Looking for advice from "the experts"

Ok so I'm thinking about starting my own colony soon. I'm probably just going to use two or three big free standing tubs (no rack) with wire mesh tops and all that good stuff. Most likely with 1.3-4 to start with.

Now for my questions, first if there are any criticisms/advise regarding my plan above.

Also what kind of rats (species/breed) do people recommend? I'm looking for rats that will make good breeders as well as good pets. I'm not really interested in ASFs.

I guess we'll open the floor with that but there will probably be more questions coming.

I don't consider myself anywhere near an "expert" but I do raise rats and mice. I haven't had to purchase a rodent for a long time now so I must be doing something right. I just went down to the local pet store one day and bought a male and two females. I started out with white rats and along the way I noticed a patterned rat and held that one back. I always try to hold back breeders that are friendly or have an interesting pattern.

The two things I would point out...

It's a ton of work, and it's all about the scheduling. You don't want to wind-up with a bunch of rats that are too large for your snakes to eat.

And what do you recommend I do to help avoid that? And do you by any chance know/remember what breed/species it was that you bought?

I'm looking for something that is both a hardy breeder and a fun pet.

Also if you have any advice about stuff that I haven't asked about feel free to throw that at me too.

As far as pets go just about any rat or mouse can make a great pet. They are very social animals and will bond with you if you handle them from a young age. I had a mouse early on that I became quite close to. My entire mouse breeding stock came from this female (Campbell).

That said, I wouldn't recommend making friends with, naming, and handling feeder rodents. Unless you're heartless feeding off pets and their babies is very difficult. At least for me it is.

Breeding rats is not rocket science. Put two together and in a couple weeks you have 13 or so. It doesn't take long for them to grow so just add up your snakes and do the math.

well what would you recommend for a starting # of breeders? at the moment I just have 1.0 normal balls but am soon getting another. the reason my proposed amount of initial females is so high is to ensure that I don't run out of feeders in the time between litters or that they don't grow too big (my current snake is just a baby so can't handle anything much bigger than a fuzzy and he only takes live. the female I'm getting soon is bigger so will be able to take some of the larger ones. but I'm just wondering what you, or anybody else for that matter, thinks.

And thanks a lot for everything so far, keep it coming! it's really helping a lot.

I didn't even think about breeding rats until I had about ten adult BP's. You just don't have enough hungry snakes yet to make it work.

Of course this is just my opinion but I do love to say I told you so.

I don't mean to rain on your parade. Sounds like you really want a pet rat. You should just pick up (ONE) rat and keep her as a pet. That way when you are ready to start breeding you will have a solid background and experience with keeping them. Like I said, be careful. They are so darn affectionate it can really change how you feel about feeding them to snakes.

Ok, fair enough. I was just planning on selling all the extras but if you don't think that'd work...

I was just trying to avoid the $5 a week fee and maybe even make a little bit of a profit. I definitely have the space for the rats and I know I have a place for the extras to go. Do you think that would be a viable operation or not? I knew that my snake(s) would not be enough to warrant the colony but do you think it would be worth it if I sell the "spares"?

That's a question only you can answer. If you don't mind the smell, and the work, and being tied to you rodents everyday, then go for it. I wouldn't do it just for the money though. Keep in mind that a bag of lab block is $30 bucks and bedding is $6 a bag.

You could always start out with a pregnant mouse for now. At least that way you could feed off the babies if you can't find a market for them.

I forgot to mention that pet stores (just like you) do not want large rats. Time will be working against you here.

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Originally Posted by Jenn

I forgot to mention that pet stores (just like you) do not want large rats. Time will be working against you here.

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Hmmmm, out here they want the big ones more than the little ones. They just don't want to pay what it costs to get them big.

Rats don't do well alone, so get 2. 2 females, 2 males, one of each, makes no difference to the rats, but they like company.

You can freeze any you don't need to feed and have a nice store for rainy days.

ok, sounds good. thanks guys.

also if anybody has anything else for me i'd be happy for the input.

and i still haven't really gotten a straight answer about this, is there any particular breed that is better than others?

I breed tons of rats...

I prefer colored rats over the typical all whites.

Pet shops here will happily swap rats for store credit or cash regardless of size if they are healthy.

I recommend you build a rack.

dried pine works fine (I like suncoast)

equine fresh also works...

lab block here is $21 a bag (6f/50 lbs)

I don't separate...

and if you aren't selling then you need to learn to bag and freeze.

Very rare for me anymore to have trouble finding an eager buyer.

Norway rats are what is most common if you're going for "typical rats." I myself have a small colony of 4 males, 10 females. Everyone else's advice has been spot on from what I've seen about cost of food/bedding.

Now I am no expert as I've just barely gotten into this myself, but you will want to research megacolon in rats. At the current time, the established colony I bought contained mostly white rats, with a few of what they refer to as "hooded" rats. The "hooded" rats (the rats that have a colored face/shoulders/front legs, and will often have a stripe down the center of their backs) are the least susceptible to megacolon (it's kinda a long story, but megacolon is linked to the color migration genetics--research it for all the info), and I'm currently holding back some of the hooded rats that my breeders have produced to make them breeders when they get big enough. Eventually I hope to feed off all of the white ones, with the exception of my huge rats since my snakes aren't large enough to take them (but like others here, I may have issues getting rid of my super-big breeders).

As for timing and breeding, you can start off with just one male and one female together. Next week, add another female, next week, add another, and so on. You can keep males in with the females and babies if need be, and typically once the female has her litter of babies weaned, she will be almost ready to drop more pinks. Now that's not to say that that's the best way to breed them. Females really should have some time off in order to re-gain bone density/general health between litters, but if you're just starting off, you may need to breed heavy at first, then cut back (though if you only have one or two ball pythons, you may not need to do that).

Hope this helps!

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Originally Posted by Chaossoldier11

Ok, fair enough. I was just planning on selling all the extras but if you don't think that'd work...

I was just trying to avoid the $5 a week fee and maybe even make a little bit of a profit. I definitely have the space for the rats and I know I have a place for the extras to go. Do you think that would be a viable operation or not? I knew that my snake(s) would not be enough to warrant the colony but do you think it would be worth it if I sell the "spares"?

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If you get the profit, please pass on the wisdom...For me it's more convenience and not making a profit...I'll be lucky to break even by end of the year and it would be cheaper going F/T, but I have some that just won't eat their food that way, so I'm breeding my own for all of them...It is fun once you get started, but it is A LOT OF WORK if you do it right...

we'll try and go somewhat in order here.

first of all, what are the advantages of a rack over free standing tubs, other than saving space? and what would you recommend for me cuz i have plenty of floor and table space but not much height space/permanent space. one nice thing about tubs is that they are portable, where with a rack... not so much.

second, where do you guys get your lab block? cuz i used to work at petsmart and i don't think we ever sold anything like that, at least not in that quantity. not that i remember anyway... but that doesn't mean too much lol

third, i guess this is just a general question (and probably a stupid one). you were talking about keeping some of the babies for future breeding, do you have to get a new male then (assuming you only had one before, and if you already had multiple how do you know who the father is) or do you just go ahead and start inbreeding?

and lastly (for this post, lol) everybody keeps saying how it's a ton of work, but again, i worked at petsmart and have owned various rodents in the past (just as normal pets no breeding) and yeah, it's not like you just plop em in there and walk away, but checking and filling water, feeding them, cleaning cages every couple days, and separating knocked up females so they don't get knocked up again right away doesn't seem like that much work. is there something i'm missing? where is all the dreaded work?

and thanks a ton to everyone who has posted so far. for the most part it's all been really great advice and a lot of help. KEEP IT COMING!

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Originally Posted by Chaossoldier11

we'll try and go somewhat in order here.

first of all, what are the advantages of a rack over free standing tubs, other than saving space? and what would you recommend for me cuz i have plenty of floor and table space but not much height space/permanent space. one nice thing about tubs is that they are portable, where with a rack... not so much.

second, where do you guys get your lab block? cuz i used to work at petsmart and i don't think we ever sold anything like that, at least not in that quantity. not that i remember anyway... but that doesn't mean too much lol

third, i guess this is just a general question (and probably a stupid one). you were talking about keeping some of the babies for future breeding, do you have to get a new male then (assuming you only had one before, and if you already had multiple how do you know who the father is) or do you just go ahead and start inbreeding?

and lastly (for this post, lol) everybody keeps saying how it's a ton of work, but again, i worked at petsmart and have owned various rodents in the past (just as normal pets no breeding) and yeah, it's not like you just plop em in there and walk away, but checking and filling water, feeding them, cleaning cages every couple days, and separating knocked up females so they don't get knocked up again right away doesn't seem like that much work. is there something i'm missing? where is all the dreaded work?

and thanks a ton to everyone who has posted so far. for the most part it's all been really great advice and a lot of help. KEEP IT COMING!

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Me, I do have a rack. It was part of the whole purchase for me, and it was the most convenient for me. But if glass tanks or free standing tubs are more suited to your needs, go for it! ;)

You can sometimes buy lab block at local feed stores (such as Co-Op or Tractor Supply), depending on the stores near you. The ones in my town don't carry it, but the next town over does. If that's not an option for you, you can order directly through Mazuri at mazuri.com, though the 50 lb bag of food is going to cost you about $30, plus ~$25 for shipping.

I have my breeders separated into different tubs (2 males with 5 females), so I am holding back certain males from this tub and certain females from the other, so any inbreeding I might be doing would be limited. Though I've been told with rats you can inbreed and it won't bother them (however, I have nothing to substantiate that statement, so take it with a grain of salt, or perhaps someone with more experience on the subject can chime in here).

I think where most of the "work" that people are referring comes in at is here: most of us who breed our own feeders are doing so because we have a lot of snakes. And most are probably hobbyist breeders, not full-time snake breeders. So couple a full work day along with coming home and caring for all of your snakes, and then to top it all off you have to work time in to get the rats clean, fed, watered, etc. More of a not-enough-time-in-the-day type of thing. ;) If you only have a couple of ball pythons, caring for a few rats probably isn't going to seem like a lot of work to you (but that will depend on the rest of you day's schedule). If you feel as though caring for a few rats isn't going to take up too much of your time, great. But only you can decide that. ;)

Hope this helps!

yeah, it does. thanks a lot =)

Racks tend to take up less space and secure lid to tub better.

yes the domestic rat is a type of norway

yes you can source some type of rat block at a feed store...(ie: Mazuri, Kent, Sand Valley, Harlen, Zeigler, Purina...there are tons of options)

inbreeding....this is a vague subject. Most inbreeding is done intentionally by limiting exposure.

If you have 2 tubs of 1.4


keep their babies separate and chose males from the first tub and females from the second...but even then they could be inbreed since the parents could be related even if they are bought from different stores. I supply most stores within 30 miles...so if you buy rats here locally, you are buying from my stock...which could have came from the same tub.

thanks a lot.

Keep the input coming people!

you can also use hog feed if you cant find any rodent block. you want at least 15 or 16% protein but not much more than 20%. I buy hog feed from TSC right now.

I breed asfs and the regular ole rat. Asfs might be a good option for you right now if your looking to feed 1 or 2 snakes, (I know you said you didnt really want to). I consider the rats a lot of work because i spend more time and effort caring for them than i do my snakes.

I prefer a rack over tubs because they are easier to clean, for me. Plus putting all the hardware cloth in the sides of the tubs and everything is a good amount of work too.

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Originally Posted by matt71915

you can also use hog feed if you cant find any rodent block. you want at least 15 or 16% protein but not much more than 20%. I buy hog feed from TSC right now.

I breed asfs and the regular ole rat. Asfs might be a good option for you right now if your looking to feed 1 or 2 snakes, (I know you said you didnt really want to). I consider the rats a lot of work because i spend more time and effort caring for them than i do my snakes.

I prefer a rack over tubs because they are easier to clean, for me. Plus putting all the hardware cloth in the sides of the tubs and everything is a good amount of work too.

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what food are you using specifically?

I too have switched over to hog food, just for the fact getting Mazuri or any other food without taking a two hour drive, or paying a fortune for it, or the people two hours away are out. It just became to much of a inreliability.

I use a hog food that is from purina, it says start to finish on the package ... and ingredient wise is almost identical to Mazuri 6F except the fat percentage is a bit lower.

First off If you want rats that have less of an attitude I would invest in getting either Blue rats or dumbos both of which Normally dont bite... Even with out constant holding. I too Use (hog Feed) AKA Sow Cubes. It works wonders. Bedding I use PF chips The large flakes of pine. Less dust, better breathing, happy rats ^_^ I use racks And if you want them to be mobile just throw some light duty casters on the legs. I am building another rack tomorrow and picking up 60 more breeders. The only rats I have that bite are the ugly lab rats... unless they are dumbos...