Bee x Bee

What are the resaults of breeding a male Bee to a female Bee?

You wont know for sure til you breed.
But what you can get are these
bumbles,killerbees,pastels,normals, and spiders:)

Potential results:

normals
pastels
spiders
super-pastels
bees
killer-bees

So far as I've ever heard, there are no super-spiders...so that particular genetic trait and combos with it are not included on the list.

Also, just adding on, just because there isnt one yet, doesnt mean that there isnt a super spider. Mainly because not many people want to waist a breeder sized spider female on another spider, I personally would want to go for a proved combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Also, just adding on, just because there isnt one yet, doesnt mean that there isnt a super spider. Mainly because not many people want to waist a breeder sized spider female on another spider, I personally would want to go for a proved combo.

---

Have fun trying to tell with one is the super.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Also, just adding on, just because there isnt one yet, doesnt mean that there isnt a super spider. Mainly because not many people want to waist a breeder sized spider female on another spider, I personally would want to go for a proved combo.

---

I thought that there was a big thread on super spiders. If I'm not mistaken, the super spider dies in the egg or shortly after hatching. Right?

Also, it is possible (though not definitively proven) that the homozygous ("super") spider is actually lethal (dies in the egg, or gets reabsorbed, or what have you). If that turns out to be true, then, in theory, any spider x spider breeding may produce 25% fewer eggs than that female would be otherwise capable of producing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

Have fun trying to tell with one is the super.

---

... And this is why I wouldn't want to do a spider x spider breeding, even if it isn't homozygous lethal. Those homozygous spiders may be extremely valuable genetically, but not if you can't tell 'em apart!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twistedtails

I thought that there was a big thread on super spiders. If I'm not mistaken, the super spider dies in the egg or shortly after hatching. Right?

---

Correct it is a lethal gene that we know so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

Have fun trying to tell with one is the super.

---

Exactly my point;) Who knows though, BHB I think is the one who may or may not have a super pinstripe, but I have not heard any updates yet on that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Exactly my point;) Who knows though, BHB I think is the one who may or may not have a super pinstripe, but I have not heard any updates yet on that.

---

A super Pin would be a great animal to have around! Does anyone know anything more about this? Or is it an elusive myth like the Super spider thats is out there somewhere..?

Right now it's only speculation, I've yet to come across a thread where someone definitely bred spider x spider more than once with consistent/telling results. It's a project I intend to persue if only to better understand it.

I thought killer bees were super pastel X bumblebee?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jenn

I thought killer bees were super pastel X bumblebee?

---

Killer Bee is a Super Pastel Spider.

The SIMPLEST way it can be produced is: Bumble Bee (Pastel Spider) x Pastel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cornball252

Correct it is a lethal gene that we know so far.

---

Where did you actually see this proven? I've read a ton of stuff and its all speculation, not proven fact.

Got ya. Thanks.

Its never going to be "fact" that spider is lethal because unlike the pearl (super woma) or super jag carpet python, it doesn't hatch and die after, it dies before (or so we think). its just accepted because so when spider gene first came out, naturally you would see if it had a super form, after so many breedings people never had a super or a proven homozygous spider. so we can only assume. Go ahead and try it, if you have different results let us know and prove the world wrong.

as for the pin, its proven it has a homozygous form, but it looks exactly the same. so you breed a pin to a pin and you would get 25% normal 50% het pin 25% homozygous pin. but you can't tell the pins apart, so i would assume everyone would call them 33% homozygous pins or you could call them 66% hets also, but i think 33% homo sounds better lol. never seen them marketed tho.

Quick 'n' Dirty Punnet Square:

3/16 killer bee.
6/16 bee.
3/16 spider.
1/16 super pastel.
2/16 pastel.
1/16 normal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Its never going to be "fact" that spider is lethal because unlike the pearl (super woma) or super jag carpet python, it doesn't hatch and die after, it dies before (or so we think). its just accepted because so when spider gene first came out, naturally you would see if it had a super form, after so many breedings people never had a super or a proven homozygous spider. so we can only assume. Go ahead and try it, if you have different results let us know and prove the world wrong.

as for the pin, its proven it has a homozygous form, but it looks exactly the same. so you breed a pin to a pin and you would get 25% normal 50% het pin 25% homozygous pin. but you can't tell the pins apart, so i would assume everyone would call them 33% homozygous pins or you could call them 66% hets also, but i think 33% homo sounds better lol. never seen them marketed tho.

---

You are saying that a norm can be het for pin? Has it been done where a assumed normal het pin has been bred to another normal and produced a pin?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kryptonian

You are saying that a norm can be het for pin? Has it been done where a assumed normal het pin has been bred to another normal and produced a pin?

---

No....his turn of phrase "het pin" means that a typical pinstripe animal with one pin gene and one normal gene on that allele. The term "heterozygous" means that the allele has one morph gene and one normal...whether that causes a visual morph or not. The term "het" is usually used for recessive morphs, but can apply to dominant/co-dominate animals as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

as for the pin, its proven it has a homozygous form, but it looks exactly the same. so you breed a pin to a pin and you would get 25% normal 50% het pin 25% homozygous pin. but you can't tell the pins apart, so i would assume everyone would call them 33% homozygous pins or you could call them 66% hets also, but i think 33% homo sounds better lol. never seen them marketed tho.

---

I'm interested to see where you saw that the Pin has a proven homo form. I've not read or heard anything other than speculation that BHB's is indeed homozygous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dreese88

I'm interested to see where you saw that the Pin has a proven homo form. I've not read or heard anything other than speculation that BHB's is indeed homozygous.

---

I looked but i couldn't find it, but it was a little tid bit written by Brain, i read it over a year ago, about we he talked about the pin having a homo form and he had a male that was bred to different females and produced all pins and i remeber he recorded the different clutches and had the odds of him hitting pin 100% of the time and pin being dominate which means 1/2 chance for each egg to be pin, was something like a 100,000,000 to 1, so that was enough proof for me. which i did some quick math and that would be somewhere around 30 eggs, all hitting pin.

I exchange emails with him and a few months ago i asked him about it, to confirm it and he said that he has proven pin to have a homo form. but he didn't go into detail about what i said above. I could make a suggestion for him to post something about it on the forum here for everyone to see, mayb he'll take the time to do it.

and to clear up the whole het thing....
genes come in sets of 2
het aka heterozygous means only having 1 gene
homo aka homozygous means having both genes
both resessive and co-dom can be het, just means they only have 1 gene. het albino is obviously het and albino is homo, lesser is het and BEL is homo, pastel is het, super pastel is homo.
dominate genes do not have a homo form

So then your 50 % het pins are actually just pins with one copy of the gene and your 25% homo pins are pins with 2 copies of the pin gene.

for this reason i prefer using the term co dom since when i think het, i am visioning an animal that is carrying 1 copy of a reccssive gene so you cant see it. when you say het pin it is confusing since if the animal is carrying 1 copy of a codom gene it is going to be visual.
this also makes me think that red axanthics should be considered a super form of a co dom gene since het reds look obvious, you know they are het since the one copy of the red gene is visible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kryptonian

this also makes me think that red axanthics should be considered a super form of a co dom gene since het reds look obvious, you know they are het since the one copy of the red gene is visible.

---

I think they are, I always have considered them as such at least

Im almost positive that the pin and the spider are simply dominant genes with no super form. i also know that spider to spider is pretty much a lethal gene, and if you do produce spiders they will probably have a very bad "wobble" just like a lot of the womas, because of severe imbreeding.



just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingmorph69

Im almost positive that the pin and the spider are simply dominant genes with no super form. i also know that spider to spider is pretty much a lethal gene, and if you do produce spiders they will probably have a very bad "wobble" just like a lot of the womas, because of severe imbreeding.



just my 2 cents.

---

And what evidence do you have to back these statements up?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I looked but i couldn't find it, but it was a little tid bit written by Brain, i read it over a year ago, about we he talked about the pin having a homo form and he had a male that was bred to different females and produced all pins and i remeber he recorded the different clutches and had the odds of him hitting pin 100% of the time and pin being dominate which means 1/2 chance for each egg to be pin, was something like a 100,000,000 to 1, so that was enough proof for me. which i did some quick math and that would be somewhere around 30 eggs, all hitting pin.

I exchange emails with him and a few months ago i asked him about it, to confirm it and he said that he has proven pin to have a homo form. but he didn't go into detail about what i said above. I could make a suggestion for him to post something about it on the forum here for everyone to see, mayb he'll take the time to do it.

and to clear up the whole het thing....
genes come in sets of 2
het aka heterozygous means only having 1 gene
homo aka homozygous means having both genes
both resessive and co-dom can be het, just means they only have 1 gene. het albino is obviously het and albino is homo, lesser is het and BEL is homo, pastel is het, super pastel is homo.
dominate genes do not have a homo form

---

Dominant genes DO have a homo form, its just that its visually the same as the het form. The only difference between dominant and co-dom genes are the lack of a visually different super form with the dominant genes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pankthesnake

Dominant genes DO have a homo form, its just that its visually the same as the het form. The only difference between dominant and co-dom genes are the lack of a visually different super form with the dominant genes.

---

This. Heterozygous is one allele, homozygous is two alleles. Every gene of every creature can be one or the other. Really it's semantics, that dominant has no visible super (homozygous) form but has a visible het form, co-dom has a visible het form and a distinctively different super (homozygous) form, and recessive has only a visible Homozygous form (excluding red axanthics which is just more semantics).

Whether the homozygous form is visibly different from het, lethal, or has genetic problems doesn't change the fact that the allele has 2 mutations (homo) as opposed to one (het).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pankthesnake

Dominant genes DO have a homo form, its just that its visually the same as the het form. The only difference between dominant and co-dom genes are the lack of a visually different super form with the dominant genes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nae

This. Heterozygous is one allele, homozygous is two alleles. Every gene of every creature can be one or the other. Really it's semantics, that dominant has no visible super (homozygous) form but has a visible het form, co-dom has a visible het form and a distinctively different super (homozygous) form, and recessive has only a visible Homozygous form (excluding red axanthics which is just more semantics).

Whether the homozygous form is visibly different from het, lethal, or has genetic problems doesn't change the fact that the allele has 2 mutations (homo) as opposed to one (het).

---

incorrect, co-dom het and homo forms do not have to be visually different

the fact that there is a homo form makes it co-dom, lacking the homo form makes it dominate, that IS the difference. I though the same thing but....

part of an email I sent this to brian a while ago, right after his snakebytes episode on genetics...

but would the pin having a super form make it a co-dom? I was under the impression that it had to be visually different in het and homo form. If that is the case that really complicates things.... i mean how can you classify spider same thing as a pin then. doesn't it have a homo form thats just lethal so they just don't exist. or has that been proven? but the woma is considered co-dom, since pearl looks different, but thats also lethal in the homo form. so the homo form really doesn't exist (or exist that long).

his response to that part...

We think we have proven that pins are co-dom. They do not need to look different, just have the genetics that make all pins when bred to something. Time will tell and we will keep everyone posted with our results this season.

that was Aug 15th

btw Het Red Axanthics are co-dom, because they are the hetrozygous form of the red axanthic. just like a russo het lucy. people need to stop thinking het automatically means recessive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingmorph69

Im almost positive that the pin and the spider are simply dominant genes with no super form. i also know that spider to spider is pretty much a lethal gene, and if you do produce spiders they will probably have a very bad "wobble" just like a lot of the womas, because of severe imbreeding.



just my 2 cents.

---

not due to inbreeding at all just goes with the gene, and I've never herd of a woma with a wobble and no one has been able to lock down on the spider wobble, some have it some don't, out crossing really doesn't have an effect, breeding "no wobble" spider doesn't seem to work. just seems to be random. My spider doesn't wobble at all, but her offspring might.

spider having a suspected lethal form probally makes it the least inbreed morph out there.