What do you consider quality?

What do ypu feel is the primary aspect or aspects of quality(not necessarily what you look for when purchasing but as an overall standard)? thought of this when seeing threads where where people talk about "quality" when purchasing a bp. I know this is a subjective topic so what are the factors that equal quality to you. I personally think a healthy well proportioned bp can stand alone quality, but of course when purchasing then color and pattern would also have to come into account according to my taste. and the breeder doesn't seem to have great importance to me as long as he/she is putting the animal before the profit. Your thoughts?

to me when I think quality I ask myself a few questions..

1: is it a great example of the morph; I.E will does it look like a Cinni or a dark normal.
2: Does the animal look healthy; Clear eyes, hydrated, no RI or other issues.
3: Is the breeder a friendly, knowageable, helpfull, person. Or are they sitting on their duff texting and not even engaging their customers/
4: Professional setup at a show (if that's where I'm buying). A breeder that takes the time for a professional set up takes the time to produce quality animals. Now it doesn't have to be big breeder style but at least take the time to throw a sheet over the table..

read post above. lol.

My number one is the animal itself. Does the animal represent the morph well. Are the colors and patterns going to fit in with my plans and other animals I currently own.

My number 2 is the reputation of the breeder. Do I trust buying from this person. If something goes wrong do I have confidence that the breeder will make the situation right.

Both of these things are very important to me and determine not only the quality of the animal but quality of the entire experience and whether I will purchase from an individual again.

The Animal:
I want the animal to be healthy, in good condition, feeding well! I do research on the morph before I buy & look to see what aspects I like & what plays well into my current projects.

Then I look for the best example of that I can find, if I see it in the clutch I pick the best FEEDER in the group, this isn't always the prettiest animal. I learned this the hard way.

The Seller:
I do expect the breeder/seller to be honest, to answer my questions promptly... and yes to have MANNERS (pet peeve). There are some folks on-line, in forums who are rude, even abusive in their posts. Although some have fantastic animals- they will NOT get my business.

There are folks who by their posts or by checking the BOI who either dodge problems instead of resolve them: LIE, CHEAT or show they lack integrity; or fail to practice good quarantine. They will not get my business either.

As a buyer I have responsiblities to uphold as well:
To be clear with the seller on payment terms & to be ON-TIME with payments! (I do most purchases on payment plans or trades).

To give detailed shipping info. I have my animals sent to the local facilities so I can pick them up as they arrive. I also call &/or e-mail the seller to let them know I got the animal ok even if there's no issues after I inspect it & double check the sex.

THEN I post feedback in the BOI- good guys deserve their due too!

Quality in a snake is to find the best example of the morph I am looking for, but it’s not the only thing I am looking at when buying either, I also look at whom the seller is (there how people I would not buy from regardless of the quality of their animal and/or price) and then I look at prices.

Other. I guess you are implying for a breeder. Being a pet owner, I look for a snake that is healthy, eats good, and is easily handled. I wouldn't want anything other than a normal. I think they are the prettiest anyway.

I'm surprised that so many people voted "no single aspect"

Sometimes with selective breeding, a truly spectacular specimen really only exhibits one "single aspect" to such a degree, that I consider it a truely high quality animal. A clown might just be another clown, but the extraordinarily reduced pattern clown stands out, with one single aspect making the difference between "another nice BP" and "extaordinary".

Granted, being awesome in many regards is preferred, but I do think that "single aspect excellence" animals, in many cases, can be defined as "true quality animals"

Obviously, the animal has to be in good apparent health, feeding well, and in a clean environment. Nothing turns me off more than poor conditions--except seller rudeness or ignorance.

What I look for is the WOW factor--good color, unusual or symmetrical pattern, reduced pattern gets my attention, and no obvious defects that could be passed down to offspring. Robin's lesser and pastel, and Waltah's & BigLu's cinnamons, and anything Brock has made lately have all been outstanding. Those are morphs that I wouldn't think twice about paying a few extra bucks for.

It's not just one characteristic; it's the whole picture.

Color and pattern are important, of course, but there are also some things you didn't mention.

Temperament is a big one, for me. I do not consider a defensive, snappy ball python to be high quality, at least not something I want breeding in my collection.

Even more important than ANY of the above is feeding record--a poor feeder is NOT a high-quality animal, no matter what it looks like.

I don't care about the breeder, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a disproportional ball python, at least not within the bounds of normal snake structure.

Obviously health and lack of deformities goes without saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

I'm surprised that so many people voted "no single aspect"

Sometimes with selective breeding, a truly spectacular specimen really only exhibits one "single aspect" to such a degree, that I consider it a truely high quality animal. A clown might just be another clown, but the extraordinarily reduced pattern clown stands out, with one single aspect making the difference between "another nice BP" and "extaordinary".

Granted, being awesome in many regards is preferred, but I do think that "single aspect excellence" animals, in many cases, can be defined as "true quality animals"

---

Would you consider an emaciated extraordinarily reduced patterned clown to be high quality?

That's why I chose that there was not one single aspect to the quality.

I am extremely picky about the animals that I add to my collection, including the normals. I choose my normals based on their colors and patterns as well. For example, I only pair my pastel with my lightest females, those that also have nice blushing heads as well. He doesn't get thrown in with just any female with the goal of "just" producing pastels. I also want to produce the nicest examples of the morphs that I'm working with.

I also agree with Deb and Deborah - there are also some people who I would never do business with, no matter how nice their animals may be.

As to temperment? I'm less concerned about that. I think a lot of temperment also comes from more than just genetics. I have been bitten by my adults, less than 5 times, and each time, it was because I was careless and startled them.

However, my friends Deborah and Ed (Freakie Frog) both seem to get bit on a higher frequency than I do. One theory that we've come up with is that both of them have a higher body temperature than most people do. I sat at NERD holding a black pastel, calm as can be in my hands. Deb comes to sit next to me and it starts swinging at her. We did "temp gun" Deb and she was giving off more heat than I was.

I believe that Ed has also temp gunned himself and he also gives off more heat. He has a female of mine on loan that has NEVER bitten anyone - until he got her. Now she likes to play "let's see how fast Ed can move" with him.

Of course this is just our own "theory" on why the two of them get bitten at a higher frequency than other keepers do. Both are confident handlers, the only difference that we can discern is the amount of body heat that they give off.

Robin I have temped myself with my gun and have found that my surface temp is much higher than most people. I simply think that these animals get use to seeing the heat signature of "people" and learn that they are ok, then along comes a critter thats hotter and they get defencive.

Getting bite sucks...but you deal with it..I try to aviod it at all cost but there are time that your just not paying attention or it can be avoided.

On the animal-
Color and pattern is a bit lower on the scale for me than the overall health of the animal-no RI, no mites, active, and regarding temperament I actually look for proper defense mechanisms when I first touch/hold the animal--does it curl up? Flinch? If not, is it at least curious as to who I am? To me, an animal that doesn't react at all to a stranger is LESS normal that one that does--of course, it can't go overboard on it. You can usually tame a snake down... but a listless or unresponsive creature may be signs of a bigger health problem.

For the seller-
Honesty first and foremost, what it's eating, how old it is, and all the basics. I understand that it can be exhausting so how enthusiastic the person is doesn't really affect me, but I don't like it when someone tries to push an animal onto me.

Something extra that I look for--at a show during the colder months, when I handle the animal, is it WARM? As in, did the breeder/seller take the extra time to install either a heat lamp or under heater? Those hours (or sometimes even days) that the animals are put on display in a less than optimum ambient temp room can cause RI, even if it wasn't sick when they brought it in, it can be sick when you bring it home and that's a battle I'd avoid if I could.

Reputation to me is not as important--as long as the person has no BAD reputation, it doesn't matter if he's a big or small breeder.

I've never bought online before (way too paranoid for that) so the only thing I can say is about buying in person.

I firmly believe that temperament is inherent--my newly hatched babies run the gamut of personality from very laid-back, outgoing, and curious, to little spitfires that try to kill anything that comes near them with their teeth.
These personalities evolve over time--most of the nervous snakes, and some of the bitey ones, will calm down as they grow older. But I have never seen this happen the other way around.

If a snake is going to be a pain as an adult, it pretty much is sure to have started out that way, too.

Whether genetics play a role in this remains to be seen, but they have been PROVEN to play a role in other species, so it's a fair assumption that they DO.
Because of that, I will not breed a snake with a bad temperament--I don't keep them. I don't hold back bad-tempered hatchlings. I don't BUY bad-tempered snakes.

For me, a quality captive ball python is one that is temperamentally suited to be a captive, and a pet. That is an essential component to 'quality' for any animal intended to be a pet. I do not buy into the idea that 'these are wild animals', and that defensive bites are something you just have to put up with. Most of my snakes have never bitten in self-defense. We keep these animals as pets--we're responsible for choosing which ones to breed, and for selecting traits that will make them better PETS--in other words, we are responsible for continuing the process of DOMESTICATING them.

Accidental feeding bites are completely different. Actually startling a snake is also completely different--your pet dog or cat may bite you if you startle them badly enough. But biting when they see you coming--that's not startlement. I do not believe adult CBB ball pythons that display a willingness to bite rather than be handled are high quality.

For me, in looking for a prime specimen, I primarily look for brilliant colors/hues/patterns.

Personality does not matter much to me. It depends on the species; for example, all ball pythons will tame down with proper care.

Health is also not a top priority (in this hypothetical situation of course); see, when I buy any animal, of course I want a perfectly healthy specimen. The thing is, if someone is trying to sell a "quality animal", great health is a prerequisite.

It's like those fancy dog/cat/chicken/horse judging contests. Entrants are required to be in great shape and healthy obviously. For me, it's the beauty, and the colors that please me the most.

I'm just WAITING for actual reptile shows--ones with judges. <lol>

I agree that temperament is important and that a large part of it is genetic but personally, I'm not looking for a BP that's going after everything that moves or one that doesn't seem to move at all, but one that when handled/touched/disturbed does exhibit at least to some degree defense mechanisms. Something about a snake that doesn't react at all bothers me, I end up questioning whether it's feeding response is up to par and whether it's unresponsive for a medical reason.

I'm really on the fence about whether it's our job to genetically domesticate a snake--I'm going to use a dog as an example. I'm not fond of the extremely domesticated neonatal dogs. I'm more of a chow-chow akita shar-pei rottie pitbull dobie type person. Yeah, those dogs can be dangerous if not properly trained and cared for, but I like their independence and spunkiness, and wouldn't want them to be completely docile in the future, which, if genetically nipping off aggression at every turn, may just do. As long as they have proper responses towards strangers (as in, not to trust them immediately but not biting them) a little extra training and taming doesn't bother me.

A dog that unceasingly seeks to please /everyone/ can get on some people's (especially my) nerves.

I think, just like with any wild animal, we can't say "let's try to domesticate it to as docile as it can go so it makes a good pet." There are ups and downs to an animal that has both its wild nature and its domesticated side--if someone's never seen or dealt with a defensive snake before, that person likely will not be able to deal with or even recognize one in the future if they so happen to come across one. Then it goes onto the whole bigger picture of when an animal is too docile, too tame, to the point where it won't even walk away if something is bothering it (like children, or even adults) it can teach the person to be inconsiderate, because they won't be able to read actions and expressions which will become detrimental to them socially in the future.

On the other hand, we'd have less of those dogs-eating-baby stories too.

To me, quality is "Is this animal a prime example of it's species?" and that includes its temperament as well.

if your snake isnt smashing its food then to me it doesn't matter if its a pastel or a super pastel

Well, let's face it--we're making pets, not zoological display animals. Ball pythons are renowned for having generally docile temperaments. If someone wants a snake that isn't quite so placid, maybe they should consider a dwarf Burm. ^_^

Because these are pets, and are always going to be pets, and we're altering them genetically to make them more aesthetically pleasing, why would we want to neglect the traits that will make them more suitable captives? That means a good temperament so the animal can be easily handled, and good, consistant eating habits.

It has NOT been my experience that docile, curious, outgoing snakes are poor feeders. I've had more problems with the very defensive ones being poor feeders. I will say that I have had problem feeders with every personality type, though--I don't think there is a direct relationship. Thankfully, problem feeders in general aren't too common.

My most docile female, who went to visit school children as an ambassador animal, is a real monster when food is presented--watch your limbs, and use the long tongs! <lol>

I guess I just haven't run across enough truly "non-docile" ball pythons to give temperment a second thought. As a rule, ball pythons are a docile species, and those that aren't are rare.

Other than defensive hatchlings, my entire collection is pretty docile, although I didn't select them for their temperments.

For me, #1 is health. I want an animal that is strong, robust, feeding well, and just overall in great condition. Sound genetics/breeding is a bonus, if it has healthy parents with minimal inbreeding the better.

#2 would be how well it represents the given morph or what hets and such it has. Or how well it would fit into any projects I have going on. Most of the time it's usually whatever catches my eye as the nicest example of color and pattern.

#3 I'm sticking breeder in here, but really that can change determining on where I'm shopping or what I'm looking for. If I'm at a show I'll make sure they know they're stuff, but if they're not a big name it doesn't matter to me. I want whoever honestly cares about their animals, and can answer any questions I throw at them. Having that face to face interaction helps a lot.
Online I do tend to drift towards more reputable breeders, because that face to face time is lost and I can only gather what I can from their website or whatever reviews/opinions I can find.

Price is totally not an issue, I'll pay whatever I need for a good quality animal :)

Quality is a relatively general term. :) Kinda like "nice", it gets tossed around a lot..

I personally think that quality, means that a snake is healthy, free from defects, shiny-eyes with no retained caps.. clear-skinned (no marks or scars) and grade-A, A-1 Nice. Feeding regularly, and if it is a morph, posessing the necessary traits of such morph.

A quality snake is a snak that's ready to be sold. A non-quality snake would be one that needs rehab, needs skin to be soaked off; etc. To me, at least!

Genetics are very important.

Then the representation of the animal itself. Color as well as physical aspects all matter.

There is no single thing that you can place, that makes an animal quality, without a need of any of the others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm just WAITING for actual reptile shows--ones with judges. <lol>

---

haha seriously.. and a written standard for each morph... next there would be a registry for them lol...:rolleyes:

At least iHerp has a lineage database now--really, it's about time. The corn snake registry Kathy Love started is a great idea, but we DO need one for ball pythons. It's not about being overly fussy--it's about actually tracking bloodlines and ancestry. It's an important tool for breeders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I guess I just haven't run across enough truly "non-docile" ball pythons to give temperment a second thought.

---

Just wait until you do. It's such a treat. lol...

Woah, I think we're basically talking about the same thing, only using different words.

I'm not looking for a snake that tries to tag everything in sight, defense or not--but for it to at least show a reaction towards its surroundings, which includes being curious/outgoing. A curious/active/paying attention/even a slightly shyer snake, if nothing else, tells me it's more normal and a safer bet than the odd one out that sits there unmoving or slow when you reach for it.

However, my main concern is sometimes, to people who can't tell the difference (or even people who can) how do you figure whether a snake is just extremely tolerant of being handled by a stranger because this animal is super-docile, or because it has an underlying medical condition? Unless I consistently keep up with how it feeds/how it reacts usually, when buying an animal, I'd prefer to be on the middle ground--it might give a little less room for error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm just WAITING for actual reptile shows--ones with judges. <lol>

---

That would be awesome.

if you like it or not,very simple

and in the poll it states assuming it is in good health

Well, a healthy snake will have good muscle tone, will be clear-eyed (if it's not opaque), well-fleshed, and its skin and scales will look shiny and healthy, with no degradation, redness, cracking, etc. Clear nostrils, no swelling, nothing odd about the mouth, and a normal amount of tongue-flicking.
I don't necessarily want the snake to form an impenetrable ball when I pick it up--that's a scared snake. I prefer one that is more outgoing and curious. I have one funny snake that does indeed just sit there when you pick him up--in the exact position it was in when you touched him, rigidly, without moving. You could hold him by the middle and he'd stand up in the air, lol. I think they're better adjusted if they move around a bit and show a sign of being more curious than afraid.