Another "weight" question...

So one of my females was born as a itty bitty 39g hatchling. And now @ two years old she's around 1350g. She's stopped eating... and is displaying the classic set of behaviors. I'm scared to try under 1500g but I'm thinking since she was a small hatchling maybe she's at the right weight "for her". Does this make any sense? Worst case scenario she just won't take I suppose. Thoughts?

if they are ready they will do it ....:)

You can breed females as low as 1300g, but the recommended/suggested weight is 1500g. You can breed her if you want, but if you don't feel comfortable breeding her at the weight she is now, you can wait until next year. By next year she'd most likely be over 2000g LOL.:D

Ok so I see the "recommended/ sugested" weight for breeding a BP to be 1500. I have seen weights ranging between 1000 grams and a starting weight and up to 2000 grame. If she is going to breed then she will if not then no harm done. I have my own standards but you are not asking for someone else to give you their standards. I know plenty of breeders who breed at 1000 grams and do perfectly fine. Just to make sure I am clear btw I am talking about the female weight not male weight.

I usually wait until they're at least 1500 grams but I have had some before that were just a little under and shown all of the signs, and when it happened I've went for it. It's all up to your comfort on the issue. There is no "set weight" in my opinion. Just a healthy starting point to go from.

The 'suggested weight' is baloney... I've had several females lay when they were less then 1000g I've got one that has laid good fertile clutches 2 years in a row and her post lay weight is around 700g Don't listen to what the 'experts' say... Fer crying out loud... I SWEAR that the WORST information DOESN'T come from newbies... I comes from people with 2-5 years experience who feel that they now 'KNOW IT ALL.....' IF YOU BREED YOUR FEMALE AND SHE IS MATURE ENOUGH TO LAY EGGS, THEN SHE WILL LAY EGGS...... PERIOD..... You can quote me on that... I'm sure it will be an earth shattering revelation for some...... :fart::fart::fart::fart::fart::fart:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The 'suggested weight' is baloney... I've had several females lay when they were less then 1000g I've got one that has laid good fertile clutches 2 years in a row and her post lay weight is around 700g Don't listen to what the 'experts' say... Fer crying out loud... I SWEAR that the WORST information DOESN'T come from newbies... I comes from people with 2-5 years experience who feel that they now 'KNOW IT ALL.....' IF YOU BREED YOUR FEMALE AND SHE IS MATURE ENOUGH TO LAY EGGS, THEN SHE WILL LAY EGGS...... PERIOD..... You can quote me on that... I'm sure it will be an earth shattering revelation for some...... :fart::fart::fart::fart::fart::fart:

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Pretty much exactly what I was saying. Thank you for being a second to my statement. Now I do not breed my females that small. I have gone into it way to many times to state how I breed my snakes. But that is the way I do it. I have my own opinion on breeding as you do for the way you breed. If a female is ready and you have the comfort to do it then do it... Let her breed if you are not comfortable breeding her at her current weight then don't.

Yes, she will lay eggs. A few. And maybe the year after that, a few. Now, if you want good-sized clutches, that's another story, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, she will lay eggs. A few. And maybe the year after that, a few. Now, if you want good-sized clutches, that's another story, isn't it?

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I've heard alot about this and have always wondered if this is a documented, factual effect of early breeding. I'd love to see some numbers on that

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The 'suggested weight' is baloney... I've had several females lay when they were less then 1000g I've got one that has laid good fertile clutches 2 years in a row and her post lay weight is around 700g Don't listen to what the 'experts' say... Fer crying out loud... I SWEAR that the WORST information DOESN'T come from newbies... I comes from people with 2-5 years experience who feel that they now 'KNOW IT ALL.....' IF YOU BREED YOUR FEMALE AND SHE IS MATURE ENOUGH TO LAY EGGS, THEN SHE WILL LAY EGGS...... PERIOD..... You can quote me on that... I'm sure it will be an earth shattering revelation for some...... :fart::fart::fart::fart::fart::fart:

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It's not complete "baloney" my leeetle Minion(BG loves to still use it when he can:D). It is true that a younger animal can be bred a produce eggs at a small size. BG doubts the males would pass up a young female in the wild if they were slithering by.


BG can't lie, he has bred females smaller than 1100 grams at the start with no problems(they gain a lot of weight while breeding). It's for obvious reason though. One year can make a huge difference when it comes to the price of a morph.

Here is the problem. They take a lot longer to get big. That year really sets them back. That's why Leeetle Minions female was less than 1000 grams 2 years in a row. If you can wait, it might be better. Although BG has had no problems with 18 month old smaller females, if you relate it to humans, BG guesses there could be more problems. BG's no expert, but if a 12 year old girl decided to have a baby, BG supposes(not 100% sure) there would more likely be a problem because of her size and age.

The Leeetle Minion(still miss them:tears:) is right though. If she is "mature enough" to lay eggs, there is a good chance she will. At 1350 and 2 years old, you'll probably be fine. BG has had a female that was around 1300 at the start of breeding lay 8 eggs, but it's usually 3 or 4.

ps. BG claimed to be "no expert" and said he wasn't "100% sure" purely for legal reasons.:D:D We all know Big Gunns knows everything.:D:P

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, she will lay eggs. A few. And maybe the year after that, a few. Now, if you want good-sized clutches, that's another story, isn't it?

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Depends on what you want to do with your breeding end game. Having 9 more snakes on the market doesn't help anyone. All my girls that will be breeding are 1200-1500. I want to make more of my mojaves, because he is different than any other I've seen. But when 5 of his look alikes pop out of a clutch (if all goes well)...well then...he's not so special anymore is he? Just my opinion, and Im a hobbyist more than a business man.

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs157...._1340088_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, she will lay eggs. A few. And maybe the year after that, a few. Now, if you want good-sized clutches, that's another story, isn't it?

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The thing is, do we have any significant studies/proof of this? I hear people say this all the time, but it's always hearsay. Large, 1500+ females can consistently lay small clutches, too. Has anyone showed a consistent link between "breeding at < 1500g" and fewer eggs?

I'm a businessperson, not just a hobbyist. Do I want a snake that lays 4 eggs every year...or one that lays 9 eggs every year? If I have to wait an extra year for 9 eggs, that's fine by me.

When 5 look-alikes pop out of an egg, I'm ecstatic. I can keep the best ones.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm a businessperson, not just a hobbyist. Do I want a snake that lays 4 eggs every year...or one that lays 9 eggs every year? If I have to wait an extra year for 9 eggs, that's fine by me.

When 5 look-alikes pop out of an egg, I'm ecstatic. I can keep the best ones.

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That's fair and I cant judge you for it. My priority is making high quality aminamals to stun my wife and share with the community. Tad bit extra for business purposes to offset the cost of the hobby and possibly make an extra dollar here and there, but the ultimate goal is produce a BEL, a Pied, (both for my wife) and a Lavender Clown Pied Something...and then I quit.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Here is the problem. They take a lot longer to get big. That year really sets them back. That's why Leeetle Minions female was less than 1000 grams 2 years in a row.

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Actually there BG, The 'Leetle Minions' female was acquired at nearly this same size, then the 'Leetle Minion' wasted THREE YEARS trying to get her 'UP TO A PROPER WEIGHT' But the funny thing was.... SHE WAS ALREADY AN ADULT and had already achieved the size that she was supposed to be..... You see, the funny thing about these animals is that they are UNIQUE INDIVIDUALS and will get as big as they're supposed to be and no more.... It's all in the genes.... Learn to listen to your animals... THEY will tell you when they are ready.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

It's not complete "baloney" my leeetle Minion(BG loves to still use it when he can:D). It is true that a younger animal can be bred a produce eggs at a small size. BG doubts the males would pass up a young female in the wild if they were slithering by.


BG can't lie, he has bred females smaller than 1100 grams at the start with no problems(they gain a lot of weight while breeding). It's for obvious reason though. One year can make a huge difference when it comes to the price of a morph.

Here is the problem. They take a lot longer to get big. That year really sets them back. That's why Leeetle Minions female was less than 1000 grams 2 years in a row. If you can wait, it might be better. Although BG has had no problems with 18 month old smaller females, if you relate it to humans, BG guesses there could be more problems. BG's no expert, but if a 12 year old girl decided to have a baby, BG supposes(not 100% sure) there would more likely be a problem because of her size and age.

The Leeetle Minion(still miss them:tears:) is right though. If she is "mature enough" to lay eggs, there is a good chance she will. At 1350 and 2 years old, you'll probably be fine. BG has had a female that was around 1300 at the start of breeding lay 8 eggs, but it's usually 3 or 4.

ps. BG claimed to be "no expert" and said he wasn't "100% sure" purely for legal reasons.:D:D We all know Big Gunns knows everything.:D:P

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Well as far as humans go (I'm a RN) 12 and 13 year olds do better than women in their 20's as far as childbirth. Less complication rates etc. actually. I don't know if this translates over to the snake world. The only problems seen in the younger population (humans) are from poor nutrition and inadequate pre-natal care. But side by side with proper nutrition and pre-natal care a 13 year old typically has better outcomes than a 30 year old.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually there BG, The 'Leetle Minions' female was acquired at nearly this same size, then the 'Leetle Minion' wasted THREE YEARS trying to get her 'UP TO A PROPER WEIGHT' But the funny thing was.... SHE WAS ALREADY AN ADULT and had already achieved the size that she was supposed to be..... You see, the funny thing about these animals is that they are UNIQUE INDIVIDUALS and will get as big as they're supposed to be and no more.... It's all in the genes.... Learn to listen to your animals... THEY will tell you when they are ready.

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There is some truth to that also my Leeetle Minion. It is all "in the genes". Although BG has sibs...some bred...some haven't. The ones that did not were usually...not always...larger if they didn't breed.

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Originally Posted by TaylorS

Well as far as humans go (I'm a RN) 12 and 13 year olds do better than women in their 20's as far as childbirth. Less complication rates etc. actually. I don't know if this translates over to the snake world. The only problems seen in the younger population (humans) are from poor nutrition and inadequate pre-natal care. But side by side with proper nutrition and pre-natal care a 13 year old typically has better outcomes than a 30 year old.

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Well this goes to show that nature knows best.

Like BG said earlier...he has not had a problem with smaller female Ball pythons...they usually just lay smaller clutches.


ps. What hospital do you work at that 12 and 13 year olds are coming in having babies? BG just wants to warn his buddies to keep their daughters outta that town.:D

Are you talking about the Caramel Albino? I am so excited to see some of those babies. What are you pairing her with? I love caramels.

The worst problem with the smaller weight girls is becoming egg bound. Of course, I think that's more for the under 1K g weight. I think yours is a good weight. Someone mentioned on here to go by looks. If she's looking fat then breed her. If they are long and skinny, but still 1200 g's, it's probably better to wait.

Good luck!!

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

The worst problem with the smaller weight girls is becoming egg bound. Of course, I think that's more for the under 1K g weight. I think yours is a good weight. Someone mentioned on here to go by looks. If she's looking fat then breed her. If they are long and skinny, but still 1200 g's, it's probably better to wait.

Good luck!!

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I have only heard of one female Ball python becoming egg bound in the 5-6 years I've been around..I'm sure it happens. But I've also seen people like Mark and BG breed sub 1100 gram girl with no problem..Is it something I would suggest to a new comer or first time breeder.. NO!!!..only reason is that you'll not know if something is wrong. It's not a bad thing just an experience thing..

I'm breeding my first sub 1100 gram girl this year..but shes 4 years old..I figure it like this if the breeding makes her eat great if she produces 2 eggs., I better pick something cool as hell to shoot for. :D

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Are you talking about the Caramel Albino? I am so excited to see some of those babies. What are you pairing her with? I love caramels.

The worst problem with the smaller weight girls is becoming egg bound. Of course, I think that's more for the under 1K g weight. I think yours is a good weight. Someone mentioned on here to go by looks. If she's looking fat then breed her. If they are long and skinny, but still 1200 g's, it's probably better to wait.

Good luck!!

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I'm pairing her with my pied.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Are you talking about the Caramel Albino? I am so excited to see some of those babies. What are you pairing her with? I love caramels.

The worst problem with the smaller weight girls is becoming egg bound. Of course, I think that's more for the under 1K g weight. I think yours is a good weight. Someone mentioned on here to go by looks. If she's looking fat then breed her. If they are long and skinny, but still 1200 g's, it's probably better to wait.

Good luck!!

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That is usually what people say, but Big Gunns has not found it to be the case himself. If they're under 1k they usually won't even produce eggs...although they sure can.

To make things perfectly clear(rare for BG). BG agrees with the Leeetle Minion.....kinda(a first in the world...write down the date fans:D). There is no one size fits all when it comes to breeding Balls. They can be bred smaller. Of course they're gonna lay smaller eggs, and have smaller clutches. BG doesn't think there are any more complications. Any size ball can get "egg bound".

Big Gunns can think of 4 sibs that he has had. One has bred for two years...the others didn't:taz:. The one that bred is just as big as the others.....so even though BG said that they will grow slower if they are bred, it is not always the case.

Big Gunns will say this though. Pete Kahl always lets his girls get big before he breeds them. He says they'll lay bigger clutches for him if he waits. He has zillions of animals so he can do that. If you only have a few snakes it's much harder to do if you're an inpatient sob.

****So to wrap it all up. You can try and breed your girls small, and probably have no more problems than if you wait. You'll just get smaller eggs and clutches and possibly a slightly "stunted"(not necessarily) female.

****. Legal disclaimer. If you have a problem...don't blame BG. What idiot listens to someone who talks in the third person anyway.:D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I have only heard of one female Ball python becoming egg bound in the 5-6 years I've been around..I'm sure it happens. But I've also seen people like Mark and BG breed sub 1100 gram girl with no problem..Is it something I would suggest to a new comer or first time breeder.. NO!!!..only reason is that you'll not know if something is wrong. It's not a bad thing just an experience thing..

I'm breeding my first sub 1100 gram girl this year..but shes 4 years old..I figure it like this if the breeding makes her eat great if she produces 2 eggs., I better pick something cool as hell to shoot for. :D

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Yeah, I think i've only seen one on here. It was one saved from a pet store. I was thinking it was only bad for the really small ones, like 900 g'ish. I guess it is a possibility for any female, depending on the egg size.

Lol. I bet both those little girls throw above average clutches. Just to disprove the weight theory :)

Taylor, once you start pairing her up she will probably start to eat again and gain weight quickly. In my experience females will start eating heavily once courting/breeding begins. I get my best feeding results the first few months of breeding season. I feed small meals since I cool at night so I don't want big meals sitting in their stomachs.

Also, regarding egg bound females: I've only had it happen twice and both females were "soft" rather then small. I can't explain why they seemed fat or soft as they were raised the same as my others, they just didn't have that solid muscular feel.

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Originally Posted by David Green

Also, regarding egg bound females: I've only had it happen twice and both females were "soft" rather then small. I can't explain why they seemed fat or soft as they were raised the same as my others, they just didn't have that solid muscular feel.

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Thanks! There really isn't a lot of insight into egg bound. It really helps a lot when you hear from people who have actually lived through it. So, it's probably more associated with girth of a female rather than weight?

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Originally Posted by David Green

Taylor, once you start pairing her up she will probably start to eat again and gain weight quickly. In my experience females will start eating heavily once courting/breeding begins. I get my best feeding results the first few months of breeding season. I feed small meals since I cool at night so I don't want big meals sitting in their stomachs.

Also, regarding egg bound females: I've only had it happen twice and both females were "soft" rather then small. I can't explain why they seemed fat or soft as they were raised the same as my others, they just didn't have that solid muscular feel like we all know Big Gunns does.

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Yep....they can gain a whole lot of weight while breeding if you feed them....and you should.

Those females must have had Leeetle Minion blood in them Dave.:D

OK...that's enough with the "Leeetle Minion". BG just misses his buddies. They gave Big Gunns life.:rofl::rofl:


ps. BG fixed your post also Dave.;):D

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Yep....they can gain a whole lot of weight while breeding if you feed them....and you should.

Those females must have had Leeetle Minion blood in them Dave.:D

OK...that's enough with the "Leeetle Minion". BG just misses his buddies. They gave Big Gunns life.:rofl::rofl:


ps. BG fixed your post also Dave.;):D

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Could you explain the events surrounding "Leeetle Minion's" passing..just for the uneducated among us..

Two isn't a great example just something I've noted. It wasn't girth as much as they felt fat/soft rather then the typicall solid feeling ball python.

BG, I was actually going to make such a comment but held off. :D

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Originally Posted by aarondm

I've heard alot about this and have always wondered if this is a documented, factual effect of early breeding. I'd love to see some numbers on that

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Adam Wysocki did some documentation in his own collection that he shared here:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...7&postcount=23

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Adam Wysocki did some documentation in his own collection that he shared here:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...7&postcount=23

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Very nice. That should be a sticky. I've never seen it before.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Could you explain the events surrounding "Leeetle Minion's" passing..just for the uneducated among us..

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They became to big for their britches to stay "Leeetle Minions".

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Originally Posted by David Green

BG, I was actually going to make such a comment but held off. :D

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Great minds think alike.:gj::D

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Adam Wysocki did some documentation in his own collection that he shared here:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...7&postcount=23

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Kinda what BG said, although BG has never noticed females only laying the same amount of eggs later in life. HHHMMMMMM. BG will keep an eye on this in the future.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Very nice. That should be a sticky. I've never seen it before.

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Are you trying to say what Adam(former Leeetle Minion) says is more important than Big Gunns?:taz::taz::taz::taz::taz::taz:

Big Gunns would say he has about a 25% success rate with females he tries.(the ones that he thinks could go). The first Candyball and Starburst(Pastel Candy) were produced from a small 18 month old girl. Big Gunns does not regret breeding her one teeeeennny weeeennnyy bit.:D


It looks like this comes down to a personal decision. There is enough evidence in this thread from experienced breeders to prove it doesn't hurt the girls health.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Kinda what BG said

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True, true - with the added "statistics" that someone was asking about! :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Could you explain the events surrounding "Leeetle Minion's" passing..just for the uneducated among us..

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When Kneel was just a wee little big gunns, he'd do some frequent flaming and trolling on the RDR forums and called anyone who was a regular on Ralph's forum a 'Leetle Minion' This eventually got him banned, which was actually a pretty hard thing to do on the RDR forum. This later culminated in good old Big Guns (or Big Gums as he was known on the RDR forum since he was constantly flapping them...) repeatedly punching himself in the head at Daytona much to the delight and entertainment of everyone around. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

When Kneel was just a wee little big gunns, he'd do some frequent flaming and trolling on the RDR forums and called anyone who was a regular on Ralph's forum a 'Leetle Minion' This eventually got him banned, which was actually a pretty hard thing to do on the RDR forum. This later culminated in good old Big Guns (or Big Gums as he was known on the RDR forum since he was constantly flapping them...) repeatedly punching himself in the head at Daytona much to the delight and entertainment of everyone around. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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:rofl::rofl::rofl: Don't forget how everyone ran for their life.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

It's very easy to get "banned" when that's what you're trying to do. All part of Big Gunns evil plan my Leeetle one. Big Gunns works in mysterious ways, that only someone with his IQ can understand. Funny how it all worked to perfection.:P


Some Leeetle Minions still don't "get it". They should talk to the dissenters....in other words.....the smart ones.:rofl::rofl: Don't worry Marky Mark...Big Gunns gives amnesty to all former Leeetle Minions once they "see the light".:D