Would you breed her

I am debating on whether or not to breed one of my females this season, She is 2 years old and 1179g (empty). Would you breed her this season or wait another year.

She is at the very low end of the breeding weight so yes you could make the attempt.

If she takes she'll be perfectly fine. Once she starts developing follicles she will start slamming food and most likely put on some weight.

well thats good news for me.. cause my two heaviest girls weigh 1300g and 1199g on empty. I tried them both and the 1199g girl locked with the male. So I just may have some pins this year :D good luck with your breeding plans.

I'd give it a shot, What is her hatch date?

wow 1179 is almost exact weight to the gram of my girl. did u steal my snake? :mad: :snake: :mad:

are you going with the 1200 gram rule?

i voted no, because personally i want to start breeding my snakes at 3 years or 1500 grams. But that doesn't mean that my way is the better way :P

if you do decide to breed her good luck!

Alot of people will argue that if they are under 3 years or under 1500 grams they are too young/small to breed. But this is how I see it:

1) In the wild they don't get "arranged marriages" like in captivity, they find eachother during mating season no matter the size.
2) Some people have had males way under 800 grams(preferred breeding size) lock up with females and have the female go onto produce eggs.
3) I just feel that if she is locking, ovulating, and laying eggs and is at least over 1000 grams you should be fine, I wouldn't go lower than 1000 grams with a female but that's just my opinion I'm sure there have been females under 1000 grams who have produced.

It's all just your preference and what you think is right. I mean say you have a Albino female who is a bad eater and is 4 years old but only 900 grams, who is to say that she is still too small for breeding, She might not lay 10 eggs for you but she might give you 4 eggs.

Good Luck with the breeding and if you do choose to breed her this year let us know how it goes!

Just because an animal can breed doesn't mean it should. I know of 12 year old human females who have gotten pregnant. I wouldn't breed a BP till its 3rd season and over 1500 grams. At the end of the day I am not judging anyone who does any different but you did ask. For the record I have never breed any snakes. I have breed other animals before and with snakes as with any animal there is always a "when they can" and "when they should" criteria. You have to ask yourself, do you want to be someone who breeds when they can or when they should. I won't even breed a female mouse under 12 weeks old, and they are feeders.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Just because an animal can breed doesn't mean it should. I know of 12 year old human females who have gotten pregnant. I wouldn't breed a BP till its 3rd season and over 1500 grams. At the end of the day I am not judging anyone who does any different but you did ask. For the record I have never breed any snakes. I have breed other animals before and with snakes as with any animal there is always a "when they can" and "when they should" criteria. You have to ask yourself, do you want to be someone who breeds when they can or when they should. I won't even breed a female mouse under 12 weeks old, and they are feeders.

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Exactly, personal preference.

I voted NO

I've always read 3 yrs and 1500. But like was said in the wild things just happen. I know 2 yrs is possible but from what i understand you'll get a "minimum clutch" . 1500 i think was always more of a safety issue.

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Originally Posted by nicktreb

I'd give it a shot, What is her hatch date?

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June of 07 I think. She is my longest owned. I have two other normal females that at 2200g+ one is pushing 2500g that I am planning on mating with a 1000g+ proven yellow belly. I was just considering breeding the 3rd female to get a few normals to trade or sell.

I wouldnt.

Would "I"? Nope, I wouldn't. Adam has posted before about breeding smaller girls, and while they may go, they'll lay smaller clutches, and tend to always lay smaller clutches the rest of their lives, no matter how large they get. But when he waits for them to be bigger for their first breeding, they consistently lay larger clutches. I'm not in such a hurry that I need to breed them smaller than 1500 grams. I personally like my girls to be at least 1800 grams.

I had a 3000 gram virgin lay 11 eggs her first season.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Would "I"? Nope, I wouldn't. Adam has posted before about breeding smaller girls, and while they may go, they'll lay smaller clutches, and tend to always lay smaller clutches the rest of their lives, no matter how large they get. But when he waits for them to be bigger for their first breeding, they consistently lay larger clutches. I'm not in such a hurry that I need to breed them smaller than 1500 grams. I personally like my girls to be at least 1800 grams.

I had a 3000 gram virgin lay 11 eggs her first season.

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i was thinking about that thread and couldnt find it, thank you for bringing it up! its (one of several) reasons why all my girls are getting another year to chill and stuff their faces with ratty goodness.

I chose no , but that is my personal preference . Good luck on whatever you choose .;)

June of 07 so that would make this her 3rd winter. I don't see why not, if shes ready she'll breed, if not then she won't.

Consider how very SMALL a snake under 1500 grams actually is, why would you want to do such a thing? For 2 or 3 measly eggs? Wait until next year, and get 6 or 7, instead of consigning her lay 3 or 4 egg clutches her whole life.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Consider how very SMALL a snake under 1500 grams actually is, why would you want to do such a thing? For 2 or 3 measly eggs? Wait until next year, and get 6 or 7, instead of consigning her lay 3 or 4 egg clutches her whole life.

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i partly agree here. as for the laying 3-4 egg clutch her whole life i do not.
this past year i got more than 4 eggs from a female that came to me as a proven breeder which was small and only laid 4 eggs with the previous owner.

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Originally Posted by derrabe

I was just considering breeding the 3rd female to get a few normals to trade or sell.

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I would like to change my answer to hell no. If you are breeding this snake with the intended purpose of getting normals to sell or trade I think you are definitely making a mistake. We just saw a thread about culling normals. The market is flooded with them. I would most definitely wait.

If the market were flooded with them, they wouldn't be importing them from Africa.

The market is flooded with them here, not sure about elsewhere, but they are hard to impossible to sell for any amount around here.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I would like to change my answer to hell no. If you are breeding this snake with the intended purpose of getting normals to sell or trade I think you are definitely making a mistake. We just saw a thread about culling normals. The market is flooded with them. I would most definitely wait.

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i wouldnt risk it just to breed normals!

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If the market were flooded with them, they wouldn't be importing them from Africa.

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you got that right. last year i got a few and i must say they were hard to get this year.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

The market is flooded with them here, not sure about elsewhere, but they are hard to impossible to sell for any amount around here.

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i dont know where your looking, but just petco and petsmart have major standing orders every year for pretty much as much as they can get!
your also not going to get 50$ a piece for them either in a wholesale market especially when big orders of ch babies can go for as little as 7$ each unstarted. i have a wholesaler that would gladly take every normal i can produce, but then again your not going to get much more than 10$ each selling to a wholesaler. now to a petstore you could get more, but then your doing the leg work lining it all up

I have read someone on here say a Female mated in her second year will produce around 4/5 eggs and no matter how big she gets in the future will only ever have a small clutch. Not saying its hard fact but PERSONALLY I always wait until my corns are atleased 3 years old so will do the same with royals.

Have some patience, dont be in a rush to just breed her.

Also to many normal royals? That is 100% NOT the case here. Not everyone has hundreds of pounds to pay out for a morph so normal hatchlings go quickly (for about £40 each in most cases, unless sexed, then females go for £50). Even Normal corns still sell, Even if they are only £15 each, they still sell. I know of a shop that sells normal corn babies for £40 and they still sell them. I think there will always be people who will buy normals.

So basically I don't think there is any problem with breeding for normals if thats what you want to do lol

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dont know where your looking, but just petco and petsmart have major standing orders every year for pretty much as much as they can get!
your also not going to get 50$ a piece for them either in a wholesale market especially when big orders of ch babies can go for as little as 7$ each unstarted.

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I'm not looking, I'm selling, a hatchling I produced, for $20, and no takers.
I have given away numerous males this year, they just don't sell well.

Your problem is either local, or you're not trying to sell them in the right way. They aren't going to be marketed the same way morphs are.

I produced mostly co-doms, and I have only 1.1 normals left from all of my clutches. They were, in fact, the first out the door! People wanted my normal males as pets. I put them up on Kijiji, I sold some to a good local pet store, and some went to co-workers of roomates, friends of co-workers of roomates, etc etc. I sold 2 of them at the local expo--and only one het male, and no other morphs, there (not the greatest for cash, but I did make a good trade, so no crying here).
I sell my normal males for 25, and people are overjoyed to buy them. The market here for normals seems to be plenty good, even though the economy is depressed and people are buying a lot less in general.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Your problem is either local, or you're not trying to sell them in the right way. They aren't going to be marketed the same way morphs are.

I produced mostly co-doms, and I have only 1.1 normals left from all of my clutches. They were, in fact, the first out the door! People wanted my normal males as pets. I put them up on Kijiji, I sold some to a good local pet store, and some went to co-workers of roomates, friends of co-workers of roomates, etc etc. I sold 2 of them at the local expo--and only one het male, and no other morphs, there (not the greatest for cash, but I did make a good trade, so no crying here).
I sell my normal males for 25, and people are overjoyed to buy them. The market here for normals seems to be plenty good, even though the economy is depressed and people are buying a lot less in general.

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i had g/f put some on on CL and kijiji for me. id dont usually wholesale them unless im out of rackspace or im down to running a rack for just a few animals. either way around here i see them at the shows for usually 15-20$

I didn't really see what others were selling normals for at the show--but mine come with ID sheets, feeding records, care sheet, and registration on iHerp's lineage base. I suspect because they are fat, healthy, and obviously treated just as well as my morphs, this attracts more buyers...
I can't post on Craigslist, either, because I am a business.

Well after reading everything in the thread, I think I am gonna hold off on breeding her this season. I was kind of already leaning that way but just wanted to see what everyone else thought. There is no rush and around here I still see normals for sale but they are only going for 15-20 bucks. Thanks all for the input. I did learn something from this thread though, I did not know there was an age at which a snake should breed at I was under the impression if they where 1200g+ they were big enough to breed fairly safely. I also knew that 1200 is ok but 1500+ is preferred. If you should wait till 3 yrs why do people power feed and get them up to size within a 1-2 years?

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dont know where your looking, but just petco and petsmart have major standing orders every year for pretty much as much as they can get!
your also not going to get 50$ a piece for them either in a wholesale market especially when big orders of ch babies can go for as little as 7$ each unstarted. i have a wholesaler that would gladly take every normal i can produce, but then again your not going to get much more than 10$ each selling to a wholesaler. now to a petstore you could get more, but then your doing the leg work lining it all up

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I think you are making my point for me. If you 10$ to 20% dollars a snake hardly makes it worth your time and effort, let alone the time and effort of your female. You are looking at making maybe 150% for the whole clutch. How much does it cost you to feed your female up before and after laying her clutch, plus starting the babies, hatchrite or whatever you use to incubate, electricity to run the incubator. Then all the leg work to broker the deal. At 150$ before you take out expenses I can't think of a solid reason to bread a female even a little too soon unless you are trying to prove her out and even then I would say wait.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I think you are making my point for me. If you 10$ to 20% dollars a snake hardly makes it worth your time and effort, let alone the time and effort of your female. You are looking at making maybe 150% for the whole clutch. How much does it cost you to feed your female up before and after laying her clutch, plus starting the babies, hatchrite or whatever you use to incubate, electricity to run the incubator. Then all the leg work to broker the deal. At 150$ before you take out expenses I can't think of a solid reason to bread a female even a little too soon unless you are trying to prove her out and even then I would say wait.

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no it does not prove your point. in a wholesale market due to the price of imports many many large pet stores will only pay the lowest they can. do i agree with it no, but when your running a resale business you must attempt to buy cheap and sell high inorder to turn a profit. i do not breed normals to make normals i breed for what i want/need first then breed for what i think the market will be. not many in this industry put a value on their time and unfortunately many more do not value all animals. when i choose to wholesale off normals its because i have to for one reason or another.

now lets just say you have a wholesaler who offers you 10$ a piece started
you could take that or you could not and feed them and house them till they sell, but now lets figure in just the feeding
40 cents for a mouse it would take 25 mice to eatup 10$
now thats just feeders.
so if you go 5 meals then wholesale your looking at 2$ in feeders then you would have 8$ for everything else.


currently at the shows around me i have seen many many normals for sale for 15-20$

at 15$ your looking at 37.5 feeders
so just feeders alone you would have to sell them within 37 weeks

either way your not making money, but if your trying to make money on normals of either sex its not going to happen. even if you raise up normal females the math does not work out. just with the price of feeders. now if you start factoring in codoms it pays some but not ALOT

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Originally Posted by nixer

no it does not prove your point. in a wholesale market due to the price of imports many many large pet stores will only pay the lowest they can. do i agree with it no, but when your running a resale business you must attempt to buy cheap and sell high inorder to turn a profit. i do not breed normals to make normals i breed for what i want/need first then breed for what i think the market will be. not many in this industry put a value on their time and unfortunately many more do not value all animals. when i choose to wholesale off normals its because i have to for one reason or another.

now lets just say you have a wholesaler who offers you 10$ a piece started
you could take that or you could not and feed them and house them till they sell, but now lets figure in just the feeding
40 cents for a mouse it would take 25 mice to eatup 10$
now thats just feeders.
so if you go 5 meals then wholesale your looking at 2$ in feeders then you would have 8$ for everything else.


currently at the shows around me i have seen many many normals for sale for 15-20$

at 15$ your looking at 37.5 feeders
so just feeders alone you would have to sell them within 37 weeks

either way your not making money, but if your trying to make money on normals of either sex its not going to happen. even if you raise up normal females the math does not work out. just with the price of feeders. now if you start factoring in codoms it pays some but not ALOT

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Hold up nixer. I am pretty sure we both agree that in this case the OP should not breed the snake.

I understand the basics of supply and demand. I am not really sure what you are trying to say above. My comment was that the market is flooded with normals. So far you have confirmed what I stated. That normals are sold by breeders for 15 to 20 dollars. So if by your own admission you can not make money selling normals. Now if something isn't profitable that tells me that there is a problem with either the supply being too high or the demand being too low. We know that the demand is not something that can easily be affected so that leaves demand. Now WingedWolfPsion says.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If the market were flooded with them, they wouldn't be importing them from Africa.

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This is the furthest thing from logic I have seen in a while. Imported snakes is the reason the market is flooded not evidence that its not. In fact when you have a market that is flooded, thats when you see the most imports. Countries where people make much less on average import to the US. Many BP's are imported from Ghana. 28% of Ghana's population makes less than $1.25 a day. So you may think "why would they import normal BP's if the market were flooded" The answer is because you are paying people less than $1.25 a day to round them up in Ghana and shipping to the US is not as expensive as you would think. So does anyone have any good evidence that the market (in the USA) is not flooded?

I'd wait till she weighs around 1500 grams

lance