TOFFEE Ball PROVEN

Just a quick one with bad pics. I had a het x het breeding from the Toffee's 07 babies. 4 eggs resulting in 2 male Toffees
I thought one male had problems as he came out early but he looks fine now. As you can see the white will turn into the dark toffee and the yelow will be the pale cream. They have the messed up pattern as do the hets and original male. As far as I know I am the only one with babies and to prove them out. I will get better pics as they develop. Thank you for looking.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../TOFFEE001.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../TOFFEE008.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../TOFFEE019.jpg
Paul

So are the toffee's just another kind of albinism? I ask this because, obviously, these babies look like regular albinos and have red eyes, but I can't really tell if the original has red eyes on the Urban Python site.

I dont buy it.


Toffees do not have red eyes (at least the pictures I have seen), and the pattern just isnt doint it for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by patrick long

i dont buy it.


Toffees do not have red eyes.

---

+1

Doesn't look like the pic of the Toffee's I've seen.

I could be wrong but I think you've been had..
http://www.theurbanpython.com/toffee.html

Maybe those are the wrong image links?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

Maybe those are the wrong image links?

---

no the images are titled toffeexxxx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Long

no the images are titled toffeexxxx

---

Ha Ha! :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

Maybe those are the wrong image links?

---

That's what I wondered...but he specifically states how the "white" and "yellow" will change color. :confuzd:

Seriously...those look like ordinary albinos. Can we see pics of the parents? Grandparents? Do you have any documentation about the lineage of your breeding pair? I think the market has been flooded with so many pos-het albinos sold as normals that it's becoming almost common-place to have surprise albinos pop up in clutches.

No way. Even as young animals they look way different. P.S Toffee and Candy are the same thing.. so far as we know

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/r...ona2009052.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

even as young animals they look way different..

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/r...ona2009052.jpg

---

I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana

---

According to what I have been told when shopping for Het's the Candy is recessive, and when matures looks exactly like the toffee.. But we'd have to get Pete Khal Adam I know he's seen them to confirm.

I know us'ns down here in the Mississippi be slow.....but we ain't dat slow.....is we? :weirdface

http://www.theurbanpython.com/images...l/toffee/4.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

According to what I have been told when shopping for Het's the Candy is recessive, and when matures looks exactly like the toffee.. But we'd have to get Pete Khal Adam I know he's seen them to confirm.

---

Hmmm interesting.

Doesn't look like a Toffee ball to me...

Doesn't look like one either for me.

May be the picture doesn't do them justice, like with caramel, when they are young. Will see when they grow.

May be the Toffee is an albino with something else that didn't pop-up yet.

ive seen the toffee in person as well as lavender albino's and baby banana's and unfortunatley they dont resemble regular albinos as babies. even lavs are really high contrast. i think the toffe is the same as the candy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by o.c.d

ive seen the toffee in person as well as lavender albino's and baby banana's and unfortunatley they dont resemble regular albinos as babies. even lavs are really high contrast. i think the toffe is the same as the candy.

---

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Toffee start in Canada and the Candy in the USA hence the different names

The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.

Maybe the original toffee was bred to an albino, and you got two het albino babies LOL

Im not trying to be the stick in the mud, but DO YOU have pictures of other toffee babies?

Ya, I dont buy it either.

The red eyes are the major kicker here IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paul.angelides

If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age.

---

More than happy too..

Here is a baby Candy/Toffee next to a Baby LA

Image curiosity of Mike Wilbanks (constrictors unlimited)
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h.../CandyNLav.jpg

Baby Candy Image thanks to Pete Khal (Pete Khal reptiles)
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...morphs/1-6.jpg

Baby Banana ( thanks Kara and Kev of NERD)
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rglow_main.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paul.angelides

The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.

---

Will the eyes also change color?

Looking at the above picture the eyes are not red>:gj: of the verified candys

i think you got some het albinos there man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paul.angelides

The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.

---

Maybe there was a (severe) screw up and they mixed up hets?

From all the photo's I've seen baby candy's look like baby bananas/coral glows.
That just looks like a plain albino to me...

Well I'm glad that whatever it is proved out for you. Having never had to photograph a baby Toffee myself I'll admit that it is possiable that your camera washed out the color. I know how hard some morphs can be to photograph..

Best of luck..

Just figured i'd through in the reference. This picture is directly from http://www.theurbanpython.com/

http://www.theurbanpython.com/images...l/toffee/4.jpg

This snake clearly does not have red eyes.

Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.

Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.

Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?

---

I don't see a need for that if the OP wishes to have Craig come and set the record straight so be it. I'd love to know for one.. Cause I'm looking and getting in on the Candy project and would be interesting to hear from the guy that produce the hets that yes they hatch out white and orange and then turn topee and khaki. Is it possible sure..

Bad camera skills....maybe.

But I agree, looks a lot like an Albino.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by extensive

i think you got some het albinos there man

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well I'm glad that whatever it is proved out for you. Having never had to photograph a baby Toffee myself I'll admit that it is possiable that your camera washed out the color. I know how hard some morphs can be to photograph..

Best of luck..

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.

Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?

---

Yeah.. That's a good idea, as it looks to be that someone is trying to pull something over on someone. lol Lots of possibilities there :) :D

Those are regular albinos.
Hope you didn't pay het toffee prices for those het albinos.

I've seen candy ball pythons in person, het candy's and the original adult candy.....those look like regular albinos....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I don't see a need for that if the OP wishes to have Craig come and set the record straight so be it. I'd love to know for one.. Cause I'm looking and getting in on the Candy project and would be interesting to hear from the guy that produce the hets that yes they hatch out white and orange and then turn topee and khaki. Is it possible sure..

---

I talked to the Urban Python at the CRBE, that was 2 weeks ago. And haven't proved it at that time, no clutch was successful.

This is the first MORPH coming out. He bought them from THEM. Also when you were buying het, The Urban Python added a guarantee on them, so if the gene never prove, you get your money back.

Could the tofee been bred to an Albino, probably not. I asked them if they were trying to get any combo and the answer was NOT YET. They were trying to prove the gene first with NORMALS females.

So unless one of the normal female is a het albino and they didn't know, and by chance the pair was 50% and both proved out, this is a Toffee or the Toffee is an albino + something or an albino who's development went bad or something.

CAN'T PEOPLE SEE THIS IS PROBABLY A BIG STEP FORWARD IN PROVING THIS GENE ?

There is no reason to say bad things on this.
But until it's color change to the color of a toffee, nothing is proved yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Watever

CAN'T PEOPLE SEE THIS IS PROBABLY A BIG STEP FORWARD IN PROVING THIS GENE ?

---

Albinos were proven many years ago;)
I don't think anyone is doubting the OP having purchased het toffees from Craig. There's a better chance that somewhere along the line the albino genes were involved than the animals pictured here turning colors (including eye color) into a Toffee. I think the Toffee ball is amazing, but I think it's odd that even Urban hasn't proven it out yet.
On a side note, I would love for it to prove to be a Toffee. It's for sure one of my favorite looking snakes and I can only imagine the combos!

That's a toughie. Being that it's assumed that the candy and toffee are the same thing, and the candy hatchlings have red eyes (at least in the pictures I've seen), I think there's a good chance this actually is a toffee. I know there's quite a change in coloring from hatchling to adult for the candies.

Actually, I've seen pictures of what were claimed to be FRESHLY HATCHED baby candy balls, and they looked like albinos to me. Apparently they don't start to color up for a while. I'd like to see pictures of these again in a month or two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by m00kfu

That's a toughie. Being that it's assumed that the candy and toffee are the same thing, and the candy hatchlings have red eyes (at least in the pictures I've seen), I think there's a good chance this actually is a toffee. I know there's quite a change in coloring from hatchling to adult for the candies.

---

I hope it really is a Toffee. I'd love to see them being proven as it would be a great thing for the hobby.
I want to make sure that the OP knows that I don't doubt him one little bit. It could just be that it's impossible for me to wrap my head around a change that huge. Maybe i'm just in denial cause I can't afford one!:P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Watever

There is no reason to say bad things on this.
But until it's color change to the color of a toffee, nothing is proved yet.

---

No one has said anything bad at all....just that those hatchlings looks exactly like regular baby albinos. I know I'm not alone when I say I'll be very happy to be proven wrong and eat my words on the apparent phenotype of those snakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlc

no one has said anything bad at all....just that those hatchlings looks exactly like regular baby albinos. I know i'm not alone when i say i'll be very happy to be proven wrong and eat my words on the apparent phenotype of those snakes.

---

x2;)

I am not a big big fan of the adult Toffee -- bland coloring and unknown combo potential for such an expensive animal -- and a RISKY project with regards from recouping ones' investment in my opinion.

Truth be told, I/we have yet to see an AUTHENTIC/RELIABLE photo of a hatchling Toffee. I find it odd that Craig has not made those photos readily avaiLble on every forum if only to avoid the apparent growing apprehension about what was "THE" next big morph 2-3 years ago.

As they say,."That was then and this is now". I don't know Craig, but my advice, given the current state of his project is... SPIN CONTROL -- you need to partake in some. :gj:

The bigger question than whether the Toffee, Candy, Paragon et all are compatible/the same morphs -- it is whether the Toffee exists as a captive bred proven morph??? My 2 cents. :)

Those are not Toffee's or Candy's. Toffee's and Candy's do not look like albinos babies. They looks like the adults but in baby form. I had the pleasure of seeing and working with Pete's Candy male at his shop a few years ago when he first started producing het Candy's. A Candy and a Toffee do not look at all the same. They are two completely different colors. I too think they are albino X's of some sort. They could be possible het Candy or het Toffee, but you will have to breed them together to find out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana

---

Thats what I thought not to mention they look nothing like a toffee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lillyorchid

Those are not Toffee's or Candy's. Toffee's and Candy's do not look like albinos babies. They looks like the adults but in baby form. I had the pleasure of seeing and working with Pete's Candy male at his shop a few years ago when he first started producing het Candy's. A Candy and a Toffee do not look at all the same. They are two completely different colors. I too think they are albino X's of some sort. They could be possible het Candy or het Toffee, but you will have to breed them together to find out.

---

BAM!!!, you nailed it on the head, i couldnt agree more! sorry to the o.p. but there is no chance that animal is a toffee, but still a nice albino just a very expensive way of making one!!!!

Ill belive it once they mature.

Also, why do people say the Candy and Toffee are the same morph, to me they look nothing alike at all?

Just a couple of things as I'm running for work.
Has someone proved the Toffee and Candy the same??? The Ultramel and Caramel look simular but are not the same???
Craig told me none of the females produced babies this year and they were waiting to see what I produced so if they have never been produced how does everyone know what they will look like as babies?? The Banana is a million miles away as an adult from the baby..
And these don't look like regular albinos in the flesh, Lav like yes but there is also the PATTERN difference that is in the hets and half of all the other babies I produced which also seems strange!!
If it colours up then great, if it doesn't then either way, its proven and as I have a guarantee stating "The long and short of it is we have no doubt that the Toffee Ball is a simple recessive mutation and we will stand behind that with a full money back guarantee" then I get my money back!!

I am not trying to be rude at all, but that does not look like a toffee at all... if I would you, I would be emailing who ever you got those hets from and getting your full money back. Or maybe seeing if they for some reason were mistaken when they gave you the hets... and maybe marked it wrong or something... But those look like (I am pretty sure they are) Albinos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Ill belive it once they mature.

Also, why do people say the Candy and Toffee are the same morph, to me they look nothing alike at all?

---

Adult candy:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...ady/candy3.jpg

Adult toffee:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...ady/toffee.jpg

VPI's burgundy albino:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...ndy_Albino.jpg

From the photos they all look pretty similar to me.