how is this justifiable?

maybe someone can tell me? this is just awful. wouldn't this count as abuse if this was being done by anyone else?

a video of police dog 'training'
i hope that dog rips that guy to shreds one day..
YouTube - Baltimore Police Dept. Dog Trainging

That is called the alpha role. In wolf packs, one of the tactics that the alpha male uses (usually as a last resort) is this alpha role. You see it in domestic dogs as well, when a dog/wolf challenges that authority role, the alpha grabs the offending dog by the scruff and forces the opponent on it's back, with the belly exposed. I really don't like the use of this method, but occasionally, it has to be done to prove a point to the dog. It might look like he is using a lot of unnecessary force, but have you ever tried to wrestle a dog that size and pin him to the ground? It takes a lot for force, especially for a GSD. To me, it doesn't look like that form of training seems to be working for that dog, and they should have moved on to a different tactic, but that's just my $0.02.

i understand what your saying. but he actually lifts him up and swings him around by the neck, i don't think another dog could do that ( to that extent anyway.) i know those dogs are tough though, I'm probably just over reacting. I've just never seen anything like that vid before. thanks for the info.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aybe.sea

i understand what your saying. but he actually lifts him up and swings him around by the neck, i don't think another dog could do that ( to that extent anyway.) i know those dogs are tough though, I'm probably just over reacting. I've just never seen anything like that vid before. thanks for the info.

---

That isn't hurting the dog, I promise. It may look rough, but those dogs are built to handle tough situations and go through rigorous training. One of my friends has a golden retriever that gets a little out of hand 'playing' sometimes. When there's a lot of people around I do a similar thing by putting her on her back and holding her there in the Alpha position. It does take a lot of force to get a dog over like that, I have to lift her first then set her down on her back with me on top of her. It'll calm her down for the rest of the night unless someone intentionally works her up.

Purr is right, it does not seem to be a method that is working for that dog, they really should work on a different method, though sometimes that method can be put to good use.

Id love for that dog that show that guy whose the alpha. Theres no reason to throw him around like that. There are other ways of training a dog. I have three huskies and a german shepard and we actually had to have an aplha talk a few months ago when a husky and the german shepard got into a fight but I did not grab my dogs and spin them around like that. A police officer and there dog are a "team" Those dogs are considered officers. They usually go in first and take the guy out and they dont back down from anything there not afraid of knives and guns and there usually the ones that end up getting shot or stabbed. So that guy should show the dogs alittle more respect. It looks to me as if he has a large ego or a troubled life and has to throw a dog around all day at work to make himself feel better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purrrfect9

That is called the alpha role. In wolf packs, one of the tactics that the alpha male uses (usually as a last resort) is this alpha role. You see it in domestic dogs as well, when a dog/wolf challenges that authority role, the alpha grabs the offending dog by the scruff and forces the opponent on it's back, with the belly exposed.

---

Actually the lesser wolf willingly submits, they aren't physically forced. And dogs aren't wolves. Unfortunately "alpha rolling" is one of those holdovers that just won't die, even though the Monks who suggested it have retracted the idea long ago. Looks to me like they aren't training anything, just jerking the dog around. Maybe he's trying to teach the dog that humans are irrational crazy creatures because I imagine that's all the dog got out of it. Looks like it might be a malinois, not a GSD, great working breed.

Looks to be a Malinois, not a GSD.
The problem with training dogs this way, is you can BET that the dog will challenge you back for that alpha role. With apprehension dogs, I wouldn't want my dog to challenge me!!! I've seen a lot of police dogs trained in a more 'traditional' manner just fine. Never seen this first hand though.
This is not cruelty, but I sure wouldn't train my dogs this way!!

lol, you got in there before me with the malinois ;)
If you watch he rolls the dog when he bites at him/his wrist..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Looks to me like they aren't training anything, just jerking the dog around. Maybe he's trying to teach the dog that humans are irrational crazy creatures because I imagine that's all the dog got out of it. Looks like it might be a malinois, not a GSD, great working breed.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Actually the lesser wolf willingly submits, they aren't physically forced. And dogs aren't wolves. Unfortunately "alpha rolling" is one of those holdovers that just won't die, even though the Monks who suggested it have retracted the idea long ago. Looks to me like they aren't training anything, just jerking the dog around. Maybe he's trying to teach the dog that humans are irrational crazy creatures because I imagine that's all the dog got out of it. Looks like it might be a malinois, not a GSD, great working breed.

---

In most cases, yes the lesser wolf submits from subtle cues from the alpha. What I meant to say was that when the alpha wolf is challenged (i.e. for the alpha position) that they will fight/alpha roll the opposing wolf to maintain his dominance.

Corvid, I noticed the biting on the wrist as well. Also, if you listen toward the end, the officer is being told by someone off camera when to roll the dog, and to continue doing it.
Either way, both officer and dog look very frustrated, and the dog unfortunately likely learned nothing from this experience other than to distrust and fear his 'partner'. You shouldn't ever EVER continue training like this when any animal gets that frustrated. You just end up trying to correct more bad behavior formed from the traumatic event. And who knows, all dogs have different personalities. This dog could have possibly gone home that night, had himself some prime rib for dinner, and curled up in his 'partners' lap while having his belly rubbed... Not likely though.

You can hear in the video at 2:12 or so: "I don't like to do this, but you can see that the dog..." and then it cuts out.

In addition, I think that the guy is being forceful but he isn't slamming the dog down or anything and hurting it.

Either way, the police officer is no dog expert I assume, and is working with someone off camera trusting them to tell him what to do to train the dog. Any blame resides with the off camera guy, who is in charge of the situation.

That video was removed from youtube so you can't see it anymore. Maybe someone can explain lol

just showed a cop throwing around and screaming at a dog.

I have a friend who has a police dog. He's half wolf, and he has to do this every once in awhile. Of course, being part wolf, he has to re-establish dominance. I don't think it happens very often, but his dog gets just as rough with him. It's almost like combatting for the dominant role.

Neither ever get hurt though, and he treats his dog really good. It's funny the dog only knows commands in German. So, if you say sit, he just looks at you. Lol. He is very well taken care of.

You can do a serch on YouTube for "Baltimore Police Dog Training." It's still there.

As an LEO myself and having numerous family members involved in Law Enforcement with some (as well as myself) served or serving on K-9 patrol. Alot of the general public does not understand the training involved with these K-9's. These officers have to be able to demonstrate FULL control at all times over these dogs in critical situations or you or your dept. can face severe liability. These K-9's arent trained for the Eukanuba championship, They are trained officers to work in often dangerous and rigerous situations. BUT rest assured these K-9's are better taken care of than most children. Just my 2 cents.

I understand the concept and it will work. My problem with that video is imo that dude does not have the power to do the technique and it is not working!!! Move on to another tactic!!! He is more or less just throwing the dog around and the dog is getting out of it. If he can't keep the dog down why would the dog think the man is the alpha? He is not much of an alpha imo and should just try something else other then jacking the dog up. Just my :2cent:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boanerges

I understand the concept and it will work. My problem with that video is imo that dude does not have the power to do the technique and it is not working!!! Move on to another tactic!!! He is more or less just throwing the dog around and the dog is getting out of it. If he can't keep the dog down why would the dog think the man is the alpha? He is not much of an alpha imo and should just try something else other then jacking the dog up. Just my :2cent:

---

I agree, if you look at the dogs body language, it looks like he thinks the officer is trying to play. Submissive behavior should look like the tail between the legs, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I agree, if you look at the dogs body language, it looks like he thinks the officer is trying to play. Submissive behavior should look like the tail between the legs, right?

---

Some kids laugh when their mom beats them with a wooden spoon :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nate

Some kids laugh when their mom beats them with a wooden spoon :cool:

---

Lol!! I don't know what you are talking about. I think my parents finally just decided to let us do whatever, as long as there weren't any cops involved. Where is the fun in that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boanerges

I understand the concept and it will work. My problem with that video is imo that dude does not have the power to do the technique and it is not working!!!

---

Don't forget, in that specific vid, there is as much training going on for the officer as the dog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Don't forget, in that specific vid, there is as much training going on for the officer as the dog.

---

My speakers are broken on my cpu so I can not hear what is being said. If the officer is training then that is better then him knowing what to do already but I still think he is doing a crappy job with that technique. I should note that I am friends with K9 officers and have no problems with their techniques. I just think this guy is better suited for a different approah. More then anything honestly I wish I had not watched the video to have an opinion...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nate

Some kids laugh when their mom beats them with a wooden spoon :cool:

---

Hopefully their mom learns fast that technique will not work and to try a different one :D

there is alot in dog behaviour that is used in training that many may feel is over the top for instance. When our Rottie was little we had a devil of a time trying to clip his nails. Our trainer told us to lay on him..Now at first this sounds like a crule thing to do. It isn't what you think as a baby if you put your weight on them till they quit struggling your showing them that your the bigger stronger dog and they stop resisting. After a few times they don't even try to struggle.

Now he is a 90lb dump truck with hair and to this day all I have to do is put my hand on him and exert a little pressure and he will lay there and not even try and squirm. Cause in his mind it's pointless.

Another example..baby gates. We used them to restrict the dogs access to the parts of the house as pups. Now both could easly jump them flat footed..but they won't even try.. All we have to do is prop a gate in the door and they don't even try to get around.

Being the Alpha doens't mean you have to be mean or crule but it does mean at some point you have to prove you are bigger stonger and worthy to be the alpha.

Now both my dogs walk right at my side down the hall or any where. they don't rush past me and wait to go in or out and even "Step back" from the door if they forget till I step out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boanerges

I understand the concept and it will work. My problem with that video is imo that dude does not have the power to do the technique and it is not working!!! Move on to another tactic!!! He is more or less just throwing the dog around and the dog is getting out of it. If he can't keep the dog down why would the dog think the man is the alpha? He is not much of an alpha imo and should just try something else other then jacking the dog up. Just my :2cent:

---

I completely agree with you about the officer in this vid.

No explanation needed:)
YouTube - Police Training Video (AMAZING!!!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Don't forget, in that specific vid, there is as much training going on for the officer as the dog.

---

EXACTLY, we know nothing here. This could be the officer's first day with this dog (or any) for all we know.
This is why officer training shouldn't be televised, Joe Q. Public does not know half of what they're working on and with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nate

Some kids laugh when their mom beats them with a wooden spoon :cool:

---

LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Hopefully their mom learns fast that technique will not work and to try a different one :D

---

She did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corvid

EXACTLY, we know nothing here. This could be the officer's first day with this dog (or any) for all we know.
This is why officer training shouldn't be televised, Joe Q. Public does not know half of what they're working on and with.

---

I agree that it should not be taped for the public to see. I do not personally want to see a subordinate type person pretend/try to ba an alpha and fail. Again, just my opinions...

I can't see the vid but as a puppy I had to teach my doy not to sap at people. I would take her by the scruff, turn her over and hold her snout. Not hurting her though, I as following the vets advise because my puppy was just a puppy needing training or else we would have major agression issues later on. It worked, she's a well behaved bichon now:)

The last vid, showed dogs who need more training on leaving the suspect well trained dogs should respond the first time..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Being the Alpha doens't mean you have to be mean or crule but it does mean at some point you have to prove you are bigger stonger and worthy to be the alpha.

---

Well said Ed. I'm 5'1" tall. I have two dogs that easily are stronger than I am. They actually did manage to pull me over and drag me almost 4 feet on my face across the ground this summer. Yes they wrenched my back really badly and yep it hurt like the devil but I kept their leashes in my hands and I got back up, gave them hell about it and had them both back under control in seconds. Then I limped away. Not until they both got it real clear that we don't do that crap with the alpha lady. Neither have lunged again on lead with me though it was almost 2 months before my back was strong enough to walk either of them.

You don't have to be mean but you do have to be in charge and even if they are stronger than you, convince them otherwise. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I agree, if you look at the dogs body language, it looks like he thinks the officer is trying to play. Submissive behavior should look like the tail between the legs, right?

---

Not always. My male dog, Marrok, submits to me but never like that unless he knows he's in major trouble (stealing kid's toys or the like). Submission from a dog can be just a quiet, calm attitude that says "yep I know you are the boss".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Actually the lesser wolf willingly submits, they aren't physically forced. And dogs aren't wolves. Unfortunately "alpha rolling" is one of those holdovers that just won't die, even though the Monks who suggested it have retracted the idea long ago. Looks to me like they aren't training anything, just jerking the dog around. Maybe he's trying to teach the dog that humans are irrational crazy creatures because I imagine that's all the dog got out of it. Looks like it might be a malinois, not a GSD, great working breed.

---

I'd like to point out that wolf and dog DNA are virtually indistinguishable. And believe it or not, what you see a wolf doing in the wild IS what our domestic dogs should be doing, or at least having those basic needs fulfilled in other ways. Not having those needs met is why we have so many dogs with psychological problems - from aggression, to obsession, hyperactivity, fear, and general behavioral problems.

That is nothing compared to how the train dogs in Europe you would throw up at how brutal, and in humane as well.

lance

Dogs are NOT wolves.

Wolves are wild animals.

Dogs are domesticated animals that have adapted to a domestic way of life an interaction. The pack dynamics of wolves and the pack dynamics of dogs are similar, but NOT the same.

I'd like to point out that the guy in that second video hauled that dog around by it's HARNESS to get him to let go. NOT his scruff. That is why these dogs wear harnesses. And for dogs responding in a very high-charged, reactive atmosphere and trained to respond in such an aggressive, reactive manner, they listen surprisingly well.

I do not agree with alpha roll tactics, particularly when training adult dogs. If you do not know what you're doing, you could be setting both yourself and the dog up for potentially dangerous failure.