septicemia :(

hi i'd be grateful for any feedback on this as i really feel like im at a loose end on this one. My three year old python was diagnosed with septicemia this time last year and was given a course of antibiotics (fortum) injected twice weekly. She was really quite poorly, hadnt eaten for about 6 months, blood under the scales covering quite a large section of her body and was really quite weak. Luckily she responded well to the antibiotics and pulled through, gradually started eating again and her condition improved. After a few months the blood under the scales came back, only covering a couple of cm of scales, took her back to the vets and she told me to keep an eye on it but it didn't look like anything to worry about as it didn't seem aggressive and she was eating, showing normal behaviour etc. So i did just that. For the past year this redness has came and went every few months in small patches, dissappearing shortly after and she appeared fine and eating well. I'd taken her back to the vets a few times and she'd said it looked like something she could fight herself and to continue to monitor it.
Anyway, about half way through september she stopped eating. i wasn't too concerned at first as i know how prone bps are to going off their food. I noticed the septicemia was back and after her refusing two feeds i took her back to the vet. Her muscle tone is too good for the vet to feel anything wrong but she's gave me the same course of antibiotics as last time to administer twice weekly. The first two weeks she was constantly roaming her cage and i could tell she was really stressed. After the second week i took her for a checkup and the vet said to just keep her going with the treatment. After the second week she's seemed to settle a bit, she's still not eating(ive been offering weekly)but she seems to be showing more normal behaviour. I've left her undisturbed during this time except when i clean her and to inject her. However i've noticed tonight that the redness has spread from one little patch under her chin to 2/3 larger patches along her neck. im worried that she's not responding as well as she did before and it's really getting me down as i feel helpless and that it's my fault she's suffering.
I understand how septicemia is caused, through bacteria entering the body through cuts etc, filthy cages and also a secondary infection to something more serious. So i know that chances are it is something i'm doing wrong.
As far as i know she hasn't had any injuries that could have caused this, her cage is cleaned regularly, water changed daily, faeces never left in there.
I keep her in a 4ft viv, heated by a red heat bulb on a thermostart, hot end 85-90,cold end 70-75. hide either end with the hot hide doubling as a hot spot under the bulb. water bowl in hot end,humidity 55, plenty of shelter and hiding places, newspaper substrate.At the minute she rests mainly in the cold hide but the vet has said to knock the temp up to help her fight this.
any suggestions on anything i could be doing wrong would be really helpful, i don't want to be making the situation any worse for her.
I'm really worried she's not going to pull through so if anyone knows of anything more i can do or has been in a similar situation id really like to hear from you.
sorry about the essay, i just wanted to be thorough

Sounds like there is a chronic problem here. Did the vet do any blood work? That would be a great next step towards getting to the root of the problem. Blood tests can tell us a lot about what is going on in the body. I would want to do a CBC and chemistry panel in this case.

Hang in there.

I would definitely bump the temps up. Your cool side is too cool even for regular maintenance, much less for a sick ball python. Aim for lower 80's on the cool side and closer to 90-92 on the warm side.

I hope this works out for you and you're able to help her kick the illness once and for all!

You have some husbandry problems that you need to work out.
First, 4ft is an awfully big cage. Cool side needs to be 80-85F and warm side 90-95F. Humidity 60%.

It sounds possibly stressed related, but a smaller enclosure will allow for you to regulate the problem and the temps more. Get rid of the heat lamp and get a UTH to put on the thermostat as well as getting some thermometers with probes for regulating the temperatures.
What kinds of hides are you using?

Get a second vet opinion.

I might as well add in (since people have already got the husbandry needs down) that the snake's body is getting immune to the injections so the injections MAY not be working as successfully as it did the first time. It's the same thing when you take medicine too much, like when your sick and take some Robitussen (sp?) or Tylenol too much. Each time you take it your body starts to become immune to the effects of the medicine so once you've taken it too much (not from only ONE time your sick, but maybe a few other times) you can't use it anymore because your body has become immune to it.
Sorry if that was a little confusing to explain.

That doesn't actually happen, Tiffany. If the antibiotics aren't working it's because the infecting bacteria isn't susceptible, the issue isn't a bacterial infection, or the dose is wrong.

Hi thanks for all your posts of concern,I really appreciate it.hopefully I can get to the bottom of this with your help. Crittervet- I am due back 2 the vets on the 5th so I will suggest that to my vet.she has spoke to me about this before but said it can be quite long winded,hence the course of antibiotics.although I think this wud be a good next step seen as though she's not responding as well.ill let you know how it goes.blackcrystal-thanks for the advice,I hav been looking into getting under tank heating but with it being a large viv I wasn't sure it wud heat it as well.also id heard bad things about them.changing the viv atm is out of the question as I can't afford to.my viv is wooden so how wud I go about putting uth in?what size and wattage?and what thermostat is good 2 use?wud u add and additional heat source? Thanks for all the input guys,there's so many different opinions out there,its goos to get sum specific advice.x

Wooden? is the inside bottom of your viv wood or is it covered in plastic/plexiglass? I would think that the porous nature of wood could be holding some bacteria/mold, especially if the viv has been in use for some time or with more than one animal.

Its just the standard 4ft wooden vivs with glass sliding doors on the front.I clean it with reptile antibacterial (cascade). My beardie has the same one and I havnt had any problems with him.think I'm need to invest I'm a new glass viv sometime soon.

I'm not familiar with a wooden viv. If the bottom is wood it can definitely be holding bacteria, mold, fungus, etc. I would consider this a possible irritant that may not be present in your beardie because of the humidity differences - less humidity would help to prevent the retention of molds and fungi. If the bottom of the viv is wooden definitely make sure your vet is aware so s/he can rule it out as a possible source of irritation.

I agree with the people saying to increase the temps. Maybe try putting one more hide in there just on the edge on the hot side. So the snake doesnt need to choose safety over temperature. Have you vet give the snake a blood test (like was said). The wood might have something to do with it but using paper if its thick enough and the snake doesnt ever actually touch the wood bottom, it doesnt seem feesable. Not if you keep it as clean as you say. But remember that mold creates mold spores that become airborn. EVen if you cant see it.

Find out what antibiotc your vet has been giving. There are gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Some antibiotics only treat one. Some treat the other. Some treat both (broad spectrum). If hes giving the wrong thing your snake might not respond. (I needed to learn this for my fish)

Here is a link and a scary paragraph from it to show you how important it is to get those temps up.

"Another important consideration is the ambient temperature of the reptile's environment. Pharmacokinetic studies have shown that an increase in ambient temperature tends to increase both the volume of distribution and body clearance of the drug. A decrease in ambient temperature with a resultant decrease in body clearance could potentially allow a build up in concentration of the drug to a point where it might reach toxic levels if dosing is not decreased accordingly."

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com.../detail/567299

Thanks for that draigess.she's using fortum 0.3ml twice a week injected.not sure if its broad spectrum or not,I'll check with her when I go back.I'm definitely guna ask about blood aswell.as for the temps, I think I'm guna need undertank heating but I think the temps will get 2 low without the red bulb aswell.what size heat mat wud u recommend for a 4ft viv and what thermostat?would this be ok 2 use in the type of viv iv got and if not any suggestions?I just want her to be well again.

Fortum = ceftazidime. That is a broad specturm antibiotic.

The size of under tank heat mat should be around 1\3 the size of the bottom of the cage. Being wood it will be difficult to get the temp where you want it initially. There is no danger in putting it on wood. The flash point or fire point is around 500 degrees and under tank heaters even if they over heat should never get that hot. The biggest problem with this is that you should mount it to the bottom on the outside. Not the inside. Getting it to stay on wood can be difficult. They come with a sticky side but id use some foil tape around the edges as well. The cage should be raised enough to allow excess heat to escape from the bottom and so the cage does not sit on the cord. The thermostat controller probe should probably be placed on the inside of the cage to get a more accurate temp where the snake is. Another difficult task to make sure it doesnt move. Honestly i would rather invest in a ceramic heat emitter and mount it at the top in a place where the snake cant touch it. They last at least a year if they are not jarred. They put out alot of heat depending on wattage. They need to be screwed into a lamp with a ceramic socket which is rated for a higher wattage then you plan to use. You can find metal and ceramic drop lights at hardware stores that will work for a ceramic heat emitter bulb. You would still want to put a thermostat probe at the level the snake is at. 90 to 92 degrees on the warm side for a sick snake. 85 or so ambient temp on the cool side. How high is your cage and is it open screen at the top or front or is it enclosed?

I went to tubs. I have now got 7 snakes, and with all new tubs, UTH's and 2 hides for each - one on each side, the whole thing cost about 300 - thats not bad when you think about the fact that I have 9 to buy for! So you should really consider switching to tubs just to see if her condition improves as well as probably getting a 2nd vet opinion. The plus to tubs is they are easier to heat, they retain humidity better, the snake feels more protected, and you can definately sanitize it better! Just some food for thought.

Not that I know much ....pretty new to this ....however with that being said. Something that comes to mind reading this post is the fact that it is a wooden bottom cage. Unless the bottom is poly eurothene.(I totally spelled that wrong) basically unless that wood is sealed correctly then it IS a breeding ground for bacteria. Even if the wood was sealed.....after time the seal will wear. They find this with certain types of counter tops as well. The difference with the snake and the Beardie...is the Beardies use sand ....I think. I truly believe that this is the culprit of your snakes sickness and even if you get rid of the illness ....it will continue to occur. Even if you are using a great anti bacterial cleaner...it will not get out the ick in the wood. It is kind of like wooden cutting boards...they house TONS of bacteria even if you clean them.

I'm good with human health conditions, but am novice with snake problems. The redness, or blood you descibe underneath the scales first sounds like a clotting disorder. These are typically hereditary (again, in humans) and there are many different ways to interrupt the clotting cascade, thus many different clotting disorders. Hemophilia is the general term for this. You didn't mention any bleeding from the mouth, vents, or cloaca, so that might rule this out. I would definitely request a CBC (complete blood count). Look specifically for an elevated white blood cell count, as this is an indication for some type of immune response to infection. Get these blood results when you notice the spots are getting worse.

When speaking to the effectiveness of the antibiotic, your problem becomes particularly interesting. If there is an infection present, the fact that the symptoms have not resolved would indicate that the organism is resistant to the antibiotic. So one would suggest to simply try another antibiotic. However, the fact that this has gone on for months leads me to believe that it is not an infection. Animals can only be septic for a short period before intervention is made and they get better, or they die. Also, significant weight loss might indicate that there is some type of pathogen involved.

This is an interesting problem. My suggestion would be to get some blood labs for interpretation. Best of luck to you.

i wouldnt doubt if your snake has an internal abcess that has never been addressed which could be causing the proble, an abcess can wall off making antibiotics hard to fully cure issue usually only treatable by surgery and drained sometimes radiologically with needle
its a guess but if its reoccuring and husbandry issues its possible

I hope you figure out what's causing all this trouble and that your little guy pulls through!

Personally, I wouldnt use wood anything. Even as a rack with plastic tubs.

Wood is one of the best all around bacterial breeders and it simply doesn't seem like a great idea.