Do you cool your breeders?

So, i've been listening to a ton of reptile radio at work lately and the topic of breeding always comes up and some breeders seem to cool and some dont. I was wondering what everyone else does in the form of a poll. I plan to start breeding next year and would like to see what works for others so I can make an educated decision for myself.

Feel free to comment on what your approach is to things. The poll style will allow for the selection of multiple answers if you've done different things that have worked for you.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

So, i've been listening to a ton of reptile radio at work lately and the topic of breeding always comes up and some breeders seem to cool and some dont. I was wondering what everyone else does in the form of a poll. I plan to start breeding next year and would like to see what works for others so I can make an educated decision for myself.

Feel free to comment on what your approach is to things. The poll style will allow for the selection of multiple answers if you've done different things that have worked for you.

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I would not call it cooling per se, but I drop my hot temps about 4 degrees for a month or so, and knock it back up in Feb... the sexy happens and the eggs happen. So I just stick with it. :)

im glad this thread popped up. i was thinking about this recently. im anxious to see everyones results.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I would not call it cooling per se, but I drop my hot temps about 4 degrees for a month or so, and knock it back up in Feb... the sexy happens and the eggs happen. So I just stick with it. :)

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Bruce, nice to see you around! i was planning on trying this method this year but was worried about results.

I haven't cooled any of my animals for the last couple of years and have had successful clutches, however I've also had less then half of my females ovulate. I'm thinking of going back to cooling them for a few months this year to see if I get better results.

I don't lower temps (on purpose) as of yet; not quite that organised yet; but am just really getting started in the breeding part of all this. I put a couple pairs together last year, and got nothing. I put a couple pairs together this year, and found follicles in one girl already. Haven't adopted the regimen yet myself, but Adam W. over at 8ballpythons has a very nice breeding calender with when and how much he changes temps. I will be doing this more as a hobby than business, so if I get clutches, great; if I don't, try again next year.

For BPs IMHO light cycle & atmospheric pressure changes have more impact on breeding behavior than temp drops. My '08 year was 100% bred/clutch result, '09 was 80% (with a few new ones in the mix). They have constant temps, perhaps a slight night drop in the room of 2-3 F happens naturally, but the day-length is more significant. Also when fronts pass through the area, it's does seem to stimulate breeding. :)

My first year, I dropped temps at night and had great success breeding, but did have a valuable snake get an R.I.

This recent season, I didn't cool and got more slugs than eggs.

I'm going back to cooling this this coming season.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I haven't cooled any of my animals for the last couple of years and have had successful clutches, however I've also had less then half of my females ovulate. I'm thinking of going back to cooling them for a few months this year to see if I get better results.

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do you think you could end up posting your results for this year in comparison to last year for your girls?

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

do you think you could end up posting your results for this year in comparison to last year for your girls?

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I'm not the greatest record keeper in the world, but I'll give it a try.

i dont cool. My room just gets colder, but temps in the tubs, besides the cool side, never change.

I just tossed em together when i figured it was about time. :)

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I'm not the greatest record keeper in the world, but I'll give it a try.

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even if its unofficial, im not looking to make you do more work :)

First year out, I started pairing without cooling and have had successful locks. However, I am going to drop the hot spot 3 degrees over the course of the next month and leave it at that until next August as I plan on doing some late season breeding.

I love this post:D This will be my first year breeding and was wondering the same thing about cooling. Keep those experiences coming in breeders... us newbs appreciate it. Good luck to all this coming season:gj::gj:

First year--Cooled, and had perfect results, all females layed, clutches were fertile--only a few eggs from one clutch proved infertile, and they weren't even slugs.

Second year--Cooled, and had a number of females fail to lay, one slugged out, and I got two RIs and one mouth infection in the spring.

This year--I'm thinking about not lowering the temps quite as much as I did last year, and I'm also using BioShield to try to reduce the RI/mouth rot risks. I keep everything clean and sterilize frequently, so I'm thinking that the stress of breeding plus the cooling lowered their immune systems. I'm reluctant to try not cooling at all.

I'm guessing nothing is perfect, we're going to have good years and bad years, and breeding is stressful regardless of temps, so there probably is no winning formula that works every time.

I don't cool, but the room does get a little cooler in the winter, but the hot spot remains the same. I believe barometric pressures are far more important to breeding than cooling. I've had good success with not cooling.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't cool, but the room does get a little cooler in the winter, but the hot spot remains the same. I believe barometric pressures are far more important to breeding than cooling. I've had good success with not cooling.

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thank you for your input :)

Last year was my first year breeding.
I cooled them to 78 day / 76 night with no heat for one month.
I reduced feeding the males to every 7-10 days, and continued feeding the females every 5 days.

I got 14 fertile eggs and 1 slug(9.0 / 5.1) from the only .2 females that were really bred.

I did have one virgin female drop 12 ("scallops") unfertillized eggs two weeks into cooling.

One female was 1280g to start with, and went off feed during cooling. I placed a male in with her for 3 days to try and get her to rebound and start eating again, in order to prepare for breeding.
After 3 days with the male, and one lck, I pulled him out. I gave her 4 days of rest and offered food.
She did not eat again and was down to 1208g, so I decided to give her another year and not to breed her.

This season I have 35 females that are 1500g+ and ready to go, and 8 more that are 1250g+ and should be ready to go later in the season.
The 35 females and my males have been cooling at 78 degrees again since Mid Sept. and pairings will begin shortly.

I don't cool -- but I have my tape set lower than most at 87. My night temps don't ever go below 77-78 degrees. Day room temps vary 83-90 degrees depending om outside temps. :)

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Last year was my first year breeding.
I cooled them to 78 day / 76 night with no heat for one month.
I reduced feeding the males to every 7-10 days, and continued feeding the females every 5 days.

I got 14 fertile eggs and 1 slug(9.0 / 5.1) from the only .2 females that were really bred.

I did have one virgin female drop 12 ("scallops") unfertillized eggs two weeks into cooling.

One female was 1280g to start with, and went off feed during cooling. I placed a male in with her for 3 days to try and get her to rebound and start eating again, in order to prepare for breeding.
After 3 days with the male, and one lck, I pulled him out. I gave her 4 days of rest and offered food.
She did not eat again and was down to 1208g, so I decided to give her another year and not to breed her.

This season I have 35 females that are 1500g+ and ready to go, and 8 more that are 1250g+ and should be ready to go later in the season.
The 35 females and my males have been cooling at 78 degrees again since Mid Sept. and pairings will begin shortly.

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78? that sounds extremely low, and while still feeding them? did you experience any problems related to this like RIs or regurges or severe weight loss?

Like I said, one girl went off feed, and dropped some weight. She was a little light to start with so I just put the heat back to her, and did not breed her any longer.

I offered my males food every 10 days, unless they refused a meal. If they refused I offered them food again in 7 days.

The females were offered food every 5 days. If they refused, they were offered food again 5 days later.

I only cooled them at those temps for one month.
That is only like 3-6 meals.

No problems so far.

I gradually reduced the ambient temps in my snake room from 88 / 86 down to 82 / 80 over two weeks prior to pulling my breeders out, for cooling. The temps were then gradually brought back up to 88 / 86 in the snake room for the non breeders.

Then the breeders spent one month at 78 /76 before being returned to the snake room.

I don't drop temps. In fact I don't EVER let my room temp get below 80 degrees. I am just not comfortable with it.

I'm by no means an expert and just had my first attempt at breeding last season. I followed the instructions on 8ball's website at first but the realized that barometric pressure has more effect on breeding behavior than the temps themselves, my female laid 8 healthy eggs with a 100% hatch rate.
This year i have not lowered any temps but living in new england the ambient temps are naturally lower than in in the summer.
So the cool side is cooler than usual but the hot spots are the same as always. With that said i just placed my pastel male with my spider female and in about a day found them locked up (both were virgins) the one thing i know for a fact that helps them get going is to mist the cages and snakes with water when you place the male in with the female and then at least once a day for the time you keep them together. This and when it either rains or snows pretty much always gets them locking up or at least trying to.
Good luck to everyone this season.

I wont be dropping temps, and this is my first year breeding.

I do things a little different...my ambient room temp stays between 82-85. I have my tape on a timer that is set to cut it off at 2am and back on at 6am. Once I start breeding that will go from 12am to 6am. This is only for the females, males heat is not adjusted. This eliminates a hot spot for a few hours but temps still don't drop below the ambient temp.

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Originally Posted by FatBoy

I do things a little different...my ambient room temp stays between 82-85. I have my tape on a timer that is set to cut it off at 2am and back on at 6am. Once I start breeding that will go from 12am to 6am. This is only for the females, males heat is not adjusted. This eliminates a hot spot for a few hours but temps still don't drop below the ambient temp.

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that is very interesting, would you giving us some numbers as to how successful thats been for you?

i actually cooled last year but i also moved so my females (but 1) re absorbed. but the clutch was 6 eggs with a 100% hatch rate. temps were about 76 at night ambient and heat tape about 87

ive ben pairing for a little less then a month, with cooling and witnessed 1 lock, when the temps were lower then normal because my helix was in for repairs and i was using a dimmer so im going to try cooling and hopefuly ill see mor locks :D, but it is still early in the season...

well i think i found out the problem for me. I threw a hide in and i think they are trying to lock :D

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Originally Posted by reptidude1

well i think i found out the problem for me. I threw a hide in and i think they are trying to lock :D

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Remember-correlation does not equal causation;)....

I notice that even those who are saying they do not cool, are still getting natural temperature drops due to seasonal variations (at least on the cool ends of their cages). Though this may not seem like much, it is enough, in most cases.

I drop my heat tape temps from 90 to 82 in October, and raise them back up in March. Along with the natural ambient seasonal drop in the snake rooms (winter low about 70 degrees, Summer is low 80s), this provides a powerful cue without any significant risk of respiratory infections (out of 100 adult balls, NO RI in the last two seasons).

While barometric pressure drops are a powerful trigger for copulation, in my experience they will not, by themselves, ever lead to successful reproduction.

Light cycle has been shown, time and again over many years, to have little or no effect on boid reproduction (see Ross and Marzec's classic "Reproductive Husbandry of Boas and Pythons" for an early and thorough explication).

Temperature drops are he way to go folks!

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Originally Posted by BChambers

While barometric pressure drops are a powerful trigger for copulation, in my experience they will not, by themselves, ever lead to successful reproduction.

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And yet - in drier seasons (ie drought), many breeders (including Graziani on Reptile Radio) have reported a lower yield in females that actually go on to lay eggs. Those are seasons with very little barometric pressure changes. Ball pythons breed during the rainy season, the barometric pressure changes help to stimulate them to breed and produce. If it's too dry when eggs are laid, then eggs would die, and so they don't waste the energy to build and carry eggs that are not likely to survive (I'm referring to ball pythons in their natural environment, but they still behave similarly in captivity).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

And yet - in drier seasons (ie drought), many breeders (including Graziani on Reptile Radio) have reported a lower yield in females that actually go on to lay eggs. Those are seasons with very little barometric pressure changes. Ball pythons breed during the rainy season, the barometric pressure changes help to stimulate them to breed and produce. If it's too dry when eggs are laid, then eggs would die, and so they don't waste the energy to build and carry eggs that are not likely to survive (I'm referring to ball pythons in their natural environment, but they still behave similarly in captivity).

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You misunderstand me-that has been my experience as well! Last year, which was a winter of record drought in this part of Texas, the number of copulations we had was cut in half here.

As I stated, barometric pressure is a powerful stimulant to copulation. But it is not sufficient by itself. Without pronounced temperature cycling, I daresay our results would have been dismal-as it was, we had a "decent" season, with more than half the clutches we got on the previous "good" year.

Also, it is my understanding (backed up by the Barker's book, Ross and Marzek, and other sources) that balls actually do their mating in the "cool dry" season-that way their eggs are timed to hatch in the wet season, when prey will be abundant.

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Originally Posted by BChambers

You misunderstand me-that has been my experience as well! Last year, which was a winter of record drought in this part of Texas, the number of copulations we had was cut in half here.

As I stated, barometric pressure is a powerful stimulant to copulation. But it is not sufficient by itself. Without pronounced temperature cycling, I daresay our results would have been dismal-as it was, we had a "decent" season, with more than half the clutches we got on the previous "good" year.

Also, it is my understanding (backed up by the Barker's book, Ross and Marzek, and other sources) that balls actually do their mating in the "cool dry" season-that way their eggs are timed to hatch in the wet season, when prey will be abundant.

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Gotcha! While I don't lower the temps on the heat tape, the ambient temps do naturally drop in the winter here. But I've never intentionally dropped the temps on the heat tape itself.

I have the past 2 seasons this year I will not (I always like to try different things ;) )

i drop temps 8 degrees for 2 months and start pairing in the second month and have had great sucuess ( on average 90% lay eggs in wich 85% hatch in the past 3 seasons) i also mist daily when i bring the temps back to normal

A breeder told me at a reptile show your not suppose to cool them only with temp. drops at night.

lance

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Originally Posted by lance

A breeder told me at a reptile show your not suppose to cool them only with temp. drops at night.

lance

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did he recommend doing something else?

We've found that regardless of cooling females or not we still end up with around the same percentage of females who copulated actually going on to produce eggs.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

So, i've been listening to a ton of reptile radio at work lately and the topic of breeding always comes up and some breeders seem to cool and some dont. I was wondering what everyone else does in the form of a poll. I plan to start breeding next year and would like to see what works for others so I can make an educated decision for myself.

Feel free to comment on what your approach is to things. The poll style will allow for the selection of multiple answers if you've done different things that have worked for you.

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If you don't...... BG believes you should. Although with Ball Pythons you can get good eggs almost no matter what you do.

The warmer months in the BP's natural range are Nov-Feb when the average temp is 82, daytime high is 90 and the overnight low is 73.

The coolest months are July and August when the average temp is 75, the daytime high is 81 and overnight low is 72.

Rainfall starts picking up in March and April and peaks in May and June with 5.7 inches and 7.6 inches respectively. The driest months coincide with the hotter months(Dec, Jan)when they may only get half an inch of rain.

The ambient temps in my snake room vary enough seasonally to simulate the slight seasonal changes in equatorial western africa. I don't mess with the belly heat. However, I just realized the wet season in S. Florida coincides with the hot season, while in Africa it coincides with the cool season. This may be why dry winters here can be troublesome. Usually though, we get just enough rain and coinciding pressure change to get things going.

I dont think you need to lower your temps at all. Here at my house my parents are really nonchalant about the heat. Since its texas it will be in the 75-80 degree range in the summer and right now its about 68-75 in the house so when I do start to breed i dont think I will drop the temps.

i dont cool at all! i dont touch a thing temprature wise, i think alot of breeding has to do with humidity, barometeric pressure, and males! ive do my breedings this way for 3 years now and have snake that feed straight through breeding and less chances of Ri. this year were on pace for 40 clutches so i think is working.

regards-justin

I cool my room down to around 76 degrees slowly and the hot spot a degree or 2 tops. I don't do a night drop, the temps stay at 76, less chance of a R.I. with a constant temp. Plus this works for me.

Yes. For some species (crested geckos) it's more dramatic, for others (warm weather pythons), maybe just a couple degrees.