Views on keeping more than one bp in an enclosure

I thought i would ask what people opinions were of keeping more than one ball in a viv. I have a male and 2 females in a viv together ( all unrelated ). They all get along well together and they all have there own personality. I feed them seperatly in a dark box and there hides are large enough for all 3 to be in at once , to eliminate the chances of compition over a hide. Just thought i would ask and see if any one else does this. Please bear in mind that they are pets and members of the family and not being bred. Although should they breed that would be an added bonus.

Absolutely no...(this is an opinion)

There's plenty to read about why not to.

Who's got the hammers? Nails? Ok, good, now, bring those two 12 X 12s over here and we'll get them attached so we can crucify this guy properly.....

Recent thread here on same topic...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...akes+enclosure

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=101096

My personal point of view is that one snake should be housed per enclosure.

If your females aren't up to weight, they will VERY POSSIBLY breed before they reach a healthy weight. This poses extreme risks for becoming eggbound among other problems that young reptile mothers encounter.

If you won't listen to the advice of people here and keep your snakes in seperate enclosures, at least remove the male to prevent that one problem from occuring.

And here you say that one of your snakes has RI:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=104619

RI is contagious among snakes. If another snake gets it, well I'd say that's another thing to show you why you shouldn't house 'em together.

Yeah this seems to happen a few times a month. Someone asks if you can keep more than one BP in an enclosure and then the two sides come out swinging. Luckily you have posted some great reasons why you should not keep your 3 snakes together so we can speak to them specifically. Your one snake had a RI. Not good to keep her with the others. Your female is 471 grams. By far too small to be bred and so should not be kept with a male. Your post stating the animals wieght is here http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...32#post1184632

In short people have successfully kept BP's together. Its my honest opinion that you should not.

whilst she had the RI she was kept in a separate viv and has now been given the all clear by the vet. when i am confident she is 100% i will be putting her back with the other 2. I check my balls religiously and have kept notes of everything not just feeding and sheding but behavour aswell . I believe i have done my homework when it comes to keeping them together and no one can actually reference any reading material as to why they should not be housed together. I have raised my concerns with them being kept together with my vet who happens to be lance jepson who is professor of exotic species in liverpool university and manchester university. look him up he knows his stuff. if at any point i believe my loved animals to be at any risk to one another they will be seperated. As money for vivs is not an issue

What about the eggbound issue? What did the doc have to say about that?

My question is why did you ask for advise if you are just going to ignore the experts.

to be honest it is an issue i overlooked. I will be bringing this up next time he is at my local surgery next week. many thanks

Generally communal housing is not recommended. Ball pythons are not social animals and gain nothing except stress from being housed together.

That being said, it is possible to house them together successfully but there are still many things that can go wrong.

Cannibalism is not unheard of.

This type of thread seems to show up about once a month or so.

It is not recommended, and is easier if one gets sick and to avoid breeding especially if you are not prepared for many baby ball pythons or a possible vet bill if the snake becomes egg bound.

Things do happen, and I just prefer to avoid the risk all-together. Plus it's easier to feed in their cages without having to move them every time.

IMO, I wouldn't keep two snakes in the same enclosure, even if they are babies. Many things could go wrong, such as:

1- The spread of disease & sickness
2- The spread of internal & external parasites
3- Stress among each other
4- Breeding/Inbreeding
5- Female becoming eggbound
6- Fighting for dominance/mates
7- Cannibalism

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Cannibalism is not unheard of.

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True. I think there are 2, count them, one and two, not three, not four, not more than 2, but 2. That I know of.

And let's talk about this crap about breeding too soon.

How many 4 egg clutches do we see pics of all the time?

We ALL know that a decent sized female, not even a huge one, can lay 7 or 8.

So, if so many are breeding when their girls can only produce half of what they will, wait for it, here it comes, WHEN THEY'RE FULLY MATURE, what is the big deal about keeping them with others? If a girl's gonna go, she's gonna go.

If she's not ready, she won't. I do not know of a single instance of a ball python dying from being accidentally bred while too young. How could she? If she's old enough to produce viable eggs, she's old enough to breed. If she's big enough to produce viable eggs, she's big enough to breed.

You people and your arbitrary use of facts to support your points of view make me laugh.

Show me some hard facts. Show me some studies that involve more than two animals. Show me anything that backs this up.

If they're healthy, if you're observant, if you're dedicated, you will have no problems keeping more than one snake in the same enclosure.

It is not recommended for the newbs, but it can be and certainly is done successfully all the time.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

True. I think there are 2, count them, one and two, not three, not four, not more than 2, but 2. That I know of.

And let's talk about this crap about breeding too soon.

How many 4 egg clutches do we see pics of all the time?

We ALL know that a decent sized female, not even a huge one, can lay 7 or 8.

So, if so many are breeding when their girls can only produce half of what they will, wait for it, here it comes, WHEN THEY'RE FULLY MATURE, what is the big deal about keeping them with others? If a girl's gonna go, she's gonna go.

If she's not ready, she won't. I do not know of a single instance of a ball python dying from being accidentally bred while too young. How could she? If she's old enough to produce viable eggs, she's old enough to breed. If she's big enough to produce viable eggs, she's big enough to breed.

You people and your arbitrary use of facts to support your points of view make me laugh.

Show me some hard facts. Show me some studies that involve more than two animals. Show me anything that backs this up.

If they're healthy, if you're observant, if you're dedicated, you will have no problems keeping more than one snake in the same enclosure.

It is not recommended for the newbs, but it can be and certainly is done successfully all the time.

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http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/e...-reptiles.html

I know of multiple cases of 12 year old girls that get pregnant (humans), I know of cats and dogs that are bred to soon and have complications. I have first hand experience dealing with horses that were bred too soon. Your argument does not make any since. Just because it happens in the wild and can happen doesn't mean it should. Animals die all the time in the wild from disease and yes complications from pregnancy. If you want to roll the dice like the animals do in the wild then fine. I would rather go with the much better odds that we get when we use that thing on top of our shoulders. What good is having this large brain that insidentely causes problems with human birth all the time if we are not going to use it.

And once again. Sure BP's can be kept together. The OP asked for the forums thoughts. Well guess what, not everyone agrees. Spread of disease, egg binding, and cannibalism are all possible. The OP has already risked the first. Is currently risking the second due to one of the females at least being under breeding weight and yes cannibalism is rare but we would be remiss not to mention it.

As for proof of the above. Its not on us to prove anything. If you disagree then fine. If you care about our opinion (the OP did ask after all) then look it up. Judge for yourself the risks. In the end we each are responsible for our own animals and no one else's.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/e...-reptiles.html

I know of multiple cases of 12 year old girls that get pregnant (humans), I know of cats and dogs that are bred to soon and have complications. I have first hand experience dealing with horses that were bred too soon. Your argument does not make any since. Just because it happens in the wild and can happen doesn't mean it should. Animals die all the time in the wild from disease and yes complications from pregnancy. If you want to roll the dice like the animals do in the wild then fine. I would rather go with the much better odds that we get when we use that thing on top of our shoulders. What good is having this large brain that insidentely causes problems with human birth all the time if we are not going to use it.

And once again. Sure BP's can be kept together. The OP asked for the forums thoughts. Well guess what, not everyone agrees. Spread of disease, egg binding, and cannibalism are all possible. The OP has already risked the first. Is currently risking the second due to one of the females at least being under breeding weight and yes cannibalism is rare but we would be remiss not to mention it.

As for proof of the above. Its not on us to prove anything. If you disagree then fine. If you care about our opinion (the OP did ask after all) then look it up. Judge for yourself the risks. In the end we each are responsible for our own animals and no one else's.

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And fish swim and birds fly.

Why do people always throw up comparisons with mammals when talking about reptile reproduction?

There is NO denying that early pregnancy in mammals can be detrimental to the female. But, and here's a key point you seem to have missed, we are NOT discussing mammals.

Reptiles do things a tad differently, especially the egg layers.

IF a female can lay viable 2 viable eggs and have no ill effects from it, is that not a successful breeding? It may not bring the owner as much profit as a 6 or 12 egg clutch, but if there is no difference in the females after laying, why is it better to have large clutches?

I'm not advocating breeding small or young females. I am saying that IF the female produces viable ova, is fertilized and then lays good eggs, how is this wrong? No one gave her hormone treatments. No one forced her to produce ova. She did it because she was ready to.

Otherwise, she would not have produced ova.

Opinions are fine, but lets try to be factual and species specific, not emotional and anthropomorphic.

EGGBOUND

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...light=eggbound

This is why we should not breed until they/us are ready. I'm sure there are eggbound deaths in the wild also, even if a snake is sexually mature. There is also diseases spread also increasing the chance of deaths. I however, care more about mine, and don't want them to be another statistic. Just because "it's the way they do it in the wild" does not mean it is the way we should do it. Well, it's not the way i'm going to do it.

Not only that, but is the poster prepared for eggs, is he (i apologize if you are a girl) ready for them to be dropped any day? Incubator or natural icubation? What about the other snakes? He does realize if they are turned by the other snakes the baby will die in the egg?

Truthfully, I would trust anyone on here with experience in rasing balls, than anyone with a college degree (or book smarts).

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

IMO, I wouldn't keep two snakes in the same enclosure, even if they are babies. Many things could go wrong, such as:

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I agree that a keeper who is not attentive and who is inexperienced should definately not keep two snakes together.

That, however, is a commentary on the skill level of the keeper - not on whether or not this is a bad or unsafe practice.

The things you state as risks really aren't if the keeper utilizes good husbandry practices and common sense.

Quote:

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1- The spread of disease & sickness

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Make sure your snakes are healthy before you cohabitate them. Seems like common sense to me.

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2- The spread of internal & external parasites

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See (1) above.

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3- Stress among each other

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Provide multiple hides, multiple basking spots and a large enough enclosure to accomodate them.

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4- Breeding/Inbreeding

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Inbreeding - Don't house siblings together.
Breeding - Separate them when they come into season. I can tell when my female snakes are ripening, can you?

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5- Female becoming eggbound

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They can also become egg bound during normal breeding. Also, how many people have actually had an egg bound snake? How about an egg-bound snake caused by breeding it too young?

See answer to (4) above.

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6- Fighting for dominance/mates

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Are you serious? Ever seen this in ball pythons?

We're talking about snakes, not bighorn sheep or wolves. Show me one instance of dominant behavior in ball pythons.

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7- Cannibalism

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Feed your snakes regularly. Again, has anyone on this forum ever personally witnessed cannibalism between two well fed similarly sized ball pythons?

Didn't think so.

Opinions are fine. However opinions based on speculation and second or third hand rumors aren't really opinions.

It would be more accurate to warn a new owner that cohabitating snakes can be done very successfully, but is generally not recommended for new comers because it requires a considerable level of husbandry skill and experience.

Saying that it can't be done and listing a bunch of easily avoided BS second hand information isn't posting an opinion - it's regurgitating bad advice and spreading disinformation.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html

YouTube - Ball Python Combat

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html

YouTube - Ball Python Combat

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Anyone with the brains of a gnat, which I am assuming we all have at the minimum, would see that and say to themselves, "Hey, I have 2 males in there. I better separate them."

If that was your point, well done.

If you were trying to make some other point, one of us would be sorely embarrassed by the average gnat.

Here's my take on it. Obviously there are people who communally house ball pythons and do so quite successfully. Those are the types of keepers who Craig (skiploder) and Wes are most likely referring to (not trying to put words in either of their mouths).

Where problems arise, and why as a general guideline for new keepers, we recommend individual housing - is that there are many keepers who communally house as a financial short cut.

Their need for immediate gratification to add a new animal outweighs the financial decision to properly set up a quarantine tub, etc and they go out and they buy a new snake and just add it to the tank/enclosure that their established snake/snakes are already kept. THAT's where problems can and do often happen.

The point that both Craig and Wes are trying to make is that we can't and SHOULDN'T make sweeping generalizations, especially regurgitated generalizations.

However, I do agree that someone asking if they can house two animals together as a financial shortcut should probably be encouraged to re-think their decisions - as I do believe that a new keeper does not have the experience under their belts yet to be able to read their animals and the subtle cues that there may be a problem.

It's in the best interest of our ball pythons to HIDE their illnesses as long as they can before they start to show symptoms - survival of the fittest (drooling for example in RI's) that a newer keeper FIRST notices, whereas a more experienced keeper may notice a difference in how an animal is behaving, or "slime trails" on the tub/tank when they are doing routine maintenance that would allow them to catch a problem sooner.

So - if someone is asking can they house together, because they don't have enough money to get another enclosure, that means that they don't have enough money to properly QT a new animal, and I personally would discourage it.

Boy - I took a left turn down ramble somewhere - so I'll end it here!

Alright.

90% of the people who post questions on this forum are new to keeping ball pythons.

That being said, the information "regurgitated" is reflective of the original posters experience level.

If it was easy to house ball pythons together, then we would tell people to go for it. We don't because for the most part, newbies have no clue. The setups are usually wrong and they don't understand their snakes yet. Many of them don't know the signs of problems. Most people think that a cruising snake is a happy snake. Most people think that when the snakes are laying on top of each other they are "cuddling". Some people won't even notice if their snake is showing signs of an RI.

Now if someone came on here and said "hey I have been keeping ball pythons for a while and I really want to try cohabitation them. I think I know enough about these animals to pull it off". More power to this person.

It really just comes down to the people we are providing information for. This is generally a beginner forum and cohabitation isn't really a beginner subject. If anything this should go in "advanced husbandry".

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

It really just comes down to the people we are providing information for. This is generally a beginner forum and cohabitation isn't really a beginner subject. If anything this should go in "advanced husbandry".

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So, a newbie couldn't handle this information? They don't deserve this information? Is there some sort of time limit or number of snakes you need to keep as individuals before you get this information?

Oh yeah, who gets to decide who gets this information and when they get it?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, a newbie couldn't handle this information? They don't deserve this information? Is there some sort of time limit or number of snakes you need to keep as individuals before you get this information?

Oh yeah, who gets to decide who gets this information and when they get it?

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There is no almighty being that says "okay you know enough now".

That is up to the keeper to decide.

If they really want the information, they will know what questions to ask in order to get it. You surely haven't provided any helpful information that would help this user to better cohabitate their snakes.

Personally, I don't know enough to keep multiple snakes in an enclosure and I won't ever try it.

You really do have to give the op some credit tho. It seams his cage is adequate size, and plenty of space to thermo regulate. They are also eating regularly, and not each other.

My only concern is the welfare of the female, and the pregnancy issue. She could probably carry a few eggs without problem. Like wilomn said, it's not always in our best interest to have big females, to get the most out of her. But, does the female get to choose how many eggs she has? Or how big those eggs are? I'm being serious, not trying to be a smart butt.

Is the weight of a female always going to determine the amount of eggs she has? Do most breeders wait for them to get big for the sole purpose of having as many eggs as possible? If it is true she is in no danger if she is bred (as well as the hatchlings), then there cohabitation is probably ok. However, there are still some questions the op should consider.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Not only that, but is the poster prepared for eggs, is he (i apologize if you are a girl) ready for them to be dropped any day? Incubator or natural icubation? What about the other snakes? He does realize if they are turned by the other snakes the baby will die in the egg?

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Isn't there a member on this site (Tim Murdoc.. I THINK) that is proving this isn't really true?

I remember seeing threads about it but haven't kept up with it.

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Originally Posted by Buttons

Isn't there a member on this site (Tim Murdoc.. I THINK) that is proving this isn't really true?

I remember seeing threads about it but haven't kept up with it.

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Really? I didn't know that. I'll see if I can't check up on it though. I think balls are still fairly new to being kept as pets, there will be a lot of things that turn out to be false statements.

I think most of us don't want to be that person to prove the other wrong. It's the same as the bedding issue with pine and cedar. Are there any real true facts that it has affected a balls well being?

There's a word for these kind of people, but I don't know what it is. I just stick to the "normal" way. I know it works, and it's the safe way of doing things. Much like people who always wear their seatbelts, and hate roller coasters. :)

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Personally, I don't know enough to keep multiple snakes in an enclosure and I won't ever try it.

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Let's forget about ball pythons for a sec and talk about snakes in general.....

Until the internet got hot, I never heard of any problems with (or had any problems with) housing large drys together. I have always kept 1.2 trios, 1.1 pairz and two females together - always of similar size (I'll admit I've never kept two males together).

I'm always sure to provide them with large cages, multiple hides and large thermoregulation zones and there are certain protocols to follow when feeding them.

I'm talking years with these animals. I always make sure they are fed and have plenty of space and I have never had one single problem.

Now I go onto websites and hear about people warning not to do this with cribos and indigos because they'll cannibalize each other, they'll egg bind and stress each other out.

I converse on a fairly regular basis with some old school dry breeders who have followed similar practices and never had an issue - so where is all of this contrary information coming from?

Now let's go back to balls. Yes, for the average person keeping his balls in a blanket box rack, co-habitating makes no sense. While I am not big into regius, I know plenty of people who successfully cohabitate their balls in adequately sizes enclosures with no issues.

Let's try this: instead of everyone saying that it can't work, how about offering advice to the OP in case he wants to make it work?

1. You need an adequately sized cage.

2. Keeping 2 males together is not the best idea. 1.1 pairs or 0.2 pairs work best.

3. Multiple hides are needed, along with thermoregulation zones big enough to accomodate the number of snakes you are keeping together.

4. Only house healthy snakes together that have been through quarantine and are disease free.

5. Make sure to follow safety protocols when feeding.

There are more but you get the idea.

It's better to say it can work under the right conditions than to say it's a bad idea, or that it can't be done, or even shouldn't be done.


Just because you don't know enough to house multiple snake together doesn't mean that someone who wants to try it should be denied the information required to attempt it - right?

It shouldnt be an issue if the cage is large enough and you dont have mixed sexes... But It would be better if you didnt due to stress. But like I said If it is large enough and I mena large, then I dont see why not.

I agree with you.

I don't house my snakes together so I don't know what they need to live healthily together. You have kept snakes together and you do know.

I know the "risks" associated with keeping ball pythons together so that is the information I provided. I understand many of these "risks" are just scare tactics.

So I should have said something like. "Yes you can keep ball pythons together but I have never done it so I don't have any information that can help you. I think it is healthier to house my snakes separately"

It takes a lot of money and time to set up a big enclosure like that and to keep it properly heated. It is a big project, much bigger than putting a snake in a tub. Some people, like Robin said, are really just looking for a way to cut costs, and putting multiple snakes in an enclosure would increase costs, in my opinion.

I am not denying anyone information, I just simply don't know how to properly house snakes together since I have never done it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Anyone with the brains of a gnat, which I am assuming we all have at the minimum, would see that and say to themselves, "Hey, I have 2 males in there. I better separate them."

If that was your point, well done.

If you were trying to make some other point, one of us would be sorely embarrassed by the average gnat.

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I'm sorry, but i have embarrassed the gnat. Nobody sees this as a problem with housing more than one snake together? Maybe they didn't grow up together, and that's why they are fighting.

How do you know they are two males?

I guess we should just thing this is an isolated incident, and let it be right?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And fish swim and birds fly.

Why do people always throw up comparisons with mammals when talking about reptile reproduction?

There is NO denying that early pregnancy in mammals can be detrimental to the female. But, and here's a key point you seem to have missed, we are NOT discussing mammals.

Reptiles do things a tad differently, especially the egg layers.

IF a female can lay viable 2 viable eggs and have no ill effects from it, is that not a successful breeding? It may not bring the owner as much profit as a 6 or 12 egg clutch, but if there is no difference in the females after laying, why is it better to have large clutches?

I'm not advocating breeding small or young females. I am saying that IF the female produces viable ova, is fertilized and then lays good eggs, how is this wrong? No one gave her hormone treatments. No one forced her to produce ova. She did it because she was ready to.

Otherwise, she would not have produced ova.

Opinions are fine, but lets try to be factual and species specific, not emotional and anthropomorphic.

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Well I am assuming your first question was rhetorical but I will answer it. People compare to reptiles to mammals because as humans we have a vastly greater experience dealing with mammals when compared to reptiles.

The fact that we are discussing reptiles was not lost on me. In fact I opened my post with a link to an article on egg binding. You neglected to make any comments referencing the topic. What are your thoughts on egg binding?

You then go on to lay out a scenario with lots of IF's. IF all of your presumptions are true I would agree with you. Are you so confident that there is no risk associated with young and/or underweight breeding, and no long lasting effects, that you would recommend others breed young and/or under weight females?

If you wouldn't recommend you breed these animals then how can you in good conscience recommend that someone house a male and female together.

Too often people take a recommendation of one snake per enclosure as a call to arms.

Lets keep our eye on the ball. The OP did not ask for advice on how to house two BP's together. The question was what are our opinions. My opinion is that if you have to ask you should not do it. I am not a big fan of scare tactics or mis leading information but you can't responsibly just say that eggbinding, spread of disease, stress, and cannibalism are nothing to worry about.

If a 16 year old straight male comes up to me and says, "Hey what are your thoughts on unprotected sex?" Would I be a responsible 30 year old man if I said "Good times, the chances of you knocking up someone on your first try are pretty slim. The chances of you catching a disease at your age are pretty slim also if you don't pick a dirty girl" then I can go on to tell them about my personal experience "I have had lots of unprotected sex and never caught a disease and a good friend of mine has been trying to get pregnant for 6 months with no luck." If a kid asked me specific questions then of course I would give specific answers, but when the question is general the person is generally looking for advice. So again my advice is not to keep your snakes together.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I'm sorry, but i have embarrassed the gnat. Nobody sees this as a problem with housing more than one snake together? Maybe they didn't grow up together, and that's why they are fighting.

How do you know they are two males?

I guess we should just thing this is an isolated incident, and let it be right?

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I'll go out on the limb here.

As a witness to many hundreds if not thousands of combat dances between male snakes of many species I feel qualified to state that the snakes in the video are males combatting for a female that may not even be there. It's classic.

Based on that I made the statements I did.

Gnats must be getting smarter.

Oh. I thought it said somewhere, and I missed it. :oops:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Let's forget about ball pythons for a sec and talk about snakes in general.....

Until the internet got hot, I never heard of any problems with (or had any problems with) housing large drys together. I have always kept 1.2 trios, 1.1 pairz and two females together - always of similar size (I'll admit I've never kept two males together).

I'm always sure to provide them with large cages, multiple hides and large thermoregulation zones and there are certain protocols to follow when feeding them.

I'm talking years with these animals. I always make sure they are fed and have plenty of space and I have never had one single problem.

Now I go onto websites and hear about people warning not to do this with cribos and indigos because they'll cannibalize each other, they'll egg bind and stress each other out.

I converse on a fairly regular basis with some old school dry breeders who have followed similar practices and never had an issue - so where is all of this contrary information coming from?

Now let's go back to balls. Yes, for the average person keeping his balls in a blanket box rack, co-habitating makes no sense. While I am not big into regius, I know plenty of people who successfully cohabitate their balls in adequately sizes enclosures with no issues.

Let's try this: instead of everyone saying that it can't work, how about offering advice to the OP in case he wants to make it work?

1. You need an adequately sized cage.

2. Keeping 2 males together is not the best idea. 1.1 pairs or 0.2 pairs work best.

3. Multiple hides are needed, along with thermoregulation zones big enough to accomodate the number of snakes you are keeping together.

4. Only house healthy snakes together that have been through quarantine and are disease free.

5. Make sure to follow safety protocols when feeding.

There are more but you get the idea.

It's better to say it can work under the right conditions than to say it's a bad idea, or that it can't be done, or even shouldn't be done.


Just because you don't know enough to house multiple snake together doesn't mean that someone who wants to try it should be denied the information required to attempt it - right?

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This post is a great example of what I was saying about an irresponsible answer to a question that was not asked. The OP asked for our opinions on keeping BP's together not the best way to do it. Even if the OP had asked how to do it. You are extremely vague.

So I am your average Joe and I have read 5 or 6 posts. I have my 20 gallon long, cause thats all you need for an adult so I got point 1 down. I have 1 male and 2 females all around 700 grams so I got point 2 down. Sure I got a temp gradient and few hides so I can check 3 off. The snakes look fine and I kept them apart for a week or so all set for 4. I always where gloves when I feed so all set with point 5. Yeah I get the idea alright.

On top of all that your arguments are not logical. Until the internet got hot I didn't know about a lot of things. For instance I have been "undercooking" pork for years with no problems. Never heard of anyone having problems eating under cooked pork. I have been drinking the water from local streams and never had a problem. Not a single bit of that is relevant if I am asked how to cook pork or what my thoughts are on drinking unfiltered stream water. Now I go online and I find lots of cases of people who live in other countries with less regulation on their food getting very ill or dieing from eating undercooked pork. Drinking the local water can also kill you depending on where "local" is. So my thoughts are that pork should be well done and you should not drink unfiltered water.

Back to snakes. Neither of our personal experiences are good foundations for advice. I have too little and you have too much. This is why things get regurgitated as you put it. The regurgitated advice is the safest advice.

My canned reply on this is below here.

I don't really see any need to house BPs together, except very temporarily during breeding season. Can a keeper with experience do what he pleases with his animals? sure. But i wouldn't reccomend a newer keeper do it just because they can. I think that Rabernet actually said it best anyway.

MY opinion on the matter is, if i can't provide an animal with safe, secure housing that meets the requirements for the species, then i can't own that animal until i do. and with MY guidelines on the matter, every BP -i- own gets its own house.

does that cover the topic?

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To quote another post on the exact same topic (PS: search feature is your friend). Take this post with a grain of salt, but please understand why it is better for your animals to each have a home, than to have to share one. (This post was also made for someone who was already housing animals together).

NO, you should not.

it is NOT good for the animals to be housed together. There are a multitude of reasons for this, including but not limited to the following;

1. You didnt quarantine your new addition and if its carrying something, chances are your older animal has it too anything from parasites, worms, sickness and disease, (even if there arent any symptoms yet)

2. Did you get these animals sexed from a reliable source? Or are you trusting the pet store.. This means you could have two opposite genders and you have the chance that they could now breed early causing the female (if one is a female) problems and possibly killing her

3. Cannibalism is known to occur in a few documented cases involving BPs

4. If one of your animals is sick, you probably wont know which one because you cant tell their feces/urates/regurges apart

5. If one gets sick, they both get sick and now you have to spend 2x the amount of money in vet care.

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake dominating the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels.

housing two animals in one enclosure when they arent social isnt something novice keepers should do. Each animal should have their own space to thrive. If cost is the problem then maybe you need to take one back or rehome him until you can provide a sutible environment for any animal that comes into your home.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Well I am assuming your first question was rhetorical but I will answer it. People compare to reptiles to mammals because as humans we have a vastly greater experience dealing with mammals when compared to reptiles.

The fact that we are discussing reptiles was not lost on me. In fact I opened my post with a link to an article on egg binding. You neglected to make any comments referencing the topic. What are your thoughts on egg binding?

You then go on to lay out a scenario with lots of IF's. IF all of your presumptions are true I would agree with you. Are you so confident that there is no risk associated with young and/or underweight breeding, and no long lasting effects, that you would recommend others breed young and/or under weight females?

If you wouldn't recommend you breed these animals then how can you in good conscience recommend that someone house a male and female together.

Too often people take a recommendation of one snake per enclosure as a call to arms.

Lets keep our eye on the ball. The OP did not ask for advice on how to house two BP's together. The question was what are our opinions. My opinion is that if you have to ask you should not do it. I am not a big fan of scare tactics or mis leading information but you can't responsibly just say that eggbinding, spread of disease, stress, and cannibalism are nothing to worry about.

If a 16 year old straight male comes up to me and says, "Hey what are your thoughts on unprotected sex?" Would I be a responsible 30 year old man if I said "Good times, the chances of you knocking up someone on your first try are pretty slim. The chances of you catching a disease at your age are pretty slim also if you don't pick a dirty girl" then I can go on to tell them about my personal experience "I have had lots of unprotected sex and never caught a disease and a good friend of mine has been trying to get pregnant for 6 months with no luck." If a kid asked me specific questions then of course I would give specific answers, but when the question is general the person is generally looking for advice. So again my advice is not to keep your snakes together.

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Why do you keep making comparisons that have nothing to do with keeping more than one snake in an enclosure?

You've covered underage pregnancy, undercooked pork, horse sex, dog sex, drinking from streams and unprotected sex.................

The OP asked for opinions. He got a bunch of opinions - many backed up with crap and BS. Those opinions have been reacted to. Deal with it.

The point is, people cohabitate snakes (even ball pythons) all the time. Some people do it right and some people do it wrong. It's not impossible to do it and it should not be considered a husbandry no-no if done correctly.

Regurgitated advice is just that - puke. Opinions based on experience or fact hold value.

I'll agree with one thing you said - your experience in this matter is not a foundation for good advice.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Let's forget about ball pythons for a sec and talk about snakes in general.....

Until the internet got hot, I never heard of any problems with (or had any problems with) housing large drys together. I have always kept 1.2 trios, 1.1 pairz and two females together - always of similar size (I'll admit I've never kept two males together).

I'm always sure to provide them with large cages, multiple hides and large thermoregulation zones and there are certain protocols to follow when feeding them.

I'm talking years with these animals. I always make sure they are fed and have plenty of space and I have never had one single problem.

Now I go onto websites and hear about people warning not to do this with cribos and indigos because they'll cannibalize each other, they'll egg bind and stress each other out.

I converse on a fairly regular basis with some old school dry breeders who have followed similar practices and never had an issue - so where is all of this contrary information coming from?

Now let's go back to balls. Yes, for the average person keeping his balls in a blanket box rack, co-habitating makes no sense. While I am not big into regius, I know plenty of people who successfully cohabitate their balls in adequately sizes enclosures with no issues.

Let's try this: instead of everyone saying that it can't work, how about offering advice to the OP in case he wants to make it work?

1. You need an adequately sized cage.

2. Keeping 2 males together is not the best idea. 1.1 pairs or 0.2 pairs work best.

3. Multiple hides are needed, along with thermoregulation zones big enough to accomodate the number of snakes you are keeping together.

4. Only house healthy snakes together that have been through quarantine and are disease free.

5. Make sure to follow safety protocols when feeding.

There are more but you get the idea.

It's better to say it can work under the right conditions than to say it's a bad idea, or that it can't be done, or even shouldn't be done.


Just because you don't know enough to house multiple snake together doesn't mean that someone who wants to try it should be denied the information required to attempt it - right?

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I think this is the best post on this thread I've read so far.

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Just because you don't know enough to house multiple snake together doesn't mean that someone who wants to try it should be denied the information required to attempt it - right?

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I completely agree on this. If the OP wants to try out having more than one snake in the enclosure, the OP should go ahead and do it. But, if the OP needs some help, I think the people who KNOW what they're talking about should help the OP out. Skiploder made a GREAT point, and says that he had no problem at all with housing 1.1 or 1.2 snakes in one enclosure. That being said, not ALL snakes will do horribly if housed in an enclosure with another snake or two. The snakes housed together just need a larger space to house all of them together and have enough space so no fights happen for territory/dominance/mates.

If the OP wants to house the snakes together, I would just try out having two females together, first. I haven't heard anything bad happening between females (fights), so maybe starting out with two females would be best. I'm not experienced with housing more than one snakes in an enclosure, but maybe sometime in the future I'd want to try it out and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake dominating the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels.

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Are you sure about this?

Snakes seen as cuddling are likely to be sharing a prime thermoregulation or hide spot.

I have yet to see a study or witness actual behavior in which this is a case of one snake "dominating" the other.

Seriously - I've seen this behavior off and on for years. My bt cribo pair does it and they've been together for years. They eat, shed, crap, and make whoopee just fine. I'm just wondering where someone saw two snakes coiling together and ASSumed that it was some sort of dominance display.

Again - if you can drudge up a study or something based in fact that proves that this is a dominance display, I'll cheerfully agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Are you sure about this?

Snakes seen as cuddling are likely to be sharing a prime thermoregulation or hide spot.

I have yet to see a study or witness actual behavior in which this is a case of one snake "dominating" the other.

Seriously - I've seen this behavior off and on for years. My bt cribo pair does it and they've been together for years. They eat, shed, crap, and make whoopee just fine. I'm just wondering where someone saw two snakes coiling together and ASSumed that it was some sort of dominance display.

Again - if you can drudge up a study or something based in fact that proves that this is a dominance display, I'll cheerfully agree with you.

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She wrote a book on keeping ball pythons, she MUST know what she's talking about.....

:weirdface

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Are you sure about this?

Snakes seen as cuddling are likely to be sharing a prime thermoregulation or hide spot.

I have yet to see a study or witness actual behavior in which this is a case of one snake "dominating" the other.

Seriously - I've seen this behavior off and on for years. My bt cribo pair does it and they've been together for years. They eat, shed, crap, and make whoopee just fine. I'm just wondering where someone saw two snakes coiling together and ASSumed that it was some sort of dominance display.

Again - if you can drudge up a study or something based in fact that proves that this is a dominance display, I'll cheerfully agree with you.

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This is what I've heard it referred to as MANY times,especially on this forum (dominance) if it is actually competition (and i will do more research on that) I'll change it, for now I'll add to the canned reply. Thank you for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Buttons

She wrote a book on keeping ball pythons, she MUST know what she's talking about.....

:weirdface

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There is always room for improvement. :)

How do all the people here that say they should not be keep together and are not sociable deal with the fact that there are a lot of articles and stories of many balls being found in the same burrows. I saw one the other day talking about a female with eggs and a hand full of males all in the same hole.

i dont do it because:
then i dont have to separate them to feed

i can keep track of a snake that is not drinking

if one should happen to regurge i only have to worry about one snake and not which one was it.

so i dont have poo smeared everywhere

so if i have a runny poo in there i know what snake it came from

i really have many reasons, you guys do what you want im going to keep mine separate.

I see that there are good points to keeping them separate. I just dont under stand the people that say "you should not do this because, it stresses the snake, cannibalism....." Does any one really know how many cases there have been of cannibalism in a captive setting where both snakes where being feed well? I bet there are more cases of them found living together in the wild then there are of them eating each other in captivity.

Like some one said in an other post the OP asked for views on keeping them together. I think if care is taken in setting things up right it is really up the the owner. If you find some runny poo but one in a QT and see which one is sick. Keeping them together is prob more work, but is some one is willing to put in the time to make a nice home I say more power to them. I think that is better then the people who put them in a tube with paper bedding because it is easier for the owner. My snakes will have plenty of places to hide and plenty of places to crawl around if they please and they will be in the same display tank. I also plan on having a QT standing by if I need it.

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Originally Posted by ckwatson

I see that there are good points to keeping them separate. I just dont under stand the people that say "you should not do this because, it stresses the snake, cannibalism....." Does any one really know how many cases there have been of cannibalism in a captive setting where both snakes where being feed well? I bet there are more cases of them found living together in the wild then there are of them eating each other in captivity.

Like some one said in an other post the OP asked for views on keeping them together. I think if care is taken in setting things up right it is really up the the owner. If you find some runny poo but one in a QT and see which one is sick. Keeping them together is prob more work, but is some one is willing to put in the time to make a nice home I say more power to them. I think that is better then the people who put them in a tube with paper bedding because it is easier for the owner. My snakes will have plenty of places to hide and plenty of places to crawl around if they please and they will be in the same display tank. I also plan on having a QT standing by if I need it.

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you will not find many reports of cannibalism heck many ppl dont even take their snakes to a vet if something is wrong with them.
just because multiple snakes are found in in the same burrow does not mean they went there because of the other snakes. perhaps the place in the burrow is the only place that has the correct temps and humidity for those animals. not to mention that alot of the videos you see are taken during breeding season.

Qt after the fact does not mean that the other one does not have something wrong with it also.
ppl use tubs because its the easier to keep, clean, saves on space. there is many reasons really. are you sure your snakes want to travel around? are you sure they dont prefer to be alone? are you sure they are not fighting for the same heat zone?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why do you keep making comparisons that have nothing to do with keeping more than one snake in an enclosure?

You've covered underage pregnancy, undercooked pork, horse sex, dog sex, drinking from streams and unprotected sex.................

The OP asked for opinions. He got a bunch of opinions - many backed up with crap and BS. Those opinions have been reacted to. Deal with it.

The point is, people cohabitate snakes (even ball pythons) all the time. Some people do it right and some people do it wrong. It's not impossible to do it and it should not be considered a husbandry no-no if done correctly.

Regurgitated advice is just that - puke. Opinions based on experience or fact hold value.

I'll agree with one thing you said - your experience in this matter is not a foundation for good advice.

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See what I am doing there is called an analogy. People sometimes use them when the people they are talking to are not understanding the concepts being presented. For instance you seam to know quite a lot about BP husbandry but seam to be missing my point.

Besides, I figured everyone else was doing it why not me. My comparisons to all of the above are about as relevent to the conversation as all the "well they do it in the wild posts." I never said that its impossible to do it, or that its considered a husbandry no-no and for that matter most people aren't saying that. You are hearing that. What I and many others are saying is that there are negative consequences that should be considered. I think its irresponsible for people to gloss over the difficulties. You keep saying things like "its fine if done correctly." Well lots of things are fine if done correctly, that doesn't mean we should recommend it. I could be wrong hear but I don't think the OP wanted to start a war. So skiploder, what are your thoughts on housing BP's together and more specifically what advice would you give our OP.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

See what I am doing there is called an analogy. People sometimes use them when the people they are talking to are not understanding the concepts being presented. For instance you seam to know quite a lot about BP husbandry but seam to be missing my point.

Besides, I figured everyone else was doing it why not me. My comparisons to all of the above are about as relevent to the conversation as all the "well they do it in the wild posts." I never said that its impossible to do it, or that its considered a husbandry no-no and for that matter most people aren't saying that. You are hearing that. What I and many others are saying is that there are negative consequences that should be considered. I think its irresponsible for people to gloss over the difficulties. You keep saying things like "its fine if done correctly." Well lots of things are fine if done correctly, that doesn't mean we should recommend it. I could be wrong hear but I don't think the OP wanted to start a war. So skiploder, what are your thoughts on housing BP's together and more specifically what advice would you give our OP.

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When did any of this become about you? Do you seriously think that you're the only person on this forum that is taking part in this debate?

All I'm hearing is that there are people chiming in here that are claiming you can't or shouldn't do something that not only is commonly done, but successfully done to boot.

If the OP wants my advice, he can ask for it. In the meantime, all your babbling still doesn't change one fundamental fact - the fact we're all debating here:

You CAN keep more than one snake in an enclosure.

Just because someone hasn't done it, or hasn't been exposed to it doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ckwatson

I see that there are good points to keeping them separate. I just don't under stand the people that say "you should not do this because, it stresses the snake, cannibalism....." Does any one really know how many cases there have been of cannibalism in a captive setting where both snakes where being feed well? I bet there are more cases of them found living together in the wild then there are of them eating each other in captivity.

Like some one said in an other post the OP asked for views on keeping them together. I think if care is taken in setting things up right it is really up the the owner. If you find some runny poo but one in a QT and see which one is sick. Keeping them together is prob more work, but is some one is willing to put in the time to make a nice home I say more power to them. I think that is better then the people who put them in a tube with paper bedding because it is easier for the owner. My snakes will have plenty of places to hide and plenty of places to crawl around if they please and they will be in the same display tank. I also plan on having a QT standing by if I need it.

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This a very good point, especially with the video we just seen. However, we have to remember, our snakes are not in the wild. They don't have the option of when they are tired of their buddy, to leave. We honestly don't know enough about the subject to go either way. Maybe they only stay with others during breeding season. There are just too many "ifs" involved to make any solid statement.

That's why i do what i know. I know when kept separate it's easier to notice illnesses, clean, as well as feed (for those of us who wish not to disturb the snake during feeding process).

Until anyone can show me how the snake (not us) gains an advantage over having a cage partner, separate is how I feel it should be done. Of course, I'm just as stubborn as the rest of you, and refuse to do it differently :P.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

When did any of this become about you? Do you seriously think that you're the only person on this forum that is taking part in this debate?

All I'm hearing is that there are people chiming in here that are claiming you can't or shouldn't do something that not only is commonly done, but successfully done to boot.

If the OP wants my advice, he can ask for it. In the meantime, all your babbling still doesn't change one fundamental fact - the fact we're all debating here:

You CAN keep more than one snake in an enclosure.

Just because someone hasn't done it, or hasn't been exposed to it doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done.

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Are you kidding me. Non of this is about me. The OP asked for your opinion. Lets me be really clear. I agree, You CAN keep more than one snake in an enclosure. You can do it successfully. The OP asked for your opinion on the practice. All my babbling as you called it, is related to my opinion on the practice.