet out BEFORE you need them. Most vets will give you a free consultation to "talk" to them prior to comitting to a "relationship" so to speak.

Excellent post BG, ironically when I first got into snakes, my vet gave me a questionaire on my ball python much like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Umm,
Are you sure that's a trick question? :bolt:
dr del

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:omfg: <- actually made that face when I saw that pic. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Umm,



Are you sure that's a trick question? :bolt:


dr del

---

:O:O:O
Was my face exactly as well!

I agree BG. A quality herp vet is important!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

BG made a very good thread, but forgot to add something.

Before you EVER purchase a reptile, always make sure there is a qualified vet in your area, but if you just purchase a reptile without doing so, and it gets sick, you may find yourself driving a few hours just to get to a qualified vet.

---

This isn't a good enough reason not to buy one kiddo.:colbert: With good husbandry you may never see one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danounet

So Mr. BG why does your snake have a forked tongue? :P

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When Big Gunns created all living creatures, he gave snakes forked tongues so they had a better chance of finding their creator.:D

Big Gunns has got to say. He's glad everyone liked his post.:gj: Make sure you all take Big Gunns advice on this though. Big Gunns really hates talking to walls....he prefers his millions of mirrors.:D

I have a very good vet, but there was a case when my friend took his ball python to a vet he trusted and wouldn't let me tell him other wise.

In the end he ended up paying around $100 for the vet to say he wasn't sure, pull out a book and look up the symptoms, and told him the closest one that matched. Which happened to be IBD. The snake in question did die but after he got the body tested it turned out not to be that, and all of its siblings almost two years later are doing great ( and have been taken to proper vets to be treated for Parasites).

I told him that vet was a slower payed for Google.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

BG made a very good thread, but forgot to add something.

Before you EVER purchase a reptile, always make sure there is a qualified vet in your area, but if you just purchase a reptile without doing so, and it gets sick, you may find yourself driving a few hours just to get to a qualified vet.

---

Unfortunately Tiffany, if people took this advice then most people would never get a snake, then there would be less incentive for vets to learn anything about them, then fewer people would be able to get a snake, then there would be even less incentive for vets to learn anything about them, etc etc etc... See where I'm going with this?

Remember Veterinarians are a BUSINESS. They may have gotten into the field because they want to help animals but if it can't help them pay the bills it becomes a lower priority. Few professionals will expend time and effort learning about something that may only be helpful to them once every couple of years.

Something learned. Good post:gj:

"They may have gotten into the field because they want to help animals but if it can't help them pay the bills it becomes a lower priority."

On the contrary, exotics medicine is a much higher paying field (at least that is the trend in the Houston area). Unfortunately, therein lies part of the problem...a client will often "take what they can get" from their small animal veterinarian to avoid paying more at an exotics practice. Every vet that I have worked for that doesn't specialize in exotics has been up front with a client if posed with the question of whether or not he or she "sees reptiles"...if the client insists, the vet would do his or her best, but would ALWAYS treat with the understanding that exotics were not their specialty. Perhaps there are other unscrupulous vets out there (I wouldn't be surprised), but please keep in mind, if these folks were in it for the money, they would have become human doctors. I can assure ya'll that if I added up all of the services that we've given away for free simply because "somebody doesn't have the money," or literally just leaves without paying, the sum would amount to more than I make in a year. Just my 2 cents (and a different perspective)!

For people who don't have qualified herp vets in their area, keep in mind that non-qualified vets can be open-minded and willing to work with you. I have no problems being schooled by clients when it's a species I've never seen before. I am trained in the nitty gritty of physiology, pharmacology, microbiology, surgery, etc, but not the details of husbandry, natural history, and diet of all the thousands of herp species out there. Combining my skills (and prescription pad) with an owner's knowledge of a certain species can make a great team. I also have no problem calling other vets who are more experienced with me in certain species to consult with. Better yet is when the client brings me the phone number. That said, I also know my limits, and when I'm out of my league I will help the owner find a better-qualified vet if possible.

Regarding fees, I agree that vets charge more for exotics -- as they should. It's a specialty that takes more training and investment of time, energy, and money for special equipment. Also, exotics appointments almost always take longer than dog & cat appointments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

This isn't a good enough reason not to buy one kiddo.:colbert: With good husbandry you may never see one.

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I've heard about random RIs that pop up:O

Great post Neil, fortunately I've been close to some of the best Herp vets on the east coast!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoBoilers

On the contrary, exotics medicine is a much higher paying field (at least that is the trend in the Houston area). Unfortunately, therein lies part of the problem...a client will often "take what they can get" from their small animal veterinarian to avoid paying more at an exotics practice.

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It is the exact opposite around here. Cat and dog vets are where the big bucks are. Exotics vets are more of a fringe group, and very difficult to find.

Another thing: Just because a vet CLAIMS to be an exotics vet, doesn't mean they actually are! I have personal experience with an "exotics vet" who didn't know jack about snakes... Don't just read the sign outside the vet's office. Do what BG said, call and ASK QUESTIONS!!

Well said, CritterVet (fixer)! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I've heard about random RIs that pop up:O

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Truly "random" RI's usually pop up when an infected snake from another breeder is introduced to the collection, and whether improper quarantine was practice or it just got missed, it spreads on.

While you can usually avoid vet visits with proper husbandry, the truth is if you have a large collection you will once in a while run into problems like infected hemipenes, rat bites that get infected, etc that you simply cannot predict and can't always treat yourself. SO it's always good to at least know of a vet who can help you in the rare event you need it. (even if you are a ball python god who has perfect husbandry and cleans all his cages every other day) ;)

Very well stated BG. I've gone to several vets over the years who've claimed to know reptiles and found they really didn't know anymore than I did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

For people who don't have qualified herp vets in their area, keep in mind that non-qualified vets can be open-minded and willing to work with you. I have no problems being schooled by clients when it's a species I've never seen before. I am trained in the nitty gritty of physiology, pharmacology, microbiology, surgery, etc, but not the details of husbandry, natural history, and diet of all the thousands of herp species out there. Combining my skills (and prescription pad) with an owner's knowledge of a certain species can make a great team. I also have no problem calling other vets who are more experienced with me in certain species to consult with. Better yet is when the client brings me the phone number. That said, I also know my limits, and when I'm out of my league I will help the owner find a better-qualified vet if possible.

Regarding fees, I agree that vets charge more for exotics -- as they should. It's a specialty that takes more training and investment of time, energy, and money for special equipment. Also, exotics appointments almost always take longer than dog & cat appointments.

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Of course they're "willing to work with you". They're basically getting paid to go to school. BG did have Vet years ago that did just that though. She "worked" with BG. Since BG knew other "qualified Vets" and large breeders in other states, BG knew what was "cutting edge". Not many Vets used "Fortaz" years ago. BG heard about it from Pete Kahl and his Vet. She called the Vets and got advice and could prescribe it to BG. She would do it for next to nothing since BG was basically "taking her to school". Fortaz also works great when boas get an RI during breeding season. Someone always will..... they are not as strong as Balls.:taz:

BG is gonna give you some good advice CV. Scott Stahl in Virginia is a great knowledgeable Vet. If you ever have a question with something give him a call and BG is sure he'll help you out. If you tell him you met Big Gunns on line(sounds kinda gay:D) he'll be able to tell you how great The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind really is. One problem though. Only forum losers like Big Gunns and the rest of us know who he is. Scott probably doesn't know Big Gunns as Big Gunns.:rofl::rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike@OutbackReptiles

Truly "random" RI's usually pop up when an infected snake from another breeder is introduced to the collection, and whether improper quarantine was practice or it just got missed, it spreads on.

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Thats just ignorant, RI's aren't contagious. Dont believe me, ask Dr. Scott Stahl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

Good point and post. At least find out what your vets capabilities are. In my area, most of the vets won't even see reptiles, but two of them will, as long as the animal isn't over 7 ft, and they are honest up front about what they can do. Physicals, fecal exams, RI's, and minor scale rot. Anything bigger or more in-depth then they recommend the exotic animal hospital about 2 hours away...


Rob

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ROFL!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

That has to be THE funniest avatar! Oh man...:banana:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

Thats just ignorant, RI's aren't contagious. Dont believe me, ask Dr. Scott Stahl.

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Go ahead and throw your mucus-bubbling males in with all your females then and see what happens :gj:

This thread is soo true. I had a reccomended vet kill a nice morph by severly overmedicating it. Today it would be obvious to me but back then I didnt know as much. He was cocky and bragging about all his experience but obviously had no idea what he was doing and gave my snake 5X the recommended dosages because he wanted to stamp out the very minor RI before it got worse!

I have talked to Dr. Stahl on different occasions ( he has taught me alot!) and one very helpful thing he told me is that although he cant prescibe medication over the phone, he can do conference calls/phone appointments with you local vet to help them treat your animal and make sure they the best diagnosis. This way you and your vet get educated dy Dr. Stahl and your animal gets the best treatment even if you dont live close to a good herp vet. Yes you pay more(both doctors) but you and your vet get knowledge and experience from one of the best that you have forever. I have talked to my current local vet and he was more than willing to do conference calls with Dr. Stahl if the need arose.

BG speaks the truth!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Of course they're "willing to work with you". They're basically getting paid to go to school. BG did have Vet years ago that did just that though. She "worked" with BG. Since BG knew other "qualified Vets" and large breeders in other states, BG knew what was "cutting edge". Not many Vets used "Fortaz" years ago. BG heard about it from Pete Kahl and his Vet. She called the Vets and got advice and could prescribe it to BG. She would do it for next to nothing since BG was basically "taking her to school". Fortaz also works great when boas get an RI during breeding season. Someone always will..... they are not as strong as Balls.:taz:

BG is gonna give you some good advice CV. Scott Stahl in Virginia is a great knowledgeable Vet. If you ever have a question with something give him a call and BG is sure he'll help you out. If you tell him you met Big Gunns on line(sounds kinda gay:D) he'll be able to tell you how great The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind really is. One problem though. Only forum losers like Big Gunns and the rest of us know who he is. Scott probably doesn't know Big Gunns as Big Gunns.:rofl::rofl:

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Charging professional fees for a species I'm not familiar with varies with what the animal needs. If it's just a routine health check or minor infection, that's one thing, but if the animal needs an abscess drained, a biopsy, sedation for a radiograph, etc, I'm not dropping fees. Even if I've never seen the species before and don't know much about it, I'm still charging for specialized professional services. An exception would be a surgery that I haven't done before, or have very limited experience with. In that case I'll probably charge a lower rate.

Just wanted to speak to the RI issue....I am convinced that "bacterial respiratory infections" are over-diagnosed in reptiles. There are a lot of viruses out there that attack the respiratory system and the mucosa of the upper GI tract (esophagus, oral cavity) that cause similar signs as RIs. However, it is extremely rare that the client is willing to spend $125 to have a sample sent to UF for viral testing, so it is never accurately diagnosed. These viruses are contagious.

Also, even though bacterial respiratory infections are almost always due to normal commensal bacteria over-growing in a compromised snake, they still can be contagious. Animals (including humans) are always in balance with their environment and the microbes in it. If an animal is challenged with a high enough load of bacteria, it is likely to get sick. Snakes with RIs are carrying and shedding more bacteria into the environment than normal, and in this way can be contagious to other snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Just wanted to speak to the RI issue....I am convinced that "bacterial respiratory infections" are over-diagnosed in reptiles. There are a lot of viruses out there that attack the respiratory system and the mucosa of the upper GI tract (esophagus, oral cavity) that cause similar signs as RIs. However, it is extremely rare that the client is willing to spend $125 to have a sample sent to UF for viral testing, so it is never accurately diagnosed. These viruses are contagious.

Also, even though bacterial respiratory infections are almost always due to normal commensal bacteria over-growing in a compromised snake, they still can be contagious. Animals (including humans) are always in balance with their environment and the microbes in it. If an animal is challenged with a high enough load of bacteria, it is likely to get sick. Snakes with RIs are carrying and shedding more bacteria into the environment than normal, and in this way can be contagious to other snakes.

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BG agrees with CV. If your snake is sick, don't put it with another one.

Big Gunns is gonna talk to Scott Stahl to see if he did in fact say that they're not contagious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Your snake is 100% dependent on you for it's well being. You need to do the right thing for it.

Let BG ask you all a question. Would you take your kid that has heart problems to a foot doctor? Just because someone is a Vet, it doesn't mean they know ANYTHING ABOUT REPTILES. In most cases(and BG really means "most") Vets know less than you about your reptile.

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Great Post! I found out the hard way when my boa got a new cage and irritated her nose when she checked out her new surroundings. I underestimated how many lamps I would need and one evening the temp dropped pretty low while she was soaking. I was paranoid when she didn't want to eat that her raw nose had turned into stomatitis or an RI, so I took her to the only vet that saw exotics in my area (Thinking I was doing the right thing). He told me that he had some other boa patients that go for routine care (Do people really do that? Ok, but have you ever seen a snake with a problem?) He literally took one look at my snake and told me that she was a very sick snake. I have had her for 10 years and I know her very well... she was about to shed, so she looked a little dull, but her eyes weren't opaque yet. I tried to tell him that, but he still insisted that she was very sick and dehydrated. He then went so far to tell me that she may be septic. He had not run any tests or a CBC so I asked how he knew this and why her behavior had not changed (other than missing a meal, probably because of her sore nose) if she was so sick. He pointed out some discolorations as his reasoning (that were normal for my snake prior to shed). He did examine inside her mouth and it was fine. This was right before a weekend and he recommended spending over $1,000 to send her to Texas A&M University for 24 hour care over the weekend. Everything but her nose was normal so I knew she was not that sick, but I did question myself. I asked what else I could do. He sent me home with Baytril injections and told me to come back after the weekend. I put her back in her old cage since I knew how to keep the temp and humidity perfect in it. I gave her the injections and then went back to the vet on monday. She was even closer to shedding time so he thought she had gotten worse. Her nose looked better and since that was my original reason for going, I disagreed. He went on and on about how sick she was and how she was septic. I have a great working relationship with my equine vet and I know a bit about infections and septicemia and that you can't state "facts" without any testing. He suggested she stay so he could give her fluids and supportive care. He had the nerve to tell me I should start thinking about euthanazia. Again, I asked what else I could do. Since he was so sure that she was septic, I told him to do a complete blood workup. He said it had to be sent to the lab so the results could take a few days. He actually knew about Fortaz and gave me that to give her. She shed and deficated a few days later. It was all perfectly normal. If she was so dehydrated, how did she have a perfect, complete shed? I called to inquire about the lab results. The receptionist said that everything was normal. I said, "So she isn't septic?" She said that she must not be because there was nothing written on it. I told her that she had deficated and shed fine, so I was asked to bring her back in for another exam. To me, she looked perfectly normal. Her nose was fine, everything seemed fine to me. I took the defication and shed in to prove my point... He didn't even look at it. He still insisted she was sick... but this time he said cancer. I don't even remember his reasons for the new diagnosis. He said I should continue with the anti-biotics and nebulizer (oops left that part out) and that she had a 30/70 chance for survival. I didn't even bother asking where he got that when all her tests were normal. I took her home and got her a frozen rat... I had decided that if she ate, she was fine. She ate, and two years later she still has not succumb to the "cancer". I put her through so much stress over a scraped up nose. I was also very worried as to what I would do if any of my exotics were to actually get sick, so I told my equine vet about the ordeal. She told me that although she can't really treat my reptiles, she can get me baytril, Fortaz, or any meds I needed.... The moral of this long story (sorry) is that BG is right in saying we know our reptiles best. I am not privaledged with a plethera of herp vets to chose from. I thought I was doing the right thing and I trusted that he knew snakes... He may know what he read in the latest vet journal, but he doesn't know my snake!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HRH Ingenue

Great Post! I found out the hard way when my boa got a new cage and irritated her nose when she checked out her new surroundings. I underestimated how many lamps I would need and one evening the temp dropped pretty low while she was soaking. I was paranoid when she didn't want to eat that her raw nose had turned into stomatitis or an RI, so I took her to the only vet that saw exotics in my area (Thinking I was doing the right thing). He told me that he had some other boa patients that go for routine care (Do people really do that? Ok, but have you ever seen a snake with a problem?) He literally took one look at my snake and told me that she was a very sick snake. I have had her for 10 years and I know her very well... she was about to shed, so she looked a little dull, but her eyes weren't opaque yet. I tried to tell him that, but he still insisted that she was very sick and dehydrated. He then went so far to tell me that she may be septic. He had not run any tests or a CBC so I asked how he knew this and why her behavior had not changed (other than missing a meal, probably because of her sore nose) if she was so sick. He pointed out some discolorations as his reasoning (that were normal for my snake prior to shed). He did examine inside her mouth and it was fine. This was right before a weekend and he recommended spending over $1,000 to send her to Texas A&M University for 24 hour care over the weekend. Everything but her nose was normal so I knew she was not that sick, but I did question myself. I asked what else I could do. He sent me home with Baytril injections and told me to come back after the weekend. I put her back in her old cage since I knew how to keep the temp and humidity perfect in it. I gave her the injections and then went back to the vet on monday. She was even closer to shedding time so he thought she had gotten worse. Her nose looked better and since that was my original reason for going, I disagreed. He went on and on about how sick she was and how she was septic. I have a great working relationship with my equine vet and I know a bit about infections and septicemia and that you can't state "facts" without any testing. He suggested she stay so he could give her fluids and supportive care. He had the nerve to tell me I should start thinking about euthanazia. Again, I asked what else I could do. Since he was so sure that she was septic, I told him to do a complete blood workup. He said it had to be sent to the lab so the results could take a few days. He actually knew about Fortaz and gave me that to give her. She shed and deficated a few days later. It was all perfectly normal. If she was so dehydrated, how did she have a perfect, complete shed? I called to inquire about the lab results. The receptionist said that everything was normal. I said, "So she isn't septic?" She said that she must not be because there was nothing written on it. I told her that she had deficated and shed fine, so I was asked to bring her back in for another exam. To me, she looked perfectly normal. Her nose was fine, everything seemed fine to me. I took the defication and shed in to prove my point... He didn't even look at it. He still insisted she was sick... but this time he said cancer. I don't even remember his reasons for the new diagnosis. He said I should continue with the anti-biotics and nebulizer (oops left that part out) and that she had a 30/70 chance for survival. I didn't even bother asking where he got that when all her tests were normal. I took her home and got her a frozen rat... I had decided that if she ate, she was fine. She ate, and two years later she still has not succumb to the "cancer". I put her through so much stress over a scraped up nose. I was also very worried as to what I would do if any of my exotics were to actually get sick, so I told my equine vet about the ordeal. She told me that although she can't really treat my reptiles, she can get me baytril, Fortaz, or any meds I needed.... The moral of this long story (sorry) is that BG is right in saying we know our reptiles best. I am not privaledged with a plethera of herp vets to chose from. I thought I was doing the right thing and I trusted that he knew snakes... He may know what he read in the latest vet journal, but he doesn't know my snake!

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Big Gunns could write a book thicker than War and Peace of stories he's heard just like this.:taz::taz: Thanks for the post. BG didn't post this thread for no reason. Pay attention people. Find a QUALIFIED VET. To be perfectly honest. You're probably better off not going at all if you can't find one. It's sad, but 100% true.:rage:

Important topic and one of the better "old" threads to be bumped recently, but there is one thing I want to comment on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Umm,



Are you sure that's a trick question? :bolt:


dr del

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Of course I was expecting to see a ball python eating a rabbit, but one that was pink and had little to no fur, not a rabbit at that stage. Unbelievable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by withonor

Important topic and one of the better "old" threads to be bumped recently, but there is one thing I want to comment on.



Of course I was expecting to see a ball python eating a rabbit, but one that was pink and had little to no fur, not a rabbit at that stage. Unbelievable.

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The pic doesn't mean it got the rabbit down(sometimes snakes wrap anything), although BG has some big balls(no pun):D that could probably eat a small bunny wabbit.

I think it's creepy how you refer to yourself in the third person:confused:

Good post ...just weird.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

The pic doesn't mean it got the rabbit down(sometimes snakes wrap anything), although BG has some big balls(no pun):D that could probably eat a small bunny wabbit.

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True, I did consider that. That ball python has some GIRTH. The rabbit looks bigger but I'm sure if it was wet and fur matted down it would look like the perfect food. We have no proof either way so let our opinions collide! The rabbit was half eaten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave763

I think it's creepy how you refer to yourself in the third person:confused:

Good post ...just weird.:rolleyes:

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It takes a while, but don't worry, soon all that "creepy"ness turns into BG man luv and admiration.:D