spider BP's and the head wobble

why do you think the spiders have head wobble?
do bumblebees, killer bees, etc. have wobbles too ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pliskin

why do you think the spiders have head wobble?
do bumblebees, killer bees, etc. have wobbles too ?

---

Nobody really knows. Any snake that has the spider gene in it has the chance of having wobble but not all do.

its kinda freaky seeing it for the first time.

its like they're confused when they're trying to get around. they look like someone with parkinsons disease.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pliskin

why do you think the spiders have head wobble?
do bumblebees, killer bees, etc. have wobbles too ?

---

Yes bumblebees, Killer Bee's, spinners.. If it has spider in it the wobble is there.

My spider female has it and the male does not. The wobble or shake is pronounced during feeding or if holding with less support, get a spiral movement pattern. When she is on the ground or moving in tub no issues. Feeding is the worst, reminds of a normal nuerological disorder when individuals deal with ataxia, hypertonia etc, excitement, speed of movement etc with usually increase the visual component of their movement disorder or issue.

That said, it has been pretty much proven that spider BPs (and any subsequent combos involving the spider gene) are more than capable of living perfectly healthy lives. They eat, they poop, they breed, they thermoregulate, they hide; essentially all the things a healthy, happy BP does.

is it more pronounced if the cross is spider x spider?

or how about if you cross a normal with a spider, will that reduce the likelyhood of the babies displaying these characteristics, or at least reducing the wobble.

I know it doesn't really affect the snake much since they can still eat, crap and reproduce. but I would think most people would try not to perpetuate a genetic defect if they can.

Then again, I've seen what kinds of dogs some breeders produce that, to me would be an evolutionary dead end. Pigeon breeders have used selective breeding to reproduce some truly bizarre looking birds. birds that only fly in loop-de-loops, some that can't fly at all.

The wobble to me seems to be a vertigo issue.. but that is just my assumption.

Most "super"spiders dont live... I actually havent heard of one living at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cornball252

The wobble to me seems to be a vertigo issue.. but that is just my assumption.

Most "super"spiders dont live... I actually havent heard of one living at all.

---

Spider's are considered a Dominat trait, not Co-Dom. However those who suspect they may be Co-Dom- and that the "super" is homozygous lethal. However, we don't see any direct evidence of any Super Spider's hatching out, then dieing.

Now we KNOW there are such mutations: the BP Woma gene is a Co-Dom mutation AND the super (aka Pearl) is Homozygous lethal. Based on lack of dieing "super" Spiders or high number of unhatched Spider eggs... IMHO best treat the mutation as a Dominant one.

Spiders are co-doms with an apparently lethal super form (no super-spider has ever been proven--if they hatch at all, which is highly doubtful, they don't live long enough to breed, and they look exactly like spiders. It's more likely that they die in the egg before hatching).

Because of this, spiders are one of the most out-crossed morphs there is. People rarely breed two spiders together--there's no point in doing so, and it may lose you 25% of your clutch. This is how we know that the wobble cannot be bred out. It is probably a side-effect of the mutation that causes the spider pattern. We can surmise that some animals are more severely affected than others for a variety of reasons--some individuals show no outward signs of it, while, rarely, some are 'trainwrecks' so severely affected that they cannot function. Most are somewhere in between--showing minor ataxia signs, sometimes constantly, sometimes only when young or older, or during stressful times.

There are some people who believe that breeding 'non-wobble' spiders together will decrease the chance of wobble in the offspring, but I know of no records with sufficient numbers to support this theory. If someone has such records, they aren't sharing them. Most breeders at this point believe that all spiders carry the trait, and it's merely expressed more in some than others, and the expression is random -- spiders that don't wobble frequently have offspring that do wobble, and vice versa.

I think the bias some folks have against spiders that show the wobble trait is due to a desire to believe that what is clearly a neurological defect can't possibly be something that can't be eliminated from one of our favorite morphs...but really, at some point, the facts will have to be faced. Until proven otherwise, I side with the camp that believes the trait is part of the spider mutation itself, and cannot be eliminated. It rarely does harm in any case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

...
I think the bias some folks have against spiders that show the wobble trait is due to a desire to believe that what is clearly a neurological defect can't possibly be something that can't be eliminated from one of our favorite morphs...but really, at some point, the facts will have to be faced. Until proven otherwise, I side with the camp that believes the trait is part of the spider mutation itself, and cannot be eliminated. It rarely does harm in any case.

---

NERD's web-site still lists the mutation as Dominant: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ns/spider.html
Kevin himself on Reptile Radio also referred to the mutation as dominant.

As far as the morph being "out-bred" -not initially. He line bred the heck out of it initially. I do agree that now the morph is being out bred well. I also own a Spider that's 4 years old & has never wobbled, he dad is wobble free too. The new 'Bee I got in does not wobble & the breeder tells me he has not produced any wobbles from the sire who is also wobble-free...

Does it mean I won't produce wobbling snakes? Not 100%, but it does show there are animals out there without the defect. I'm not so quick believe this mutation can't be improved through selective breeding. Compared with other animals BP morph are new, time will tell.

I'm really really hoping to do some serious research on this over the summer; problem is, it's not gonna be easy to get funding to research a disorder in a selective strain of captive snakes ...

I don't know whether I think the neuro signs are directly linked to the spider phenotype (ie, an epistatic effect of the gene) or not. It's tempting to say so, since it does appear that the spider gene is most likely homozygous lethal. However, even if the "neuro gene" were simply VERY tightly linked to the spider gene, that could still cause the same trends in terms of gene expression. In theory, if the genes are separate, and just super-tightly linked, we should eventually see spiders that don't wobble, with enough outcrossing. If the genes are REALLY tight, however, that might be a one in 1000 chance ...

It's pretty much impossible to know exactly why, physiologically, these animals show these signs, without doing various imaging and diagnostic tests (which, AFAIK, have never been done.) My guess would be either a cerebellar or vestibular lesion. To me, it sounds a lot like cerebellar abiotrophy (where the animal is born with a normal cerebellum, which degenerates over time), or cerebellar hypoplasia (born with a cerebellum already degenerated). That's a total guess, though; in fact, it may not even be cerebellar or vestibular, but could be degenerative demyelination, or maybe some other peripheral neuropathy. (I tend to doubt that simply because it doesn't seem to usually get THAT much worse as the animal ages -- sometimes even improves, from what I've read, but who knows.)

I think that the fact that the signs seem to be so heavily precipitated by stress/heightened arousal is very telling. To me, that suggests something cerebellar and not peripheral ... But hell, what do I know; my class got such a crappy average on our neuro exam Monday I'm surprised I even know that snakes have brains. :rofl: