the spider wobble

hi everyone!
hope you all are enjoying the awesome fall weather-- (especially if youre in so cal).
im posting because im curious about the spider wobble. is it hereditary? can it "hurt" or disable the snake? any info would be much appreciated. thanks!
j:snake:

A good search will yeild years of debate. But to quickly answer your questions.

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Is it hereditary?

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Yes

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Can it "hurt" or disable the snake?

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if its a severe enough case that can feed or drink.. Yes.

thanks- sent the admin an email last night asking to take this down. i didnt realize how many threads there are on this subject. but again- thanks for you time!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

if its a severe enough case that can feed or drink.. Yes.

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I've never heard of a spider exhibiting a wobble severe enough to cause issues with general living, but if a case exists or has existed, I'd love to know about it. It wouldn't surprise me, I've just never heard of it before.

And to the OP, just because a question has been asked before doesn't mean we're not happy to answer it again :D Sometimes search functions can be overwhelming with the amount of info you are presented with.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I've never heard of a spider exhibiting a wobble severe enough to cause issues with general living, but if a case exists or has existed, I'd love to know about it. It wouldn't surprise me, I've just never heard of it before.

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Nor have I and yet still people think it some sort of debilitating problem..

Just saying

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I've never heard of a spider exhibiting a wobble severe enough to cause issues with general living, but if a case exists or has existed, I'd love to know about it. It wouldn't surprise me, I've just never heard of it before.

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I haven't personally heard of it either -- but at the same time, I'd imagine that if a baby was born that bad, it'd probably just be quietly shuffled into the freezer rather than paraded around on the forums.

That having been said, of the two spiders and one bee I've now owned only one has ever shown any neuro signs at all (a spider, once, after striking at a rat).

What I have experienced with my spider is a head shake... When she holds her head off the ground it will shake ever so slightly. Picture someone with an unsteady hand holding it out level, their hand will shake a bit. This is what her head looks like.

She also likes to look at me "upside down" when I hold her in my hand.:)

So far these little quirks have shaped her personality and have not affected her well being.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

A good search will yeild years of debate. But to quickly answer your questions.

Yes

if its a severe enough case that can feed or drink.. Yes.

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How can you say it's hereditary ???

I don't think we know so far. Looks like it's related to the Spider gene. Don't think it's a gene in itself, otherwise we could have pull it out of the spider and could have got it in other morph. Which so far didn't happen.

But we can say it's hereditary, in the case that it can be pass from any offspring that have the spider gene. Or that the Wobble is part of the spider gene.

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Originally Posted by Watever

How can you say it's hereditary ???

I don't think we know so far. Looks like it's related to the Spider gene. Don't think it's a gene in itself, otherwise we could have pull it out of the spider and could have got it in other morph. Which so far didn't happen.

But we can say it's hereditary, in the case that it can be pass from any offspring that have the spider gene. Or that the Wobble is part of the spider gene.

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Main Entry: he·red·i·tary
Pronunciation: \hə-ˈre-də-ˌter-ē\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English hereditarie, from Latin hereditarius, from hereditas
Date: 15th century

1 a : genetically transmitted or transmittable from parent to offspring b : characteristic of or fostered by one's predecessors

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Even if it is only displayed in the spider gene.. the fact that the original spider displayed it and as a result so do further generations.

Makes it hereditary.

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Originally Posted by Watever

How can you say it's hereditary ???

I don't think we know so far. Looks like it's related to the Spider gene. Don't think it's a gene in itself, otherwise we could have pull it out of the spider and could have got it in other morph. Which so far didn't happen.

But we can say it's hereditary, in the case that it can be pass from any offspring that have the spider gene. Or that the Wobble is part of the spider gene.

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its assumed that the issues are associated with the spider gene, normal sibs (ie those without the spider gene) won't exhibit it because, they dont have the spider gene.

That said, i've heard second hand that there are normals that exhibit some of the same problems like corkscrewing and head wobbles .

In his book "The Complete Ball Python" Kevin states that spiders tend to have a unique personality compared to other BP's. I didn't really believe it when I read it a few years back, but I do now. I have a spider and a bee both with a case of corkscrew and wobble, and they are by far the most friendly outgoing snakes I have ever owned.

I've honestly never heard of a normal displaying the wobble trait--nor any other morphs from spider clutches. I think it's another good nail in the coffin for the idea that the wobble can be separated from the spider gene.

If there are normals that wobble--have they anything to do with spiders in their lineage, or is it just a random rare occurrence? I think folks would have spoken up loudly before now if spider sibs were showing wobbles. None of mine ever have.

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Originally Posted by Bobsean

What I have experienced with my spider is a head shake... When she holds her head off the ground it will shake ever so slightly. Picture someone with an unsteady hand holding it out level, their hand will shake a bit. This is what her head looks like.

She also likes to look at me "upside down" when I hold her in my hand.:)

So far these little quirks have shaped her personality and have not affected her well being.

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My male mojave does it as well--but it's so minute I didn't even consider it being a form of the head wobble. He has no spider gene in him as far as I'm aware of.

Could be a random occurrence.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I've honestly never heard of a normal displaying the wobble trait--nor any other morphs from spider clutches. I think it's another good nail in the coffin for the idea that the wobble can be separated from the spider gene.

If there are normals that wobble--have they anything to do with spiders in their lineage, or is it just a random rare occurrence? I think folks would have spoken up loudly before now if spider sibs were showing wobbles. None of mine ever have.

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ive read threads here about bees that wobble mostly (other than spiders i mean) , i haven't heard it in other spider-plus morphs but i dont see posts about them very often in regards to this topic.

As far as the normals that wobble, i'd think its an unrelated event to the spiders.

Perhaps a poll is in order for more info?

I have a spider with a severe head wobble and he cant even get a rat off the tongs. i have to hold the rat by the spiders neck and when he feels it he'll start constricting. other than that he eats and drinks fine and is a beast of a breeder.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

its assumed that the issues are associated with the spider gene, normal sibs (ie those without the spider gene) won't exhibit it because, they dont have the spider gene.

That said, i've heard second hand that there are normals that exhibit some of the same problems like corkscrewing and head wobbles .

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I've also heard the same thing - but those normals weren't necessarily a result of a spider breeding.

Every spider cross that I've seen in person myself also displays some degree of wobble, even if it's as minute as the funny head tilt. IMO, it's definitely linked to the spider gene.

All combo morphs that carry the spider gene are just as prone to 'wobble' as plain spiders are.

Sometimes ordinary hatchlings will shiver or tremor when they're stalking prey, but not to the degree that spiders do.

I think that 'wobble' is misleading, as a term--the problem includes far more than just wobbling itself. It can be all or any single one of the following:

A tendency to tilt the head slightly to one side.

A tendency to spend time with the head upside down, and be slow to right the head (though they appear to know which way is up eventually).

A Parkinsons-like tremor when the head is held up (wobble).

Spinning (coiling in rapid circles abnormally, often when the head is touched).

Missing--they are prone to miss prey on the first strike. All balls can do this sometimes, but spiders may do it frequently--they generally turn and come right back for it, though.

well i have a male 08 spider he stated the wobbles a month after getting him i got him at a show it was a hatchling i think he might have had 1 meal. now hes about 250g but he has the wobbles bad when ever he moves he starts the wobbles. eating no problem. so he will be a pet for me so i will just buy a bumble bee. it makes me worry about the spider i've seen some nice spiders at shows but to scared to get one.:tears:

Don't be surprised when your bumblebee wobbles too.

yeah thats what im worried about to i had some people say not to mess with them. Then some say with double or triple morphs it does'nt show.:confused:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Don't be surprised when your bumblebee wobbles too.

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Yep they do it too.

How many times has this topic been ran into the ground OR blown way out of proportion...Seriously..IMO If it were that BIG of a deal as in a life threatening OR debilitating neuro problem, Would we have the tons of spiders throughout the hobby as we do today? Not to mention then AWESOME spidey combos? Really... Think about it, Would people actually be willing to lay down a grand and up for the combos? OR would people continue to produce them and the combos? I know I am...

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

How many times has this topic been ran into the ground OR blown way out of proportion...Seriously..IMO If it were that BIG of a deal as in a life threatening OR debilitating neuro problem, Would we have the tons of spiders throughout the hobby as we do today? Not to mention then AWESOME spidey combos? Really... Think about it, Would people actually be willing to lay down a grand and up for the combos? OR would people continue to produce them and the combos? I know I am...

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It's an interesting topic and people want to discuss it...

Honestly, if i had a problem with the wobbling, i wouldnt work with spiders or their combos and i know there are some breeders who probably dont. Just like some people wont work with caramels because of the kinking. (I'm waiting for the Ultramel project to get bigger, I dont really want to work with caramels, for example). But i DO have a spider and i DO plan to breed her. Its a choice just like everything else in the hobby.

I think we should start a poll to see if other peoples spider and spider crosses exhibit the wobbling/tilty/whatever problem. But i just love polls. lol

I have read threads where people say there line of spider does not have the wobbles or spins, anyone believe this?

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Originally Posted by Clear

I have read threads where people say there line of spider does not have the wobbles or spins, anyone believe this?

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i dont think that can be true considering there is only one line of spiders. They all go back to the original male that NERD has i think. (it is NERD right?)

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Originally Posted by Clear

I have read threads where people say there line of spider does not have the wobbles or spins, anyone believe this?

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Naaa I've seen a few spider's that I thought my have missed that little tweak..but you watch them long enough it shows up..

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Originally Posted by Clear

I have read threads where people say there line of spider does not have the wobbles or spins, anyone believe this?

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

i dont think that can be true considering there is only one line of spiders. They all go back to the original male that NERD has i think. (it is NERD right?)

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I don't know about lines, but I do know the animals here & their spider parents did not wobble. It's my effort at seeing if I can reduce the defect. AND yes it's a defect, not like some of the T+ but I won't work with Caramels due to the kinking. Do all spiders wobble? No. That means there may be a way to improve the morph or decrease the defect. And so I'll give it a shot.

I've spent decades working with various animals & I even worked with homozygous lethal mammals. With some mutations come challenges. You can embrace it, avoid it or try to improve it.

Ok so what should we do i like the morphs that they make but i don't want start a project and sell a wobbler to some one. So what do u do? Where do u buy?

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Originally Posted by bxsrt8mag

Ok so what should we do i like the morphs that they make but i don't want start a project and sell a wobbler to some one. So what do u do? Where do u buy?

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be aware that non wobblers can produce wobblers and vise versa. Find a breeder you like, talk to them. Do they have babies? do they wobble? How is the parents behavior? Do they have the grandparent to the baby? How is their behavior. etc.

I'm going to try that i like them just going to keep my spider now as a pet hes kool.

My male spider wobbles. It's not major. He's a good breeder, and he has gorgeous high yellow color. He's not one of those dirty brown spiders I've been seeing lately (My womas look nicer than those things!)
His offspring had good color too. Some of them wobbled. Some of them did not appear to. *shrug*

There are other things to consider when it comes to the spider morph. My opinion is that the wobble is not the primary consideration--an ugly brown spider that doesn't wobble is not going to be first on my breeding list over a really pretty one that does.

I say, it's just fine to try to reduce the severity of the wobble through selective breeding, but don't let the overall quality of the morph's appearance decline as a result of it. There's also no point in fussing over people who choose to breed spiders that wobble.
That triple-combo spider morph isn't going to be retired just because it wobbles.