Het axanthic markers?

I have done some searching to see if the het axanthics have any kind of markers and can't seem to find anything. I was wondering if any of you that have het axanthics have noticed any kind of traits that make them stand out a bit? I just picked up a 1200 gram 66% het axanthic female last night and noticed that she is real dark with real high yellows and whites on her sides. Is this a trait that any of you have noticed also? My buddy has a spotnose het axanthic that we are going to try and prove her out with. Worse case scenario we get spotnoses. Darn!

If there was markers it would be a co-dom trait, not recessive.

sorry, only "markers" are the pied rings and their not reliable.

My Het Axanthics are both completely different and neither have any markers.

My 07 Het Male from 8ball:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...HAX07M-012.jpg

My 08 Het Girl from 8ball:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...HAX08F-011.jpg

I'm hoping to see a few silver and black hatchlings this season. :please:

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

I'm hoping to see a few silver and black hatchlings this season. :please:

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I'm hoping you do too James, lol.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I'm hoping you do too James, lol.

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Could make for some interesting trades. ;)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If there was markers it would be a co-dom trait, not recessive.

sorry, only "markers" are the pied rings and their not reliable.

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Not necessarily true.

What line is the axanthic? VPI axanthic hets do have a fairly reliable marker in my experience.

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Not necessarily true.

What line is the axanthic? VPI axanthic hets do have a fairly reliable marker in my experience.

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She is a 66% het VPI I also just picked up(on breeder loan from a buddy) a Spotnose 100% het VPI Axanthic. Come on Axanthic Spotnose:banana:

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Not necessarily true.

What line is the axanthic? VPI axanthic hets do have a fairly reliable marker in my experience.

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My hets are VPI. They are both pictured above. What are the markers? :confused:

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Not necessarily true.

What line is the axanthic? VPI axanthic hets do have a fairly reliable marker in my experience.

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If they have markers, then its a co-dom morph by definition

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If they have markers, then its a co-dom morph by definition

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My thoughts exactly. Both of my Hets have nothing in common. One is black back and standard dark normal, while the female has a very interesting color to her.

Nothing marker like about them. :gj:

I agree that if a het has "markers" that are 100% reliable...then it's not a recessive trait, but a co-dominant one. Yellow bellies for instance...most of them look pretty "normal", especially to an untrained eye...but they do have very distinct characteristics that make it possible to tell what they are. And they do affect other morphs quite distinctly, as well.

But "markers" in the general sense, can apply without considering the animal co-dominant. They just aren't a reliable gauge. Like the belly striping on het pieds. Some have it...some don't. Some that seem to have it aren't het pieds. BUT...if you're looking at a clutch of possible hets...you know you'll key into those markers if you can.

I don't know of any reliable "markers" for het axanthics...but I DO know that sometimes (not always) they can affect another morph they have been combined with. A pastel-het-VPI may not look like a regular pastel. But, like the markers, this isn't a reliable trait to look for...and I don't remember enough about it to talk in more detail about it. :oops:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

sorry, only "markers" are the pied rings and their not reliable.

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This is sooo not true.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

This is sooo not true.

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Then what else is there Pat?

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Then what else is there Pat?

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http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81...an/Markers.jpg


:D:D:D:P

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81...an/Markers.jpg


:D:D:D:P

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Ass. :rofl:

Walked right into that one.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If they have markers, then its a co-dom morph by definition

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When the question was asked about markers, then what does stand out on all of the ones that I have seen stands true. The pied "marker" is a perfect example. It is not always the case but generally holds true. That is why I asked what line of axanthic since I only have experience with VPI. Goff if you will, but it is your loss.

It is not the body or a blackback appearance. It is subtle. ;)

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Originally Posted by MPenn

When the question was asked about markers, then what does stand out on all of the ones that I have seen stands true. The pied "marker" is a perfect example. It is not always the case but generally holds true. That is why I asked what line of axanthic since I only have experience with VPI. Goff if you will, but it is your loss.

It is not the body or a blackback appearance. It is subtle. ;)

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What from your experience is it then?

I will look at my pair and tell you if it holds true.

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Originally Posted by MPenn

When the question was asked about markers, then what does stand out on all of the ones that I have seen stands true. The pied "marker" is a perfect example. It is not always the case but generally holds true. That is why I asked what line of axanthic since I only have experience with VPI. Goff if you will, but it is your loss.

It is not the body or a blackback appearance. It is subtle. ;)

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Alright now you have me spinning circles here.:confused: Are you trying to tell me that it is a lack of something?

I'd love to know too. I picked my 66% chance het VPI axanthic + 66% chance het albino male based on the black back reduced pattern rumor a while back. The daughter I picked to hold back this year is also fairly reduced pattern and was the brighter more contrast (low yellow?) one. But it's a long shot she has the VPI axanthic gene much less both even if I knew what to look for on the VPI axanthic side.

If anyone has any good pointers for het stripes I could use that too! I’ve got three possible possible double het albino stripe girls and not sure I want to keep that many (but probably will).

Also I'd like to point out that recessive and co-dominant are neat categories people made up that fit many mutations but nature isn't bound to follow them and I think piebald is a good example of a mutation that is part way in-between recessive and co-dominant.

Both of my 100% het VPI Axanthics have light head spots but so do all my other hets (pied, hypo, clown). Don't know if that helps or not.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...hic_-_comp.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...hic_-_comp.jpg

Here is a couple pics of her. She has a bit of retained shed(she had it when I got her on Sunday). I kinda looks like she might have a spot nut we'll see when I get that shed off her. Shes still settling in, I will deal with it in a few days.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...d/P1000186.jpg

Kinda looks like she has the het pied marker along her tail.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...d/P1000187.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...d/P1000188.jpg

My het hypo girl has the 'typical' head spot.

Still waiting to see what the markers are.....

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

My het hypo girl has the 'typical' head spot.

Still waiting to see what the markers are.....

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x2

Jsmorphs2, I see it in your second pic posted.

Twistedtails, I need to see clear pics of the snakes head from a top view.

It is not just light spots on the head but rather a distinct pattern. Being that het albinos and other morphs have light head patterns, the marker can be skewed or masked by the presence of another "marker".

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Jsmorphs2, I see it in your second pic posted.

Twistedtails, I need to see clear pics of the snakes head from a top view.

It is not just light spots on the head but rather a distinct pattern. Being that het albinos and other morphs have light head patterns, the marker can be skewed or masked by the presence of another "marker".

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What exactly does the marker look like? You are being very vague....

I think Pat is the only one who has identified the "true" markers.

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Jsmorphs2, I see it in your second pic posted.

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But both are 100% hets. Is the top pic just not clear enough or do you not see the pattern there?

Unfortunately, all it takes is one snake to prove that there is not a true marker, just like the black stripes near the tail of some het Pieds.

The two yellow spots on the end of the nose?

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Both of my 100% het VPI Axanthics have light head spots but so do all my other hets (pied, hypo, clown). Don't know if that helps or not.

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I think about 50% of my collection, morph or not has a light head spot

Bringing this one back to the top as im interested to see if theres any further info on any axanthic markers??:)

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81...an/Markers.jpg


:D:D:D:P

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LOL ouch... :rofl::rofl:

This is what I know from my nearly 10 years experience with Pieds, het Pieds, and combos. Animals from my line have reliable markers to indicate they are het Pied. Those of you that say there is no reliable het Pied marker must not have much experience producing them or their combos. If you would like to see pictures, I would be happy to post dozens of them.

As for het Axanthic markers, I can only comment on the VPI line.....and yes there are indications of hets at least when combined with Pastel and Spider, and even more so with Bumble Bees. This was discovered very early on by some of the bigger guys when the first Pastels and Bees het Axanthic were produced. I have seen it first hand in my own collection the last two seasons. With Pastel, Spider, and Bee het axanthics you have a reduction of yellow giving the animals an overall lighter appearance at hatching.

I really don't care if it is recessive or co-dom, but it's getting a little redundant of some people discrediting the het markers, especially the het Pieds, when there are countless small and LARGE breeders that have proven them over and over......Pete Kahl being the first to notice and he held all of his possible hets back while selling all of his 100% hets. He is the true king of Pieds for those that don't know.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81...an/Markers.jpg


:D:D:D:P

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Finally!!! someone with humor!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing025.gif

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

This is what I know from my nearly 10 years experience with Pieds, het Pieds, and combos. Animals from my line have reliable markers to indicate they are het Pied. Those of you that say there is no reliable het Pied marker must not have much experience producing them or their combos. If you would like to see pictures, I would be happy to post dozens of them.

As for het Axanthic markers, I can only comment on the VPI line.....and yes there are indications of hets at least when combined with Pastel and Spider, and even more so with Bumble Bees. This was discovered very early on by some of the bigger guys when the first Pastels and Bees het Axanthic were produced. I have seen it first hand in my own collection the last two seasons. With Pastel, Spider, and Bee het axanthics you have a reduction of yellow giving the animals an overall lighter appearance at hatching.

I really don't care if it is recessive or co-dom, but it's getting a little redundant of some people discrediting the het markers, especially the het Pieds, when there are countless small and LARGE breeders that have proven them over and over......Pete Kahl being the first to notice and he held all of his possible hets back while selling all of his 100% hets. He is the true king of Pieds for those that don't know.

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Thanks for the info! I couldn't agree more on het pieds. Actually the reason I brought it up is I have a 100% het pied poss axanthic female, who with any luck will be breeding this season. Thought I would see if there was any progress in finding markers. I will do it the right way and breed her and find out :).

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

As for het Axanthic markers, I can only comment on the VPI line.....and yes there are indications of hets at least when combined with Pastel and Spider, and even more so with Bumble Bees. This was discovered very early on by some of the bigger guys when the first Pastels and Bees het Axanthic were produced. I have seen it first hand in my own collection the last two seasons. With Pastel, Spider, and Bee het axanthics you have a reduction of yellow giving the animals an overall lighter appearance at hatching.

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I have no where near your experience, but I admit I was surprised at how light this little girl came out (the only het that came out of my first and only clutch, the others were visuals), and also how ill tempered she is!
Bee 100% het VPI
http://i1029.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7fb2ee7c.jpg
http://i1029.photobucket.com/albums/...psad4df5b0.jpg

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just because a recessive trait can have "markers" doesn't make it codominant. A "marker" is not the same thing as a visual phenotype. Albino is only albino if it has BOTH copies of the recessive trait.
Piebald is only Piebald when it has BOTH copies of said recessive trait. These affects or "markers" can be caused by pleiotropy or even epistasis as well by many other reasons.
Albinos, piebalds, clowns, etc. all produce a recessive phenotype that is only visible in the homozygous genotype.

We have a pair of het axanthics and neither one of them looks any different than a normal.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just because a recessive trait can have "markers" doesn't make it codominant. A "marker" is not the same thing as a visual phenotype. Albino is only albino if it has BOTH copies of the recessive trait.
Piebald is only Piebald when it has BOTH copies of said recessive trait. These affects or "markers" can be caused by pleiotropy or even epistasis as well by many other reasons.
Albinos, piebalds, clowns, etc. all produce a recessive phenotype that is only visible in the homozygous genotype.

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Based off of what you say here then a Lesser is not co-dominant it is recessive... Reasoning behind is a BEL is only a BEL it is not a lesser... Same can be said for most co-dom morphs out there. It has to have both copies to show the "super" form... How is being a lesser any different than having het pied markers that change the appearance of the snake? Or any others listed? They all change the look of the animal.