Red Tail Boa and IBD and transmission to BP's

I have a friend who is intending to purchase a rescue Red tail boa.
I mentioned IBD and she is not really aware of what that is and what it can do to ball pythons.
I would like to inform her of the particulars of IBD and what she can do to either to prevent it from spreading to the balls.
Or to educate her that the possibility is too great of a risk to her 2 bp's that she has now.

I know that @ 70% of RTB's carry it and that is can be transmitted to balls, and that it can be fatal.
But she is in an apartment, and wants to keep it in her closet, and all of the other snakes are in her bedroom. The closet is an open walk through/walk in/through to the ball room from the bredroom.
Any thoughts, links, and other information I can get to her would be very appreciated.

Carol

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...ticles/ibd.asp

INCLUSION BODY DISEASE

Inclusion body disease (IBD) has been increasingly diagnosed in boas and pythons ("boids"). It is believed to be a retrovirus. The way it affects these two groups of snakes is slightly different but the long term effects are the same: the disease is terminal in those animals who exhibit symptoms of the disease.

Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers.

Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.

In pythons, the disease progresses much more rapidly than in boas. Along with the above symptoms (excluding the chronic regurgitation), pythons also tend toward infectious stomatitis ("mouth rot"), heightened or exaggerated reflex responses, disorientation (which may be precipitated by the onset of central blindness) and loss of motor coordination.

What causes this disease? Intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies have been identified in the epithelial cells of the kidneys and pancreas. Neuronal degeneration and lesions form in the spinal cord and brain, and may be accompanied by myelin degeneration and nerve damage. Damage to the spleen is also found, with that organ being grossly atrophied and fibrosed. Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category.

The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.

As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).

There is at this time no treatment for the disease and, as it is at this time always fatal and highly contagious, euthanasia is the course of action recommended. Even if the snake can be kept alive through supportive measures (hydration and force-feeding), the damage to the nerves, brain, spinal cord and internal organs is so great--and progressive--that live is only prolonged with an ever decreasing quality and increasing pain.

Due to the increasing incidence of this disease, it cannot be stated or urged strongly enough to QUARANTINE ALL NEW BOIDS upon acquisition for at least 3-6 months, and to take precautions when visiting other collections, pet stores and expos/swaps.

Sources

* Bennett, R. Avery. (1996) Neurology. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery.
* Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 141-148. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.
* Done, Lisa B. (1996). Postural Abnormalities. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 406-411. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.
* Murray, Michael J. (1996) Pneumonia and Normal Respiratory Function. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 396-405 W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.
* Schumacher, Juergen, Elliott R. Jacobson, Bruce L. Homer, Jack M. Gaskin. (1994). Inclusion Body Disease in Boid Snakes. Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 25(4):51-524.

Frequently asked questions:

Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes?
A: Yes...through blood testing ("For hematologic and plasma biochemical determinations, 0.6 ml of blood was placed in each of three microtainer tubes containing lithium heparin. All samples were submitted for hematological and plasma biochemical determinations within 30 min after collection. Whole blood examination included RBC, WBC, differential WBC, and determination of PCV, and Hb concentrations. Plasma biochemical analyses included determination of concentrations of sodium, potassium, chloride, carbon dioxide, urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine, calcium, glucose, phosphorus, total bilirubin, cholesterol, uric acid, total protein, albumin, globulin, alkaline phosphatase, SGOT, SGPT. For comparative purposes, clinically affected boa constrictors were arbitrarily categorized as either acutely affected (<2 months following onset of signs) or chronically affected (>2 months following onset).

Acutely affected snakes had leukocytosis, relative lymphocytosis, lower total protein and globulin values, and significantly higher SGOT values than did chronically affected snakes.

Here's data on the acutely affected (n=6, out of a study group of 15; Schumacher, et al.)

RBC 0.7, +/- 0.1
Hemoglobin 7.6, 1.2
PCV 22.3, 4.1
WBC 13,733, 6,639
Heterophils 19.7, 13.3
Lymphocytes 46.8, 20.5
Monocytes 3.8, 2.4
Eosinophils 0.2, 0.4
Basophils 3.2, 6.4
Azurophils 23.3, 7.4

To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis.

Q: How long in minimum/maximum is the lifespan of an individual who exhibits symptoms of the disease?
A: It apparently fatal to all but the asymptomatic carriers. Time of death varies between individuals, and pythons tend to die faster than boas. Based on the research in the Schumacher article (quoted above for the blood values), some boas at least are hanging on for several months. Whether they should be allowed to hang on, in light of the very obvious distress and destruction of organs and CNS, is another matter...

Q: What are the living conditions of this virus - how will he react to heat or cold, what kind of disinfection works?
A: At this point, they don't know. To quote Bennett: "No treatment has been shown to be successful for this viral disease. It may be mild in boas and may go undiagnosed. It is, therefore, best to prevent exposure of pythons to boas. Schumacher, in the same source (Mader) states: "At present there is no treatment. Strict quarantine procedures should be followed when introducing newly acquired snakes (especially boas) into an established collection. Once the disease has been diagnosed, euthanasia of affected snakes is the only way to prevent the infection from spreading." Schumacher states that snakes in public and private collections in the U.S., Africa and Europe have been diagnosed with this disease. One of his references is the article I cited in above; the other is Schumacher, J: Atiologische und pathologische Untersuchungen uber die sog. EinschluBkorperchenerkrankung der Riesenschlangen (Boidae). Vet Med Diss (Munich), 1992.

Caresheet by Melissa Kaplan.

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...dcasestudy.asp


INCLUSION BODY DISEASE - CASE STUDY
Case II - 165 or 96N165 (AFIP 2548995)

Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Conference, September 11 1996
Conference Moderator: Jennifer A. Burris, Commander, Public Health Service, Diplomate, ACVP
Food and Drug Administration
HFV-150, 750 Standish Place
Rockville, MD 20855


IBD Necrotizing enteritis and ulceration in a red-tailed boa constrictor with zygomycosis and concurrent boid inclusion disease. (HE, 40X,)
IBD Pleomorphic fungal hyphae within the ulcerated areas of the enteric mucosa which have non-parallel walls, range up to 20 microns in diameter, are pauciseptate, and stain well with HE - all characteristics of a zygomycete. Further speciation is not possible based on examination of this fungus in tissue section. (HE, 400X)
IBD Numerous round cytoplasmic inclusions with enteric mucosal epithelial cells, which are characteristic findings in boid inclusion disease. Inclusions were also seen in lymphocytes and cells of the myenteric plexus. (HE, 400X)

Signalment:
3-year-old red-tailed boa constrictor (Boa constrictor).

History:
This boa was part of a colony of over 40 exotic snakes of various species. It had a 5 month history of lethargy, intermittent anorexia, weight loss, and fetid loose feces. On physical examination it had dehydration and petechiation of its oral mucosa and ventral scutes. It was treated with fluids and antibiotics over a period of 2 months without improvement.

Gross Pathology:
Marked coelomic and pericardial serous effusions. Diffuse petechiation of fat bodies and subcutis. Focal segment of distal small intestine with severe edema and luminal accumulation of partially adherent thick mucoid material.

Laboratory Results:
CBC (4 weeks ante-mortem): PCV = 21%, WBC = 1500 cells/ul Intestinal contents, fungal culture: Small numbers ofTrichosporon beigelii, Aspergillus clavatus; Salmonella culture negative fecal floatation negative IFA for Giardia and Cryptosporidium negative.

Contributor's Diagnosis and Comments:

1. Necrotizing enteritis, heterophilic and granulomatous, moderate, focal, with intra-lesional fungal hyphae and yeast forms - presumptive etiology: Aspergillus clavatus, Trichosporon beigelii.
2. Intra-cytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies in most cell types - Boid inclusion body disease.

Inclusion body disease (IBD) affects various species of boid snakes and usually manifests as progressive debilitation, anorexia, weight loss, regurgitation, and neurologic signs. The presence of the typical, well-defined intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies is often associated with cellular degeneration in various tissues, most commonly in the CNS, where a non-suppurative encephalomyelitis can also be observed. Various secondary infections are frequently associated with IBD, such as pneumonia and nephritis. In this boa, encephalitis was not noted, although inclusions were numerous in the brain, and were associated with degeneration. The animal also had a mycotic enteritis affecting a focal segment of distal small intestine. The morphology of the fungal elements (pleomorphic hyphae, yeast forms) was compatible with both the Aspergillus clavatus and Trichosporon beigelii organisms obtained by fungal culture of the intestinal contents. The boa probably developed fungal enteritis from the changes in gut flora induced by prolonged antibiotic treatment; IBD may have been a predisposing factor. Electron microscopy of liver tissue revealed that the inclusions contained granular homogenous osmiophilic material. Lined around the periphery, and occasionally inside the inclusions were numerous clathrin-coated pinocytotic vesicles. A few particles consistent with type C retroviruses, measuring 95-110 nm, were observed in the intercellular spaces, sometimes budding from the cell membrane. The particles were similar to those previously reported in snakes with IBD (see reference).

AFIP Diagnosis:
Intestine: Enteritis, ulcerative, necrotizing, granulomatous, multifocal, severe, with fungal hyphae, red-tailed boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), reptile, etiology consistent with a zygomycete.

Intestinal epithelium; lymphocytes; intestinal ganglion cells of myenteric plexi: Eosinophilic intracytoplasmic inclusion bodies.

Conference Note:
The inclusions in submitted tissues are eosinophilic to amphophilic, range up to 10 microns in diameter, and did not appear to be associated with degenerative or inflammatory changes. The morphologic features of the fungus are consistent with the those of the Class Zygomycetes and not with Aspergillus or Trichosporon spp. These features include broad, thin-walled, infrequently septate, pleomorphic hyphae that range from about 5 to 20 m in width and irrgeular right angle branches. The fact that the hyphae stain well with H&E is also characteristic of a zygomycete.

Inclusion body disease of boid snakes has been recognized for over 20 years in private and zoological collections in the United States. The disease affects only snakes of the Family Boidae including both boa constrictors and pythons. The disease is characterized by the formation of intracytoplasmic inclusions in the epithelial cells of all major organs and neurons in the central nervous system. Clinical symptoms include head tremors, disorientation, incoordination, and regurgitation. Ultrastructurally, a type C retrovirus has been associated with the lesions. The presence of a retrovirus is supported by demonstration of reverse transcriptase activity in the plasma and within the supernatant from primary kidney cell cultures of affected snakes.

Major histologic lesions include a nonsuppurative meningoencephalitis with neuronal degeneration, gliosis, and demyelinization. Intracytoplasmic inclusions are noted within degenerating neurons of the gray matter and ependymal cells. Inflammation in the central nervous system is more severe in pythons; however, intracytoplasmic inclusions are more numerous in boa constrictors. In the experience of pathologists at the National Zoological Park, Washington D.C., inclusion body disease has been found not only as a primary disease but also in association with secondary infections or as an incidental finding. In fact, many lesions within visceral organs of affected snakes have been attributed to secondary infections.

Contributor:
Dept of Veterinary Pathology, Microbiology & Immunology School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616.

Reference:

* Schumacher J, Jacobson ER, Homer BL, Gaskin JM. Inclusion body disease in boid snakes, J Zoo and Wildlife Med 25(4):511-24, 1994.
* AFIP. 1996. AFIP Wednesday Slide Conference - No. 2 September 11 1996 Extract.

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...s/ibdvirus.asp

INCLUSION BODY DISEASE VIRUS

History:
Inclusion body disease of boid snakes has been recognized since the mid 1970's. It is named for the characteristic intracytoplasmic inclusions which are seen in epidermal cells, oral mucosal epithelial cells, visceral epithelial cells, and neurons. In the 1970's, through the late 1980's, this disease was most commonly seen in Burmese pythons, Python molusus bivittatus. Starting in the late 1980's until present, it has been seen most commonly in boa constrictors, Boa constrictor.

Host:
All boid snakes should be considered susceptible. While the disease has not been identified in non-boid snakes, it is unknown whether nonboid snakes can harbor the virus. The primary host of this virus has not been identified.

Distribution:
Worldwide in captive boid snakes. Its occurrence in the wild is unknown.

Ages Affected:
Has been identified primarily in adult snakes. However, all age groups should be considered susceptible. There are anecdotal reports of infection in neonates.

Etiologic Agent:
A retro-like virus has been incriminated as the causative agent of IBD (Figure 1). We have an isolate from a boa constrictor that will be used in a transmission study to fulfill Koch's postulates and determine if it is the causative agent. reverse transcriptase activity has been demonstrated in supernatant from viper heart cells infected with this virus. This virus is currently being purified for biochemical characterization and production of polyclonal antibodies in rabbits.

Clinical Signs:
Clinical signs are quite variable. Regurgitation and signs of central nervous system disease (Figure 2; Figure 3; Figure 4A and Figure 4B) are commonly seen in boa constrictors. Stomatitis, pneumonia, undifferentiated cutaneous sarcomas (Figure 5), lymphoproliferative disorders, and leukemia have all been seen. Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without manifesting any other clincal signs; regurgitation is not seen in Burmese pythons.

Pathology:
By light microscopy, in hematoxlin and eosin stained tissues sections of a wide variety of epithelial and neuronal cells, characteristic intracytoplasmic inclusions are seen. Several snakes have been seen with proliferative pneumonia (Figure 6). While inclusions are commonly seen in the liver, kidney, and pancreas (Figure 7; Figure 8; Figure 9), we have seen cases where there are very few inclusions. In a few snakes with signs of central nervous sytem disease, and with a severe encephalitis, no inclusions have been seen in any cells. While the presence of chracteristic inclusions is diagnostic for the disease, the absence of inclusions does not necessarily mean the snake is disease or IBD virus free. While cells having inclusions may show mild degeneratve changes, inflammation is rarely seen in visceral tissues. In the brain, mild to severe encephalitis, with lymphocytic perivascular cuffing may be seen. Several snakes with lymphoproliferative disorders have been identified with lymphoid infiltrates in multiple organs.

Transmission:
Exact route of transmission has not been identified. Possibly by: 1) direct contact; 2) intrauterine transmission to developing embryos in viviparous species and eggs in oviparaous species; 3) veneral transmission. The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis has been implicated as a vector for the virus since mite intestations are commonly seen in epizootics of IBD.

Diagnosis:
Currently there is no serologic assay available for determining exposure. We are working toward developing an immunoflourescence assay. At the University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine, we perform complete blood counts on suspect snakes. Infected snakes commonly have white blood cells counts >30,000/ul. Intracytoplasmic inclusions are occasionally seen in peripheral lymphocytes (Figure 10). We also take esophageal, gastric, and liver bopsies. If inclusions are identified in any cells, euthanasia is recommended.

Control:
Identify infected snakes and euthanatize. All new snakes should be quarantined for minimally 90 days before introduction into an established collection. Recommendations for boas is 6 month quarantine period. Mite control and elimination is essential. Fibroglass cages of infected snakes should be cleaned with chlorox and left out in the sun to dry before being used for other snakes. Wooden cages, unless sealed with urethane or some other sealeant should be discarded.

Current and Future Research:

1. Isolation and purification of the causative agent.
2. Development of a serodiagnostic test.

References:

* Schumacher, J., Jacobson, E.R.; Homer, B.L.; Gaskin, J.M. 1994. Inclusion body disease in boid snakes. J. of Zoo and Wildlife Med. 25(4):511-524.
* Axthelm, M.K. 1985. Viral encephalitis of boid snakes. Int. Colloq. Pathol. Reptiles Amphib. 3:25. (Abstract)

For More Information Contact:

Dr. Elliott Jacobson
Box 100126
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida
Gainesville, Florida 32610

Dr. Juergen Schumacher
Box 100126
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida
Gainesville, Florida 32610

UFL. 1996. IBD Virus Info. Originally published at http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/IBDINFO.html.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

I know that @ 70% of RTB's carry it and that is can be transmitted to balls, and that it can be fatal.Carol

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Huh? 70% of Red Tail Boa's carry IBD? Where did you come across this? Because someone needs an education. No way that 70% of RTB's carry IBD.

Yes it can be transmitted to Ball Pythons.

Your statement "that it can be fatal" is incorrect. It IS fatal. Period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobbittle

Huh? 70% of Red Tail Boa's carry IBD? Where did you come across this? Because someone needs an education. No way that 70% of RTB's carry IBD.

Yes it can be transmitted to Ball Pythons.

Your statement "that it can be fatal" is incorrect. It IS fatal. Period.

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I think Ive read that they all have it before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobbittle

Huh? 70% of Red Tail Boa's carry IBD? Where did you come across this? Because someone needs an education. No way that 70% of RTB's carry IBD.

Yes it can be transmitted to Ball Pythons.

Your statement "that it can be fatal" is incorrect. It IS fatal. Period.

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As to IBD being always fatal - be careful of who you claim has their facts wrong - it's possible for boas to be asymptomatic carriers of IBD - perhaps for their entire lives. I was the owner of two long terms carriers - one who exhibited symptoms and one who was an asymptomatic carrier for in excess of 6 years. After discussing the disease with the good folks at UCD, I was flat out told that it was possible that the asymptomatic one could have remained so for another 6 years or perhaps her entire life.

Fact is, no one knows if it's 100% fatal in boa constrictors.

As for 70% of boas carrying IBD - again no one knows the true rate of occurence. The testing is invasive and inaccurate and so few people actually pay for histopathology that the true rate of occurrence is unknown. However, per the Merck Veterinary manual, up to 50% of boas tested are carriers.

Per this link - up to 33% of necropsied boas were carriers:

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

I've covered this ground on this forum before and there were a lot of wedged panties in a lot of butt cracks. When it comes to IBD, throw out what you think you know and read from the people who are actually researching it and the folks who are treating and testing their animals for it.

To the OP: what should your friend do? Talk to a vet who actually treats the disease, a lab who diagnoses it or see if one of the researchers like Jacobson will answer some queries. There is too much flat out bad information floating around about this disease for her to get a decent answer on any forum.

I was referring to the lethality of IBD in pythons, specifically balls, which I understood as (essentially) being 100%.

I hadn't done much research into IBD in boas because I'm not a boa keeper. It may stay that way as I have no desire to endanger my python collection as I have no way to keep the animals in seperate rooms.

It may be a stretch, but could IBD in boas be compared to herpes in behavior?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobbittle

I was referring to the lethality of IBD in pythons, specifically balls, which I understood as (essentially) being 100%.

I hadn't done much research into IBD in boas because I'm not a boa keeper. It may stay that way as I have no desire to endanger my python collection as I have no way to keep the animals in seperate rooms.

It may be a stretch, but could IBD in boas be compared to herpes in behavior?

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In pythons it appears to be universally fatal.

Bob, I think the nearest comparison is HIV and AIDS. People can have HIV for up to 11 years without it progressing to full blown AIDS. At this time, we do not know whether or not an animal can be asymptomatic for 6 years, 12 years or even 20 years without developing symptoms.

Sometimes, even when the animal is adversely affected, the symptoms are subclinical and can be treated - although they tend to be chronic in nature and never fully resolve.

I had read somewhere that is was in 70% of all captive bred or RTB's that are in collections
are carriers of it.
I am quite probably wrong, but I don't want my friend to go through heartbreak getting a snake that may be a carrier.
I personally won't have one if I have pythons. But they are great snakes.
I will have her read this so she knows what she is getting into.
Thanks
Carol

70%? I'd like to see evidence of that before I believe such a high number.

Actually, doing a liver biopsy isn't that bad of a procedure, and it is highly accurate in detecting IBD. It's just rather expensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

70%? I'd like to see evidence of that before I believe such a high number.

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ME too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

70%? I'd like to see evidence of that before I believe such a high number.

Actually, doing a liver biopsy isn't that bad of a procedure, and it is highly accurate in detecting IBD. It's just rather expensive.

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Unless of course the snake is not shedding virus when the biopsy is taken. That is why determination in live animals is so difficult. You need a much bigger sample than can be taken from a live snake.

I don't believe 70% here in the states but from what I understand it is becoming common in Europe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

70%? I'd like to see evidence of that before I believe such a high number.

Actually, doing a liver biopsy isn't that bad of a procedure, and it is highly accurate in detecting IBD. It's just rather expensive.

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Only if there are actual inclusion bodies present in the liver. Remember, while the presence of inclusions is a diagnostic for the disease, the absence of these inclusion bodies does not necessarily indicate that the snake is not diseased or is free from IBD.

They could be in the:

............gall bladder

............brain

............esophageal tonsils

etc.

My female went through a liver and a gall bladder biopsy (ultrasound assisted). No inclusion bodies.

The inclusion bodies were found in her esophogeal tonsils........


As for the rate of incidence - I believe it's south of 70% but higher than your local boa breeder would leave you to believe.

Don't take my word for it - Dr. Jacobson has proven himself reachable by e-mail - even to members on this forum.

Instead of asking specifics from a vet who only sees a couple of confirmed cases a year, or worse a breeder who will most likely deny IBD is even a problem, e-mail the man who's spearheading the research and see what he has to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

ME too.

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To me even the 33% number is scary - a third of all red-tails? Those odds suck.......

Here is my question, I love boas, ever since I was a kid and saw them from time to time around, Im from Venezuela, although people always killed those snakes. But I always found them facinating. My favorite snake by far.

Anyways, Im 26 now and I realy want to get a true red tail, But I already have ball pythons, and I love them too...

Is there anyways for breeders to know if thier BOAs have IBD or not? Is there any reputable breeders that are know to be "IBD free"?

Thanks. :)

I've already resigned myself to never owning redtails.

However, does anyone know if other boa species are prone to carry IBD? The one species that interests me most is the Brazilian rainbow boa. Are rainbow boas known to carry this disease?

I in no way want to take any risks with my python collection, but if some boas can be kept safely, I'd love some rainbows.

I am a little more curious about the actual properties of the virus itself. I have my BP's in one room and my boa in another. I usually take care of the BP's first and then the boa. But, what I keep wondering about is, if my boa is an IBD carrier, then is keeping them in separate rooms enough. Basically, how long does IBD survive in air? I have ventilation fans running in both rooms, so is it possible the the virus can be spread around the house from room to room? Or, if I inhale the virus, and later, cough or sneeze in the BP room, have I just contaminated the room? I know there are probably no definitive answers to these questions. This is something that I wonder about when thinking if merely keeping them in sepapate rooms is enough. I guess the best case scenario is to have separate facilities for each species and wearing bio suits in the boa room, but this is not practcal. So, in the end, it is more of a gamble that you hope you don't lose...


Rob

ONE IBD free red tail "hatchling" (I forgot the boa name for "hatchling" :P) cant be much to ask for is it??!

I personally do not believe that the vast majority of boas are carrier of IBD. From what I understand, if you have a boa that is a carrier of IBD and put them in the same room as a ball python the ball will die very quickly. I keep my boas and my pythons in the same room and have for years with no symptoms from any of my snakes. All of my boas are captive bred.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

As for 70% of boas carrying IBD - again no one knows the true rate of occurence. The testing is invasive and inaccurate and so few people actually pay for histopathology that the true rate of occurrence is unknown. However, per the Merck Veterinary manual, up to 50% of boas tested are carriers.

Per this link - up to 33% of necropsied boas were carriers:

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

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A large number of boas never see a vet in their lives, and most who do see one because something is wrong with them. Same with the necropys...a person is more likely to have one done if they don't know why their animal died. Therefore, the chance that boas examined by vets have IBD is greater than the population of boas as a whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeries

A large number of boas never see a vet in their lives, and most who do see one because something is wrong with them. Same with the necropys...a person is more likely to have one done if they don't know why their animal died. Therefore, the chance that boas examined by vets have IBD is greater than the population of boas as a whole.

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Great point.

The prevalence was especially high in Boa constrictor subspecies
(>33 per cent) and in the tree boa,Corallus annulatus (28 per
cent). The disease rarely or never occurred in ground boas
(Acrantophis species), rainbow boas (Epicrates species) and
anacondas (Eunectes species). The most remarkable result of
this survey was the absence of the disease among 301 pythons
examined postmortem.
seriously ppl atleast read the information posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeries

A large number of boas never see a vet in their lives, and most who do see one because something is wrong with them. Same with the necropys...a person is more likely to have one done if they don't know why their animal died. Therefore, the chance that boas examined by vets have IBD is greater than the population of boas as a whole.

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just boas? im sure many many reptiles period have never been to a vet.
out of those im sure most wouldnt pay for the tests unless they had a big collection, breeders, zoos.

unfortunately there is way too many ppl that dont care enough to treat an animal whose price was not much more than just the standard vet visit and how many died and ppl just tossed them in the trash

From the same paper linked (re: liver biopsies):

"The disease affects all organ systems and the inclusions
can be found in virtually all cell types. The epithelia of
the liver, pancreatic gland, kidneys and gastric mucosa contain
the highest density of affected cells (Garner and
Raymond 2004).

"The best way to achieve diagnosis in a living snake is to
perform a wedge biopsy of the liver through a flank incision.
A biopsy of the tonsils on the surface of the oesophagus or
a biopsy of the gastric mucosa is also an option, but requires
an endoscope suitable for the size of the snake (Garner and
Raymond 2004; E. R. Jacobson, personal communication).
Skin biopsies are another possibility, but are not as sensitive
as a liver biopsy. However, the sensitivity can be
improved by taking several skin biopsies (Garner and
Raymond 2004)."

Granted, this doesn't say at what stage of the illness it affects nearly all cell types; however, it does seem, from the reading, that it doesn't take long.

About the statistics on how many boas have the disease: Given what others mentioned about the frequency of affected snakes given biopsies (even less common than those that get taken to the vet), 33% is going to be an upper limit, at best.

EDIT: Please note I'm not saying liver biopsies are 100% accurate all the time.

This is very interesting... I was just offered a hypo BCI in a trade (for electronic equipment), and now I'm worried about accepting. I was thinking of taking the snake, but will it be a constant risk with my BP collection? And are BCIs and red-tails the same thing? Sorry, I know nothing about boas yet! :D

We do have a good herp vet around here, so maybe I could take him straight to the vet - followed by a good long quarantine. Hmmmmmm. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeries

A large number of boas never see a vet in their lives, and most who do see one because something is wrong with them. Same with the necropys...a person is more likely to have one done if they don't know why their animal died. Therefore, the chance that boas examined by vets have IBD is greater than the population of boas as a whole.

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Read the enitre article. If that's the case, why was the disease absent (in the same study) in over 300 pythons?

Better yet, e-mail Dr. Jacobson and ask him two questions:

(1) How prevalent does he think the disease is in boa constrictors?
(2) What does he think of the level of interest/concern from the reptile community?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

This is very interesting... I was just offered a hypo BCI in a trade (for electronic equipment), and now I'm worried about accepting. I was thinking of taking the snake, but will it be a constant risk with my BP collection? And are BCIs and red-tails the same thing? Sorry, I know nothing about boas yet! :D

We do have a good herp vet around here, so maybe I could take him straight to the vet - followed by a good long quarantine. Hmmmmmm. :cool:

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A vet will do you no good in diagnosing IBD unless you want to spend a lot of money on a test that may tell you nothing.

As for QT - some boas can be asymptomatic for years..........how long were you planning on keeping the animal in QT?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

From the same paper linked (re: liver biopsies):

"The disease affects all organ systems and the inclusions
can be found in virtually all cell types. The epithelia of
the liver, pancreatic gland, kidneys and gastric mucosa contain
the highest density of affected cells (Garner and
Raymond 2004).

"The best way to achieve diagnosis in a living snake is to
perform a wedge biopsy of the liver through a flank incision.
A biopsy of the tonsils on the surface of the oesophagus or
a biopsy of the gastric mucosa is also an option, but requires
an endoscope suitable for the size of the snake (Garner and
Raymond 2004; E. R. Jacobson, personal communication).
Skin biopsies are another possibility, but are not as sensitive
as a liver biopsy. However, the sensitivity can be
improved by taking several skin biopsies (Garner and
Raymond 2004)."

Granted, this doesn't say at what stage of the illness it affects nearly all cell types; however, it does seem, from the reading, that it doesn't take long.

About the statistics on how many boas have the disease: Given what others mentioned about the frequency of affected snakes given biopsies (even less common than those that get taken to the vet), 33% is going to be an upper limit, at best.

EDIT: Please note I'm not saying liver biopsies are 100% accurate all the time.

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Read Jacobson's papers on IBD. He actually wrote two excellent articles in Reptiles Magazine.

After you look those up you will learn:

A liver biopsy can only detect IBD if there are actual inclusion bodies present in the liver.

While the presence of inclusions is a diagnostic for the disease, the absence of these inclusion bodies does not necessarily indicate that the snake is not diseased or is free from IBD.

In other words - a negative biopsy may mean nothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

This is very interesting... I was just offered a hypo BCI in a trade (for electronic equipment), and now I'm worried about accepting. I was thinking of taking the snake, but will it be a constant risk with my BP collection? And are BCIs and red-tails the same thing? Sorry, I know nothing about boas yet! :D

We do have a good herp vet around here, so maybe I could take him straight to the vet - followed by a good long quarantine. Hmmmmmm. :cool:

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I keep my red tail right next to my ball and havent any problems also hypos are a colombian BCI morph I say go for it red tail boas are full of personality and adorable!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkComeSoon

I keep my red tail right next to my ball and havent any problems also hypos are a colombian BCI morph I say go for it red tail boas are full of personality and adorable!

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unfortunately from what i see the only real way to tell would to to keep a ball with a boa in qt to rule out IBD, but the bigger question is who wants to risk any other animal for the sake of keeping a boa and the collection many of us have. not to mention that it seems fairly unhumane to me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

As for QT - some boas can be asymptomatic for years..........how long were you planning on keeping the animal in QT?

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Apparently not long enough. :cool: So, who here does have both Boas & BPs (aside from those who've already stated they do) - and how did you approach this issue?

This is what I want to know, I just want a true red tail BCC, Im thinking peruvian or brazilian, but I dont wanna risk my BPs.

So here again, are there any known RTB breeders that are IBD free?

I contacted Vin Russo at Cutting Edge Reptiles and he says his boas are IBD free. To what I have been let to believe, he is very reputable breeder. I like his Brasilian Red Tails. I will most likely get one from him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Read Jacobson's papers on IBD. He actually wrote two excellent articles in Reptiles Magazine.

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I will! I want to learn as much about this disease as I can....

Quote:

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In other words - a negative biopsy may mean nothing.

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I never disagreed with this point.

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I'm sorry, I just don't see how a large fraction of boas can have IBD. If they did, boas (and pythons) would be dying right and left. So few people observe proper quarantine procedures, IBD would be running rampant throughout the boid trade.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be cautious.... I'm just saying I still don't believe this numbers to be accurate. Also, if a boa breeder had IBD, it would probably run through his collection in no time. Some boas are asymptomatic; some are not. I'd say go with a good/trusted breeder and you should be fine. (I'd still quarantine for six months, at least, however.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I contacted Vin Russo at Cutting Edge Reptiles and he says his boas are IBD free. To what I have been let to believe, he is very reputable breeder. I like his Brasilian Red Tails. I will most likely get one from him.

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not to knock russo or any other breeder, but its already been said that breeders most would not admit to it even if they did get it in their collection at one time or another. the key point here is to QT for a long time and when you think your good qt even more. it doesnt hurt and your animals are worth the wait. also its good to know the breeders setup. does he keep his balls with his boas or are they separate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

This is very interesting... I was just offered a hypo BCI in a trade (for electronic equipment), and now I'm worried about accepting. I was thinking of taking the snake, but will it be a constant risk with my BP collection? And are BCIs and red-tails the same thing? Sorry, I know nothing about boas yet! :D

We do have a good herp vet around here, so maybe I could take him straight to the vet - followed by a good long quarantine. Hmmmmmm. :cool:

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Apparently not long enough. :cool: So, who here does have both Boas & BPs (aside from those who've already stated they do) - and how did you approach this issue?

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You just have to know and trust the breeders for being reputable. Even if they may or may not know, it's a risk you have to take with boas.

I have 3 boas, though only one is a BCI and has been in the same room as my pythons for over a year. When I got him, I only had a few pythons, and nothing has come up and killed them.

Here's the thing that quirks me. The boas are asymptomatic for years, correct? But can they not still transfer the disease immediately to pythons that will show effects within 6 months?
Therefore, if breeders have pythons and boas, then they can basically determine that their boas don't have IBD, because they're pythons are thriving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Here's the thing that quirks me. The boas are asymptomatic for years, correct? But can they not still transfer the disease immediately to pythons that will show effects within 6 months?
Therefore, if breeders have pythons and boas, then they can basically determine that their boas don't have IBD, because they're pythons are thriving.

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technically but if its not airborne and can only be transmitted by actual contracted with fluids or physical contact, they might not get it.
at the same time with the ppl that have had ibd in their collections what we dont know is was there handwashing between tubs or washing tubs and the same animal not getting the same tub

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eventide

I'm sorry, I just don't see how a large fraction of boas can have IBD. If they did, boas (and pythons) would be dying right and left. So few people observe proper quarantine procedures, IBD would be running rampant throughout the boid trade.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be cautious.... I'm just saying I still don't believe this numbers to be accurate. Also, if a boa breeder had IBD, it would probably run through his collection in no time. Some boas are asymptomatic; some are not. I'd say go with a good/trusted breeder and you should be fine. (I'd still quarantine for six months, at least, however.)

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Not true.

At least one of my boas was a carrier for 6+ years. I have a large collection of animals including many colubrids and 3 womas, a pair of blackheads, a pair of stimsons, a pair of spotteds, a pair of childrens and a pair of anthills. None of them ever came down with the disease and it's been over a year since my boas were diagnosed and put down.

I am religious about cleaning - I even disinfect and/or change tongs between feedings and I never stick my fingers in waterbowls.

You have to be careful making blanket statements. There have been people who have IBD and have lost their entire collections. There have been some who haven't.

I went into my vet's office last year with a head full of preconcieved notions about IBD that I had gleaned off of the Net - most were variations on the same theme. Almost everything that is the conventional wisdom on this disease is just a bit off. It was only after talking to the lab where they looked for the inclusion bodies (and ultimately did the necropsies) and some of the researchers that I got a clearer understanding of what IBD is and how it can manifest itself.

I find it sad that both a veterinary manual and a quoted study list potential infection rates of between 33 to 50% and people poo-poo those numbers.

Again - I stress that Jacobson has been very reachable and has corresponded with some people on this forum. Instead of getting your knowledge from second hand sources (including me) talk to one of the foremost researchers of this disease and ask him your tough questions.

just a though, but perhaps we could create a list of questions that we could send off to the ppl behind the study. and then sticky the reply somewhere so its there for future record and to dispell the misinformation that seems to fly around this hobby too well

By RTB, are we talking about true red tails or all BC subspecies? Does anyone know if there is a difference in the number of incidences of IBD in Hog Isles versus others? I can live without a RTB but I really would like to get a Hog at some point. BRBs and Rubber Boas are high on my wish list too but I may just stick with pythons :(. I find it interesting that Europe seems to have higher rates of IBD when it seems by the numbers that IBD originates in RTBs. Is this a fact or hearsay?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nixer

just a though, but perhaps we could create a list of questions that we could send off to the ppl behind the study. and then sticky the reply somewhere so its there for future record and to dispell the misinformation that seems to fly around this hobby too well

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I would start with these:

(1) What is the true incidence rate of IBD in boas? If a number is not available can you explain why not?

(2) How long can an animal be asymptomatic?

(3) Have you had any control animals sent to you for study that ended up being asymptomatic carriers?

(4) Do you know of any boa breeders that actively screen their animals?

(5) Are any boa breeders contributing to IBD research?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I would start with these:

(1) What is the true incidence rate of IBD in boas? If a number is not available can you explain why not?

(2) How long can an animal be asymptomatic?

(3) Have you had any control animals sent to you for study that ended up being asymptomatic carriers?

(4) Do you know of any boa breeders that actively screen their animals?

(5) Are any boa breeders contributing to IBD research?

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I sent him an e-mail. Got a response back less than 2 hours later. Got an answer to every question listed above.

Seriously folks, do you want to repeat the same half-truths about IBD or do you want solid information from someone who is arguably the the person leading the research?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I sent him an e-mail. Got a response back less than 2 hours later. Got an answer to every question listed above.

Seriously folks, do you want to repeat the same half-truths about IBD or do you want solid information from someone who is arguably the the person leading the research?

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do share:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nixer

do share:D

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Thou hast a PM.

To clarify:

Over year ago when we were dealing with IBD I corresponded with Dr. Jacobson (among others).

I did not save those e-mails.

Last week I corresponded with him again, restating what happened to my two dwarf BCIs and asking him the questions posted in this thread. Less than two hours later he responded.

I did not inform him that I would be posting the e-mail - so I'm not going to. I will gladly share the crux of the answers with anyone who is interested via PM.

im really surprised that more ppl are not inquiring about this

70% --- I'll be reading everyone's thoughts on this.

I had no clue that it was that common. I've read in magazines and books about it. Scarey!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Apparently not long enough. :cool: So, who here does have both Boas & BPs (aside from those who've already stated they do) - and how did you approach this issue?

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Because ball pythons are my first love, I have made the choice NOT to keep any boas, though I do like them a lot. I just am not willing to take the risk with my ball python collection for one boa (as I wouldn't breed boas).

Skiploader - could you please PM me the answers Jacobson provided to you? I'd be very interested in seeing them and learning more myself!

Could I also please get that email, Skiploder? Somebody recently offered me a boa, as I mentioned earlier, but now I am definitely having second thoughts. Would love to see those answers! :oops: